Chris Huhne- should punishment for evading a speeding penalty be life imprisonment?

dandelion

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The UK news is full of the saga of Chris Huhne, liberal politician, formerly a MEP and then MP.

He was caught speeding, presumably by an automated camera, and for whatever reason his wife admitted to driving the car at the time, so she would get the penalty and not him. Anecdotally, this seems quite a common thing to happen when one driver finds they would get so many penalty points on their licence that they might get banned from driving as the punishment. So a partner or other user of the vehicle says they were driving and takes the points.

Thats fine and unlikely to be found out. The problem in this case was that Huhne's wife told a newspaper her husband had asked her to take the points for him, which is illegal. She did so because they had been divorced, and itwould seem wanted revenge. All very foolish, to publicly admit a crime. So now both have been charged with perverting the course of justice. Huhne has pleaded guilty after a long legal chase trying to avoid a trial. His wife now is on trial, her defence being that he compelled her to do it.

All so very ridiculous. Speeding is generally regarded by the public as a bit of a joke. Driving instructors even teach you to break the law! So how come someone ends up facing a prison sentence, in principle at least up to life imprisonment for something almost everyone would regard as trivial. Much more harm has been done to the nation by bankers...who got early retirment on a hefty pension. In the news today was the results of an enquiry into a hospital which by bad management was killing hundreds or even thousands of people over several years before this was discovered. No one punished there.

So what should happen to Huhne? Serve his time in her majesty's prison, or continue his previous term now as a slightly wiser member of her majesty's parliament?
 

Petrolhead

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yes it does sound bizarre but lying in court is very serious. and when its a politician doing it... i curiously find i have very little sympathy. i was shocked though when he pleaded guilty
 

Perados

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come to germany... No generall speed limit and a new law punishs every banker who acts "wrong" with up to 7 years jail :biggrin1:
 

blackbottom2

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Mmmm those bankers and NHS committing multi million pound fraud and they get golden handshakes and tax payers money and yet there is a big Hoohaa over a minor motoring matter. Something's not right with our justice system and the media circus. I mean what's going to result? Are all of us now destined with potential prison sentencing for lying when we go 1 mile over the speed limits.

It's very true that white collar crime is treated with disproportionate leniency and yet it has a far far greater impact to us as individuals and on our society as a whole.

For this indiscretion the courts need to look at the crime not trial him for being a politician. We have lost far too many good people in the past because sometimes basically the law is an ass
 

Drifterwood

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yes it does sound bizarre but lying in court is very serious. and when its a politician doing it... i curiously find i have very little sympathy. i was shocked though when he pleaded guilty

He has admitted perverting the course of justice, which of course the justice system takes so seriously as to give it the maximum possible sentence.

His ex wife is denying it and probably perjuring herself in the meantime as she discussed this defence when she went to the press to destroy her ex husband for leaving her ten years ago.

The woman is so full of hatred that I wouldn't believe a word she says. I Imagine that when they were together they took the hit of the points between then as virtually everyone would do.

We have lost a good politician because of this woman's hurt ego.
 

dandelion

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He has admitted perverting the course of justice, which of course the justice system takes so seriously as to give it the maximum possible sentence.
I suppose it remains to be seen whether common sense will prevail in the sentence given, but I think even the theory that someone could be punished by life imprisonment for lying about some crime they are accused of, when the punishment for that crime is relatively trivial, is absurd. I would think that people lie about crimes they have committed all the time as a matter of course: thats why we have police to investigate. So this is essentially double jeopardy, and worse, very unfairly applied if one person gets punished in this way for lying when another does not. Logically, the sentence for every single crime where someone says they are innocent but is found guilty would be life imprisonment...because they lied and sought to pervert justice.
 

Drifterwood

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She has the stated intent of ruining his career, and when discussing the possibility that she could be charged, she was told by one of Murdoch's journos to pretend that he had forced her. The whole thing stinks as a frame up. In the meantime I heard two old bitches having a go at him for being a bad husband and father because of his son's attitude to him. But the son was eight when he left, so who has poisoned the kid's mind against the father?

I suppose you have a right to try to stop someone proving you guilty which is slightly different from defending yourself.

