Jacinto,
Thanks for this wonderful treatise. I am Methodist and couldn't answer all his questions. Our liturgy for Holy Communion is almost identical to yours. Liturgy means Scripture. Most folks don't know that. The Methodist Church also considers itself apostolic and catholic. Not Roman Catholic. Catholic means universal. And yes, members visit our clergy in the one on one without the veil. And it is basically for the same reason. The Methodist Church and the Aglican Communion have direct ties to Roman Catholicism and Peter was the First Bishop of Rome and even today I recognize John Paul as the Bishop of Rome. He is possibly the greatest person of the twentieth century. His death will be a major loss to the world.
Now to answer his questions from a Methodist prespective. All Jacinto said any Methodist who understand our doctrine, would agree with 100 percent. Christ died for every sin that has been committed or will be committed. Actually sin is not individual acts but separation from God. Anything we do that separates us from God is sin. That makes each of us and our relationship to God as we know and understand God unique. What may become sin in my life may not ever become sin in another peron's life because it doesn't separate that person from God.
Actually in a nutshell, the only thing that condemns a person is rejection of God as God is revealed to you. God in some way strives to have a relationship with everyone. The word "personal" is well meant, but like Jacinto, I don't like it. It is not used by many Methodists.
Salvation is a journey with God, not an event at some church where there is a ceremony of some kind.
The Bible says plainly there will be false prophets and things proclaimed in Jesus' name that are not from Jesus. I am like Jacinto. Homosexuals are people who are created by God and are worthy of all God's grace. Grace is the unmerited favor of God. We get to spend eternity with God because of grace, not because of our own goodness. If we got to spend eternity with God based on our own goodness, everyone from the Pope down would be damned.
No, I believe that anyone who sincerely wants to enter those pearly gates and spend eternity with God will be allowed to do so. Furthermore, God's sprirt is here to give us guidance. And more importantly comfort. God's Holy Spirit was sent as the Holy Comforter to give us comfort to get through any and every trial or conflict or problem in our lives.
God loves us so much that God was willing to suffer the humiliation as a human on a cross for the atonement of all wrong doings of all time.
It pisses us off that it is possible for someone like Adolf Hitler could reach out to God in his last moments here on earth and get into the pearly gates. As much as we all despise Adlolf Hitler and what he did. God loved him as much as any person who ever lived.
I am not saying Adolf Hitler will be in Heaven. I am saying that that is God's call if Hitler reached out to God. That is not my call.
And I don't believe in a literal burning eternity for all the damned souls. Hell is just a dumping ground for all the horrors and inperfections fo all the universe.
In the end God will preside over sheer perfection. Perfection is completeness. In the end, there will be no sorrow, no pain. God is not through with any of us yet. God never gives up on God's chidren. We are all very precious in God's sight.
Jacinto is right. While Jesus died for everyone, that doesn't mean that only those who are "Christians" will be in Heaven. God will speak to everyone. All will be invited to God's eternal table. All may not choose to eat there, but all will be invited. If anyone is not there, it will be because they didn't want to dine with God.
And the Bible is crystal clear. God will be the judge of us all. God alone will know whether we wanted to know God or not. God will not ask any of us our opinion about other human being. No, we won't be jurors.
Again, Jacinto. Your description of your church is wonderful. I don't agree with some positions of the Roman Catholic Church. But I could be Roman Catholic if there was not a Methodist Church available. The Methodist Church owes a debt of gratitude to the Catholic Church. All Christians who know anything about church history understand this. I think having several denominations makes it easier to include more people. The more churches the more ways people feel comfortable hearing God's word.
In closing, Christianity is not about us reaching out to God. It is about God reaching down to us. We should all be thankful that God is a very merciful God.
Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper+Feb 12 2005, 03:09 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DoubleMeatWhopper @ Feb 12 2005, 03:09 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-hung_big@Feb 12 2005, 04:47 PM
God says he'll love you UNCONDITIONALLY, unless you do: The Seven Deadly Sins, Disobey the Ten Commandments, Are Gay, Are Lesbian, yada yada yada.
