Chris Christie's Idea of "Shared Sacrifice"

Discussion in 'Politics' started by B_VinylBoy, Jun 3, 2011.

  1. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    If you thought this was going to be a thread about how he used a state chopper on taxpayer expense to go to a son's baseball game... think again! There's a much worse situation brewing in New Jersey.

    Governor Christie plans to make a huge cut in Medicaid funding in the state. - Christie budget to cut $540M from Medicaid funds, transfer participants into managed care | NJ.com

    The levels he plans to cut them down to are so ridiculous that it's boggles the mind how any adult can look at them and think it's a good idea. As it currently stands, for a family of three to be eligible for Medicaid they need to have a yearly gross income roughly under $24,600. With Christie's proposal, the new benchmark for that same family of three would be lowered to $5,300.

    Just how insane is this? - Poverty in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The federal poverty rate for a family of three is currently set at $18,530.
    The poverty rate for a single person is $10,890.

    In other words, if Christie gets his way a family of three would have to be making less than half of a single person at the federal poverty level in order to qualify for Medicaid in the state of New Jersey. Or to spin the numbers even further, if a family of three made only $103 a week, they would NOT qualify. Talk about being completely out of touch with the poor & working class??!


    UGH!!! Someone please explain to me where in the hell do we find these stupid people, never mind the idiots who are so disgruntled (yet uninformed) about what goes on in government who would vote these kind of socially ignorant fools to positions of power? :rolleyes:
     
  2. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

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    I'm not sure where you are getting your other figures from, but I can illuminate some other figures.

    In the UK - there is universal free health care, paid by taxation, (you can also have private schemes, but you're still entitled).

    That costs $150BN for 61.5 million people, or about $2,400/head.

    I can't understand why, if it's such a poor system, the NJ figures are $4.4Bn, for 1.3 million, or about $3,400/head - 40% more, yet supposedly better targetted.

    US property does not in general cost more, most labour costs the same - so what is the driver behind the price differential?

    Is it all insurances against getting sued, & legal fees?
     
  3. joeym

    joeym New Member

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    Christie is an obese hypocrite.
    He is only concerned with making himself and his rich cronies even wealthier.
    He is already a wealthy man, why hasn't he refused the governor's salary and donated the money back to the NJ state economy - I believe that is what Bloomberg does with the NYC mayoral salary?
    Christie's cabinet is the highest paid in the history of NJ. Hypocrite.
    He'll keep taking, tanking, taking from NJ's teachers, who's average yearly salary is $40K, so that he can give huge tax breaks to millionaires and corporations, and pay his insiders 6 and 7 figure salaries. Hypocrite.
     
  4. vince

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    But all his wealthy friends are job creators! Don't you know anything about economics?
     
  5. sargon20

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    I'm not sure when America will wake up. It may already be too late. Republicans will try as many times as it takes to eliminate Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security. They despise those programs with the same passion they despise taxes on rich people and labor unions. And they do not mind going off-the-cliff to make it happen.

    Every Republican must pass the purity test if they don't want to the powerful WSJ editorial page or FoxFauxFixed News to vanquish them before they even get out of the gate.
     
  6. B_RedDude

    B_RedDude New Member

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    As long as there is a sufficient portion of the electorate to keep putting these clowns into office, the United States is in trouble.


     
  7. Mensch1351

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    In the only other State that begins with "K"!
    The great irony of these people is that they will do everything to make sure the bottom line of business PROFIT is less taxes -- lower wages -- and then moan and moan that the very people at the bottom don't "deserve" assistance because they're just "using" the system or it's just too "costly." It is obviously class warfare at its worst! How could those who have had all the advantages in life EVER hope to be able to understand those who have become trapped in a cycle of poverty???
     
  8. ColoradoGuy

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    LOL. That's priceless, vince.

    I wonder if it's a coincidence that Chris Christie's New Jersey is the setting for the popular HBO show 'Boardwalk Empire' that tells the story of graft and corruption in Atlantic City during the Prohibition era?
     
  9. houtx48

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    Bull shit.................and you know it.
     
  10. kepiblanc

    kepiblanc New Member

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    New Jersey is one of the worst states to live in, plus one of the most-broke and most-corrupt states too, but New Jersey reached these low points long before Chris Christie ever came along. 40+ years of Democrat (Florio, McGreevey, Corzine, et al) and RINO (Whitman) governorships, plus lefty policies, bloated pension plans, and tax-and-spend schemes, all got New Jersey to the current shape that it's in, not Chris Christie.