I made a decision a long time ago that a happy life was one that had nothing to do with the law and legal arguments. :smile:
 

Jason

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Huhne has committed a crime and of course there should be punishment. Personally I don't see any point in sending him to prison. It will cost the country (typically more than £1000 a week) and raise all sorts of security issues around a high profile prisoner. I know there is the idea of deterrence (both for speeding and for telling lies about it) but IMO there should be proportionality. A long stint of community service seems right to me. And yes this (like prison) would be a full-time committment, so he couldn't possibly continue as an MP.

His ex-wife has similarly broken the law. She and everyone else says that she signed the document that said she was the one speeding. The idea that this was the subject of a matrimonial dispute seems credible, but in the end she signed. It is her signature, and there is no suggestion (so far) that (say) her life was threatened. The nature of her punishment seems to me to have some link with that her ex-husband gets. If he gets six months in gaol (which is the prediction) maybe she should get three months - though I would have both of them doing community service.

There is perhaps an issue around what we would expect any married couple (straight or gay!) to do in a case like this. Huhne had been caught by a speed-camera. The usual result would be a small fine and some points which accumulate towards disqualification. He was in the position where taking these points would not only cause loss of driving licence for a few months but the end of his career because he would have been deselected as a candidate for MP. This may appear disproportionate. I think most spouses would take the points in such a circumstance. I'm not saying I think this is right, but what do any of us think will happen between a couple?

At the moment we're looking at ball-park figures something like:
- trial costs £12000
- prison time actually served, say 3 months Huhne and 6 weeks his ex. £18000.
- probation costs £5000
Total £35,000.

I'm not sure what anyone gains from this. Rather it seems the price for Mrs H's revenge, paid by the state.
 

Drifterwood

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And in the meantime in Courts across the land, criminals convicted of crimes with real victims will be walking away with suspended sentences and community service blah blah blah.
 

bobg4400

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This whole thing strikes me as a case of people rigidly apply the law to the exact letter, rather than using their common sense and applying the spirit of the law. Like everyone is saying it's a farily common thing that a spouse or someone would take the points for you if it meant you were going to lose your license and they wouldn't. The whole thing could be solved if they just upped the speed limits to 80mph imo but that's a whole different thread
 

Drifterwood

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Half the people who die every year, Bob, are kids your age driving too fast on A roads. Then it's old folks in built up areas causing the mayhem. Drivers like Mr. Huhne doing what he did where he did it, pose no real threat to anyone. I suppose that is why people think its OK to avoid the heavy penalty after an accumulation of points.

I had a middle aged friend in North Wales, never been done before they went mad, never had an accident, was on nine points in three months, doing 32, 34, and 35. He would have lost his job with one more ticket. It's bloody stupid.
 
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He has admitted perverting the course of justice, which of course the justice system takes so seriously as to give it the maximum possible sentence.

His ex wife is denying it and probably perjuring herself in the meantime as she discussed this defence when she went to the press to destroy her ex husband for leaving her ten years ago.

The woman is so full of hatred that I wouldn't believe a word she says. I Imagine that when they were together they took the hit of the points between then as virtually everyone would do.

We have lost a good politician because of this woman's hurt ego.
Tbh, I think a fairly lenient sentence should suffice. It's only a speeding ticket, and while I wouldn't do it myself (obviously), ppl get measly sentences for much worse.
 
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Half the people who die every year, Bob, are kids your age driving too fast on A roads. Then it's old folks in built up areas causing the mayhem. Drivers like Mr. Huhne doing what he did where he did it, pose no real threat to anyone. I suppose that is why people think its OK to avoid the heavy penalty after an accumulation of points.

I had a middle aged friend in North Wales, never been done before they went mad, never had an accident, was on nine points in three months, doing 32, 34, and 35. He would have lost his job with one more ticket. It's bloody stupid.
North Wales is (until recently?) completely berserk on speeding. My Dad's had several for doing 36. I think the rule is 10% over plus 2mph warrants a fine.

Altho - most of the cameras seem to be in completely safe spots, where people judge it's safe to go slightly higher (and are therefore easy targets) - whereas in the real accident hotspots there don't seem to be many at all. Takes the piss.