God never said such a thing. God loves you unconditionally ... period. Sins distance us from God, but He is never beyond our reach. Homosexuality in Biblical context is a huge can of worms that I would rather not open again. Since you are Catholic, let me just say that there is a group called Dignity that is an organization specifically for gay Catholics. Its purpose is not to turn people away from their homosexuality, but to reconcile their sexuality with their Catholic/Christian identity. The new Catholic Catechism reaffirms that God loves homosexuals as much as any other of His children. We are of no lesser value in the eyes of God.
Another thing pertaining to Catholosism: It says when Jesus died he shattered the veil or curtain between God and People, yet in Catholosism you have to go to confessional booths. What happened to the fact that we could talk to Jesus ourselves?
We can talk to God ourselves, and He will forgive the sins of the repentant. The sacrament of Reconciliation (formerly known as Confession) is not necessary for forgiveness, despite what the nuns in parochial schools tell little Catholic children. The purpose of Reconciliation is the same as that of any other sacrament: to bestow grace. Grace is the spiritual gift given by God to aid us in times of temptation. Reconciliation is often performed face to face with a priest nowadays. The screen between the confessor and the repentant is largely a thing of the past, though that option is still available to those who feel more comfortable in that setting. Think of Reconciliation like therapy: you'll feel much better once you put your thoughts into words and get it off your chest in someone else's (the priest's) presence. It's a step in clearing the air so that you can continue your relationship with God without the baggage of sin. Just so you know, Catholicism isn't the only denomination that recognizes this sacrament; the Episcopal/Anglican and Eastern Orthodox practice it as well.
If we try to be a good person on earth, and hypothetically don't commit one sin (which is impossible), we would still go straight to the burning pits of hell. And for what? Because we didn't believe in God and Jesus being our personal savior? That's utter BS, I'm sorry, but P-LEASE
That is not the view of the Catholic Church today. The Church acknowledges that Christianity is not the only path to salvation. Following one's conscience is the way to God regardless of what deity, if any, that one worships. Are you sure you're Catholic? The 'personal Savior' thing is very much a Protestant term. We believe that Christ died for OUR sins, not for MY sins. Our philosophy is that Jesus was the Saviour of mankind, not the 'personal' Saviour of anyone.
What about intolerance? It seems that Christians I have met can be some of the most intolerant people I know.
That is not a tenant of Christianity. There are some who claim to be devout Christians, but whose actions are in direct contradiction to what Christianity is about. The hypocrisy is not in the religion, but in some of its followers. It's unfortunate that they have forgotten what their religion professes.
With what the bible teaches we should hate about 90% of the world's population. Though it may not outright state to hate them, what do you think influences the most violent anti-gay movements and riots? It's obviously Christianity.
Don't confuse the actions and beliefs of some self-proclaimed Christians with what the Bible actually says. The Bible doesn't say that we should
hate anyone, certainly not 90% of the world's population. What the Bible does expressly teach is that we should love others as we love ourselves. The Bible preaches universal brotherhood. Christianity is not the impetus for anti-gay movements: the perversion of Christianity by some of its adherents is to blame. The Moral Majority is not moral, nor is it a majority, and the Religious Right is often wrong. Don't forget that there are gay Christians and Christian-based gay organizations out there.
I'll end my rant by saying this. I used to be Catholic, then Considered a different form of Christianity. I felt like there was too much a weight on my shoulders. I was doing everything wrong, all the time. I couldn't be many things I wanted to be. Everything was a sin, and I felt that if I didn't constantly praise god I would go to hell. I've let it go now. I feel freer than I ever have before. To those who are religious: Reanalyse and Rething where you stand, you may very well find falasities and untold truths about your religion. It may convince you otherwise
I have constantly analysed my religion and my faith. My conclusion is that if you can continue your search for God and for truth through your religion, then that religion is fulfilling its purpose. It is easy to misunderstand certain points about your religion; you obviously have. Much of what you have assumed about the mission of Catholicism and Christianity is flawed. If you feel better without a religion, good for you. However, I feel comfort is being part of a congregation that believes what I believe and that prays with the same words that I use. I welcome offering the Sign of Peace to absolute strangers during Mass because I recognise that they are my brothers and sisters in the family of God. I take solace in the belief that no matter what I face on earth, there is a Higher Power looking after me to give me strength when mine fails me. The Catholic Church has been good to me, a gay male, and has been a haven for me. I have no desire to turn my back on an organization largely responsible for my spiritual and philosophical maturity. You must do what you feel is right for you; the Church is what's right and meaningful for me.
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