    What joeym claimed above about the average New Jersey teacher's salary being $40,000/year is a lowball estimate, which is likely straight from the NJEA teacher's union talking points too, plus, he failed to mention all of New Jersey's way-overpaid education ($100,000+/year) and public sector bureaucrats and union bosses, and that's not even counting their double-dip pension abuses. Also joeym of course failed to mention that New Jersey's taxation and regulatory schemes have actually resulted in a total LOSS of 70+ billion dollars in tax revenue from both businesses and middle-class homeowners (They were people who got tired of paying the highest property taxes in America for 30+ years.) fleeing New Jersey like rats off of a sinking ship during the 2000's alone.

    @ houtx48: Here's my rebuttal to your sophomoric "bull shit and you know it" argument:

    When taxpayers flee a state like New Jersey in droves, leaving behind more government-paid employees and welfare-collectors than those taxpayers who actually pay to support the first two, things have to be done to change that course. It's as simple as that.
     
    #10 kepiblanc, Jun 5, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2011
  11. vince

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    Well... ya. Your point is..?
     
  12. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Spare me the Democrat/Republican nonsense. This thread is about an action that one particular person in government is proposing that will make life very difficult for many poor and lower middle class people, regardless if they voted for a liberal or a conservative. Don't you get tired of trying to put all of the nation's problems on the back of a political party, as if one is always in the right and the other is always in the wrong?

    As for your accusations of New Jersey, it has one of the lowest poverty rates per household of any state. Despite the recession, it currently has an unemployment rate that is relatively on par with the national average. All of this can be sourced by the US Census. Also, according to CNN Money it's the second most wealthiest state by way of median income in 2010.

    List of U.S. states by poverty rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    List of U.S. states by unemployment rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    America's wealthiest (and poorest) states - Sep. 16, 2010

    As for corruption... find me a state where there isn't anything shady going on and then we can talk. :rolleyes:

    $40,000 is a low figure... but roughly $61,000 isn't that much better if we're looking at this from a financial class angle. And it's also much lower than the $100,000 figure you dreamed up with no verifiable proof. Earn More! Average Teacher Salary in New Jersey, NJ Teaching Salaries

    We won't even talk about your Union phobias... that sad rhetoric speaks for itself. :rolleyes:

    Actually, according to the Census the population of New Jersey is up from its previous number of 8,414,350 in 2000 to 8,791,894 in 2010. That's an increase of over 300,000 people in ten years. It's one of the 15 most populated states in the country. So no, people aren't "fleeing like rats" as you claim. List of U.S. states and territories by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Also, according to this PDF from Info USA, the number of home owners in New Jersey is still one of the highest in the country at 2,255,927. That probably has something to do with the fact that it's still one of the more wealthy states in this country.

    On top of this, according to a recent article, Higher-than-expected income tax revenue is expected to boost the state budget by more than $913 million over the next 14 months. Definitely nothing like the $70 Billion loss you touted about... but then again, you brought no proof of that to the table so that number (as well as the teachers that are paid $100K) is under heavy scrutiny for its validity. - N.J. to receive $913M more in tax revenue than expected | NJ.com

    I wouldn't be taking shots at houtx48 when many of your own claims don't check out. But that's just me.
     
    #12 B_VinylBoy, Jun 5, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2011
  13. kepiblanc

    kepiblanc New Member

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    @ VinylBoy: If it were not for the bedroom suburb communities adjacent to both NYC and Philadelphia, which in turn provide all the jobs for commuter New Jersey residents, New Jersey would not have all that wealth to sustain its confiscatory taxation schemes. Get back to me when New Jersey actually has become a small/midsize-business-friendly state so that people like my brother and sister-in-law can actually earn high enough salaries to afford their exhorbitant property taxes and costs of living without having to cross a bridge 5-6 days per week.

    As for the unemployment rate in New Jersey, being "on par" with the current national average is nothing to blow your horn or anybody else's horn about. The current national unemployment average, if the numbers were not so manipulated, that is, by counting everybody rather than just those whose benefits have not been exhausted, along with the "underemployed" too, would be about 14% now - lowball estimate. That's on par with the Great Depression of the 1930's. Gee, how's that "hope and change" been working out for those people over the last two and a half years?

    As for the corruption in New Jersey, with all the "pay to play" and other graft that has been widespread there for about the last 40+ years, it's simply endemic compared to almost any other state. It would be like comparing a leper with sores from head to toe, to my little niece with a boo-boo on her knee covered up with a Snow White band-aid. Get back to me after you have read a book entitled, "The Soprano State" - then try telling me that a similar thorough and comprehensive book could be written about all the corruption in a "red" state like Texas, Oklahoma, or Utah.

    roughly $61,000 isn't that much better if we're looking at this from a financial class angle

    Not much better? So much should the average teacher salary in New Jersey be then? They get three months off every year, two weeks off when Winter and Spring breaks get counted, and full health benefits too. There are plenty of private sector employees in New Jersey who don't have anything as good as this for their salaries and benefits.