I agree with having them in built up areas and near schools - but on straight roads, with good vision and minimal traffic, it's ridiculous.
 

Jason

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I haven't heard what speed Huhne was doing. However I have heard that it carried 3 penalty points and no court summons, which must mean a "moderate" level of speeding. Speeding is an offence, not a crime - an important distinction. Curiously, had he decided to contest the speeding ticket in court it is possible that he would have won. The camera was at roadworks which had a reduced speed specifically to safeguard workmen, but he was travelling at a time of day when there were no workmen. I suspect a fancy lawyer might have been able to argue that the camera should have been turned off when there were no workmen. Of course the reality is that the lawyer costs more than payingthe fine, so most people just pay up.

The religious dimension of a marriage includes the idea of the couple as "one flesh". I don't think a traditional religious interpretation of marriage would have problems with a wife taking her husband's points.

Mr H IMO needs a proportional punishment. I gather it is going to be a prison sentence, which seems wrong to me. As for Mrs H, well I think we have both her crime and her subsequent use of the courts. I'm not clear that what she did in signing the document was any better or worse than what he did. But she is using the courts as a tool for revenge. This seems to me very close to an abuse.

So I'm giving Mr H a few weeks of community service and sending Mrs H to prison!
 

dandelion

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And in the meantime in Courts across the land, criminals convicted of crimes with real victims will be walking away with suspended sentences and community service blah blah blah.
yep. The only justification for proceeding with this I see is to make an example of him. Which seems pretty stupid, because the obvious lesson to be learnt is never tell the nation you agreed to take your partners speeding points. The other problem with examples is exactly that they are unusual. One person gets punished disproportionately.

I had a middle aged friend in North Wales, never been done before they went mad, never had an accident, was on nine points in three months, doing 32, 34, and 35. He would have lost his job with one more ticket. It's bloody stupid.
This is what I meant about driving instructors: Standard patter is 'you are allowed 10% over for speedometer error'. So instructor teaches you 33 in a 30mph area is not only allowed but required.... (and yes, soemone I know got a ticket at these speeds too)

Huhne's wife said he liked to drive fast and I see no reason to disbelive her on this, plus his existing record, so I expect he was going a bit faster, but the public generally simply does not regard this as a serious issue.

So I'm giving Mr H a few weeks of community service and sending Mrs H to prison!
Goodness,we might agree. Though I think Huhne probably deserves a commensurate punishment for the original crime, which sounds like a driving ban.
 

Drifterwood

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British subjects have the right to make the Crown prove them guilty.

It says a lot about this place that they wish to charge Huhne for exercising this right.

Will they charge everyone full costs who pleads innocent and is found guilty, let alone those who fight the charges pre trial?
 

dandelion

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Judges make themselves sound total fools when they argue this is a vital matter of upholding the law, thus the sentence is justified. It isnt.

Reminds me of the famous case in the archers where one of the characters was sent to jail because her brother coerced her into helping him escape the police. I seem to remember the public outcry at this fictional injustice included from MPs. The principle seemed to be exactly the same, punish someone excessively for helping someone else break the law. Though in this case Huhne's wife seems to have got what she deserved, not for breaking the law but for setting out to destroy his career and incidentally harming her own family.
 

socalfreak

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So...... you're argument is : since one group breaks the law ( for money ), the rest of us should be allowed to break the law, too ? ... even laws that are in place to preserve human life?? Retarded logic.....
instead of letting things slide across the board, how about pushing for enforcement of white collar crime laws ?
 

Drifterwood

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This crime was so common in the UK that people advertised on EBay to take driving points. The points were the punishment for that victimless crime and it was generally felt that the new camera technology was being used just to raise money from motorists through fines even though there never was any evidence that the roads had become more dangerous.

The law is getting wound up because someone disrespected them. My opinion is so what in this case, perhaps millions of people were also avoiding heavy penalties for minor speeding with no victims at that time. Is it fair to make a scapegoat out of one couple?

Man sentenced for perverting the course of justice in Eastbourne

This is what we do - overcompensate against people like the Huhnes. It's bollox really.