China and Vietnam gearing up to fight over the Spratly Islands

hsarge

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it is ironic,that the first colony to overthrow colonialism was the US; and the last country to defend colonialism was the US.
 

Zayne

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Just for the record, I for one welcome our new Chinese overlords.
 

hsarge

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Why would you welcome any 'overlord'. Remember, China has scores to settle, particularly with the Japanese, who have never apologized to China for the atrocities of WWII. We are aware of the nazi atrocities in Europe. But what Japan did in China is unquantifiable. Also, the British raped China economically during the colonial period. The US was late to that dance. If unified, as they are now, China can be a juggernaut. The other growing economic power is India. And these two are not friends.
 

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I can help our benevolent overlords find Americans to toil in their rice mines.
 

dandelion

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It's exactly the same thing we did in Iraq. This country has not fought a just war since WWII.
Would be interesting to see some figures for payback on investment. The US made a fortune out of both world wars and materially advanced its world standing both times.
 

Attila the Hung

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Would be interesting to see some figures for payback on investment. The US made a fortune out of both world wars and materially advanced its world standing both times.

Indeed they did, however the "war" in Iraq is more of a financial drain on the American economy IMO, if they were making more money out of this venture then what they are spending I`d be shocked, I mean all one has to do is look at their economy to see that they are in deep shit financially.
 

Attila the Hung

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Why would you welcome any 'overlord'. Remember, China has scores to settle, particularly with the Japanese, who have never apologized to China for the atrocities of WWII. We are aware of the nazi atrocities in Europe. But what Japan did in China is unquantifiable. Also, the British raped China economically during the colonial period. The US was late to that dance. If unified, as they are now, China can be a juggernaut. The other growing economic power is India. And these two are not friends.

My guess is that China is simply bidding its time and modernizing their military capabilitys before starting a conflict with a neighbouring country to show the world what they are capable and grab some resources for themselves in the process.

As for atrocities comitted by the Japanese during their occupation of China I am more than certain that the Chinese will get back at them for that at some point, and in the not too distant future either, especially since Japan has been weakened and greatly affected by the recent nuclear disaster at Fukushima.

And your right about India and China being no allys, those two are going to bump heads at some point, and now that China has made it clear that they are an ally of Pakistan and that an attack on Pakistan is the same as an attack on China, well lets just say things are going to get very interesting indeed.

Another thing to consider here is the issue of North Korea, that is a ticking timebomb just waiting to go off. Lot of people forget that technically the Korean war never really ended, an Armistice is not a peace accord and it would not take much for things to get out of hand and quickly at that.

The only reason things haven`t escalated to a crisis point is because S.Korea has shown remarkable restraint whenever they have been provoked by the North, but someday they will say enough is enough and will retaliate, and with China being an ally of N.Korea its gonna be interesting to see what happens and how they choose to get involved.

I for one am absolutely certain of one thing, and that is that within the next 5-10 years we will see a real war involving conventional military forces, none of this soldiers vs mercenaries and guerilla fighters like in Iraq and Afghanistan, and this war will not be happening in the Middle East but in Asia and the Chinese will be the ones to get the ball rolling.
 

hsarge

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How did Vietnam advance the US in world standing. To the world we were keeping a small nation from achieving unification and freedom from western colonialism. How did being kept at bay by a third world nation with little or no air cover for it's troops in the south. How did slaughtering Vietnamese by the hundreds of thousands with all kinds of bombings, more tonnage than used in WWII, gains respect. Vietnam was a mistake geopolitically I.e. tHe Domino Theory; and morally by maintaining colonialism and blocking the self determination of a people. And yet today the Vietnamese people love the US and want strong diplomatic and trade relations. It is really amazing to meq
 

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North Korea has been nothing but a thorn in the side of China. China has been boxed into a position of appearing as North Koreas ally but wishing changes would happen to remove this recalcitrant throw back to Stalinism.
 

Attila the Hung

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North Korea has been nothing but a thorn in the side of China. China has been boxed into a position of appearing as North Koreas ally but wishing changes would happen to remove this recalcitrant throw back to Stalinism.

Indeed they have, but China will inevitably get involved if N.Korea goes to war with S.Korea or anyone else really, this I think you would agree with no?
 

hsarge

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I personally feel that China might pay some sort of lip service, but behind the scenes do every thing possible to stop it, even to impeding cross border trade. the last thing China wants in instabilitymin North Asia with an ally of the US where US troops would be involved. That would only create the chance of a mutually destructive trade war. I would think China would go so far as to create a cabal to remove the mentally unstable ruling elite in N. Korea.
 

Attila the Hung

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How did Vietnam advance the US in world standing. To the world we were keeping a small nation from achieving unification and freedom from western colonialism. How did being kept at bay by a third world nation with little or no air cover for it's troops in the south. How did slaughtering Vietnamese by the hundreds of thousands with all kinds of bombings, more tonnage than used in WWII, gains respect. Vietnam was a mistake geopolitically I.e. tHe Domino Theory; and morally by maintaining colonialism and blocking the self determination of a people. And yet today the Vietnamese people love the US and want strong diplomatic and trade relations. It is really amazing to meq

Me too for that matter. I`ve met many Vietnamese people in my lifetime and they were all very friendly and easy going, always willing to lend a helping hand but cross them and your in trouble, they don`t fuck about and are a proud people.