    And it's also much lower than the $100,000 figure you dreamed up with no verifiable proof.

    I think you misread what I wrote previously. I never tried to assert that teachers in New Jersey make this much on average. I was referring to what some of the utterly useless and redundant school superintendents in New Jersey make, of which there are waaaay too many compared to other states with larger populations, like Texas for example, and if you want proof of this, then all you would have to do is what I did - watch Chris Christie in any number of videos on Youtube where he called out some of these overpaid parasites by name.

    Now, if you are going to lament my "union phobias" here - then I guess you are just resorting to tired old lefty platitudes. Labor unions have not done jack diddly shit for me or anyone in my family - never have, never will.

    Regarding your census figures and the 300,000 gain in the last ten years - what kind of people are we talking about here actually? Were they business owners, tax payers, and job creators, or just more social safety-net dependents and possible illegal immigrants? I personally know four wealthy former New Jersey residents who completely divested themselves from New Jersey and moved to North Carolina - two of them did so strictly because of New Jersey's possibly unconstitutional "Mount Laurel" decision. (They did not wish to see their property values lowered by New Jersey's "affordable housing" mandate.) If you question my claim about New Jersey's $70 billion tax revenue loss from 2000 through 2010, well, then I guess Chris Christie was just flat out lying when I heard him talking about this at various times in radio interviews, right?

    Lastly, you simply cannot refute my point about New Jersey having America's highest property taxes. Thanks to the crushing influence of public sector unions, this is what happens when almost every single one of New Jersey's 560+ municipalities still has to have its own police forces, fire companies, public works, board of educations, etc., rather than consolidate these services at the county level, like almost every other state in America has been doing for probably the last 50 years or so. This type of exorbitant tax burden has resulted in many retirees leaving New Jersey because they would rather not outlive their life savings having to pay their property taxes and increased living costs.
     
  14. Domisoldo

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    High taxes didn't appear to cramp Tony's lifestyle, and as I recall his business was thriving on labor unions. :biggrin1:
     
  15. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Get back to me when you have numbers to back your claims. We can start there first, and then maybe you can scrutinize my findings.

    Yawn... we're in a recession right now. Unemployment numbers are going to be higher than usual. The point of bringing up the number is to demonstrate that all hell hasn't broken loose in New Jersey as you so wrongly claimed before. Also, you have no proof that the unemployment number is manipulated nor is closer to 14% so until you can once again back your claims I don't care if you think the number is closer to infinity.

    Working much better for me than for you, obviously. But "gosh, golly, gee", after all was said and done I just couldn't see myself voting for a maverick or a pitbull with lipstick. I also didn't decide to vote for a president based on some silly catchphrase, or whether or not he could drink a six pack of beer, or anything in their past that could have been "refudiated".

    I sincerely hope you did the same. :rolleyes:

    And of course, one book without pictures makes you an expert on the situation. :rolleyes:

    They deserve their vacation time, and personally I think they deserve more than what they get financially. Ultimately, they have to teach your kids (if you have any and don't go to a private school) the necessary tools to become successful adults with the ability to think properly. They also in many cases play the role of counselor when parents fail to meet that demand at home. If you don't think they're worth what they make, then do us all a favor and home school your kids. Period.

    You never once mentioned the word superintendents. Here is your original statement - What joeym claimed above about the average New Jersey teacher's salary being $40,000/year is a lowball estimate, which is likely straight from the NJEA teacher's union talking points too, plus, he failed to mention all of New Jersey's way-overpaid education ($100,000+/year) and public sector bureaucrats and union bosses, and that's not even counting their double-dip pension abuses.

    Perhaps you can be a bit more specific sometimes? "Public sector bureaucrats" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

    Unions have been responsible for fighting for & defending suitable labor conditions for people in the work place, which include negotiating workers' pay (so that it stays relatively on par with the constant rise of everyday living in America), benefits (so that you're not instantly replaced or fired if you decide to go on vacation for a week or get injured for example), and safe working conditions (which is self explanatory). Many of these things have become actual labor & employment laws that even affect private sector jobs up to this day. So as much as you want to think Unions haven't done a thing for you, they really have. That is, unless, you can honestly say that you own your own business, your entire family works underneath it and you all set your own rules and regulations.

    Some Census data occasionally does get specific on the types of people who are either born or move to a state, however, it does not care if you approve of them. And considering that it's constantly been one of the wealthiest states of the nation it's also safe to suggest that most of the people who live there aren't "social safety-net dependents" or whatever ignorant label you want to use to describe those that need government assistance of any kind. :rolleyes:

    And, of course... your four friends and their actions represent the status of a state with more than 8 million people where roughly 25% of its inhabitants are still home owners. Thank you for verifying that you really have no clue as to what's really going on.

    No... you'll post a link verifying your claims if you want any shred of credibility on this thread. That's what a sensible person does. I'm not just taking your word for it, especially since it's riddled with the usual political buzzwords and obvious partisan nonsense.

    I'm not doing it because THAT IS NOT THE POINT OF THIS THREAD.
    Stay on topic. :rolleyes:
     
    #15 B_VinylBoy, Jun 5, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2011
  16. parr

    parr New Member

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    Perhaps he should have rode a bicycle or walked.:biggrin1:
     
  17. kepiblanc

    kepiblanc New Member

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    @ VinylBoy: Okay, since you are apparently so skeptical on anything which would deflate your own ingrained narratives and points of view, here's a web link for you about that $70-billion-tax-revenue loss in New Jersey, a loss which I referred to previously:

    Tax Revenue drops $70 billion as thousands flee New Jersey

    (That 300,000 number of lost New Jersey residents mentioned above directly correlates with my previous "rats off of a sinking ship" metaphor.)

    Now, I'm not the greatest mathematician ever known, but a $913 million gain over the last 14 months would seem to me like a drop in the bucket when compared to a $70 billion dollar loss from the years between 2004 to 2008. A loss such as this one would understandably be one reason why Chris Christie now has to find ways to reduce spending in New Jersey, right?

    (I will have to get back to my rebuttals on your other points later when I have more time to do so.)
     
    #17 kepiblanc, Jun 6, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2011
  18. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    There's nothing imaginary about the Census. As for maintaining a "stubborn point of view", you have no grounds or logical discourse based on what I've said thus far that would suggest that I wouldn't be able to change my mind if presented with more ironclad evidence. Although it could be true that you just don't have the ability to do such a thing, based on your own weaknesses and inabilities to create a convincing argument... but that remains to be seen.

    So let's investigate this story some more, shall we?
    First off, the author of that piece is Bill Hughes, a steadfast conservative who has lived in the very blue Camden County, NJ for his entire life. That automatically sources a level of bias that doesn't come across when one usually resorts to data from more politically neutral sources. Can't say that I'm not surprised here.

    It states that the state lost $70 Billion over the course of five years from a study conducted by Boston College. And when you click on the link where that story was sourced, we find that happened between 2004 and 2008. Seems like a good portion of this could be recession related. I would expect things like that to happen during one.

    It also goes on to describe the type of person who were more prone to leave New Jersey during that time - older and more educated, with jobs as entrepreneurs or in the finance and professional industries, and even explained how someone "avoided paying about $6 million in taxes" by moving to Las Vegas. In other words, already wealthy people with assets more than $675,000. Most certainly not the people I was talking about when I created this thread. None of these folks would ever be concerned about Medicaid since they're already financially well off compared to the thousands upon thousands of people who are poor & working class who need it. Perhaps a few extra clicks would have helped your cause here? Or did you think the idea of a $70 Billion loss over five years (which included the first several months of the recession) from one of the wealthiest states in America was supposed to be enough to put me in shock? :rolleyes:

    N.J. loses $70B in wealth during five years as residents depart | NJ.com

    That's fine... but the Census also shows a growth in the state's population by more than 300,000 people from 2000-2010. So obviously, a certain type of person is leaving while others are coming to take their place.

    Perhaps. But why take it out on the poor & working class through slashes in Medicaid to force a struggling family of three to gross less than half of the federal poverty rate for a single person in order to do it? That's the whole point of this thread. Stories about a bunch of older people either purposely avoiding their tax obligations (or more likely to retire) by moving to Las Vegas and Florida doesn't help.
     
    #18 B_VinylBoy, Jun 6, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2011
  19. ColoradoGuy

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    You should read your source material more carefully, kepiblanc... Mr. Hughes is misquoting the actual "loss". Losing wealth results in losing tax revenue, but losing $70B in "wealth" is not the same as losing $70B in tax revenues. $70B in wealth MIGHT generate as much as $200 million to $225 million in tax revenues but it sure as hell doesn't generate $70B in tax revenue. Common sense should tell you that much.

    Here's the article VinylBoy posted dated 04 February 2010. And then, here's the source you quote dated 10 February 2010.

    VinylBoy's source references $70B in "wealth". Your source quotes $70B in "tax revenue". And who does your source quote for it's 'authority', kepiblanc?? Well... none other than VinylBoy's article. Check it out for yourself.
     
  20. sargon20

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    They are poor because they're lazy union workers that's why. And because we love Ayn Rand and objectivism :wink:
     
    #20 sargon20, Jun 6, 2011
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