But I do think that China wants the Spratlys and its vast resources for themselves and they will likely occupy the islands that are the causus belli, and that is it, for now. And yes, they will get cocky and likely throw their weight around a bit more. That is what happened to Mao after the initial successes against MacArthur's woefully ill-prepared forces.

He pushed the Chinese general, Peng, who was in charge of the "intervention" to go farther & faster, and wound up making the same mistake Mac did - overextended, out ran his supply lines, forces not concentrated. The Chinese died in staggering numbers once Ridgeway brought some common sense to the US side.

Which brins up another issue when dealing with China in a military confrontation, China cannot risk losing in any conflict they start. They will move in really heavy, is my take on it. They are being talked about as the next global superpower. The Party has let their citizens know they are a rising power.

If they cannot even handle a border war, they lose face in a massive way. The Chinese military is 100% subordinate to the Party, and will sacrifice men in a way totally unheard of in Western democracies in order to protect the Party's image and to achieve victory.

When you can absorb kill ratios of 10, 20, even 100 to one against you, and still stay in the fight, it is a form of power in its own right. I believe it was Josef Stalin himself who once said that "quantity has a quality of its own" and the Chinese have got enough cannon fodder to bleed almost anyone dry.
 

Attila the Hung

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I personally feel that China might pay some sort of lip service, but behind the scenes do every thing possible to stop it, even to impeding cross border trade. the last thing China wants in instability in North Asia with an ally of the US where US troops would be involved. That would only create the chance of a mutually destructive trade war. I would think China would go so far as to create a cabal to remove the mentally unstable ruling elite in N. Korea.

Perhaps you are correct, time will tell soon enough. I think its more a case though were China doesn`t want to get dragged into something because of the N.Koreans before they are ready for it should a conflict arise, namely with the US. However the real wild card here imo is what will happen once Kim jong Il passes on and the reigns are handed over to his son, who knows what kind of temperament and character he has?
 

hsarge

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I think China under Mao had that philosophy. But this China is winning the war it wants. That is The Trade War. That is the war China wants to win because, by winning, they conrol the world without bloodshed. the world is dependent on the Chinese to buy their debt and produce essential goods at low prices. Both of these keep inflation, in goods , quite low. But as China buys up the rights to raw materials, it makes it inflationary for Western countries to 're-industrialize.
 

green26

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China and Vietnam would be like Ali vs Frazier. China is Ali, better weapons, stronger, and more resources, Vietnam is Frazier, smaller but tough as nails, would be an interesting war.
 

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Indeed they did, however the "war" in Iraq is more of a financial drain on the American economy IMO, if they were making more money out of this venture then what they are spending I`d be shocked, I mean all one has to do is look at their economy to see that they are in deep shit financially.

Ah, young grasshopper, it's not about nationalism or patriotism anymore. Has the country profited? No. Have various well-connected firms, corporations and lobbyists profited? Most definitely!
 

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I for one am absolutely certain of one thing, and that is that within the next 5-10 years we will see a real war involving conventional military forces, none of this soldiers vs mercenaries and guerilla fighters like in Iraq and Afghanistan, and this war will not be happening in the Middle East but in Asia and the Chinese will be the ones to get the ball rolling.

I disagree. The age of conventional wars over petty disagreements between countries is over. The world economy is too interconnected. If a traditional war starts, it will be because of one of two things: 1) it will be over access to fresh water or farmland or 2) it will be because the old world economy completely collapsed anyway.
 

Attila the Hung

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Ah, young grasshopper, it's not about nationalism or patriotism anymore. Has the country profited? No. Have various well-connected firms, corporations and lobbyists profited? Most definitely!

Please do not address me as young grasshopper, especially since I am older than you. As for the rest I know some corporations made obscene amounts of money of that there is no doubt, but what about the country overall? That was my question and I think the obvious answer to that is there was no real profit made in this crusade, quite the opposite actually.
 

hsarge

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No one really wins a war. The allies won WWII. Britain went bankrupt and disolved the empire; The Soviet Union took over Easter Europe and fell into the trap of the arms race of the cold war eventually and too went bankrupt, breaking into multiple states. The US deluded itself into being the police man of the world, and is now in hock to China. No one really wins.
 

Attila the Hung

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I disagree.

The age of conventional wars over petty disagreements between countries is over. The world economy is too interconnected.

Don`t be so sure of that, and the issue of the spratlys is hardly a petty disagreement between neighboring countrys, there is a LOT of money to be made by whoever controls the islands and their recources, and believe you me the Chinese are not the type of folks that`ll say "hey lets share all this stuff amongst ourselves fairly" lol. And if you really believe that conventional wars are a thing of the past then you are sadly mistaken, you just wait and see.

If a traditional war starts, it will be because of one of two things: 1) it will be over access to fresh water or farmland

That day will inevitably come within the next 20-30 years, at the rate the worlds population keeps growing and growing especially those of developping countrys and resources become more and more scarce war will break out, this is inevitable.

or 2) it will be because the old world economy completely collapsed anyway.

I`m betting that will happen within the next 20-30 or so as well, things being as bad as they are economically almost everywhere in the world its only a matter of time until the deck of cards comes tumbling down.