Christopher Hitchens gets waterboarded

B_starinvestor

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I absolutely love you armchair terrorist experts, proudly flying in the face of decades of experienced men and women, who do this for a living, who say you're wrong.

Please cite an example of an 'intelligent' interrogation in which helpful data was extracted from an Islamic extremist.
 

B_starinvestor

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No idiot, you wait until they attack and take out a slew of ppl, then research the body fragments and used weaponry. It's called "terrorist forensics". Duh.

Wouldn't they need a search warrant or a U.N. sanction since the weapons aren't U.S. property?

Also, if any of the body fragments were of terrorists [in a plane for example], wouldn't we need to seek out the family of the terrorists for approval in commencing the examination? Otherwise we are violating human rights.
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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I see. If we use big words and correct grammar, only THEN will the extremists begin singing about their financiers and attack planners.

Perhaps Frazier and Niles Crane are available for these interrogations.

If you seriously think that a fanatical extremist that hates the U.S. is going to engage in an intelligent interrogation session, you are out to lunch in a big way.

LOL, you're literally a child. You actually think that the intelligent part of the interrogation is on the suspects end.

This is precious, I want to quote this forever and laugh at you.

We have never made progress of any kind through diplomacy or 'intellectual' conversations with terrorists, and never will.

Its a great soundbite, but it doesn't work. Never has, never will.
Tell that to Northern Ireland.

So, you can either deal with reality and face the unfortunate truths of the situation, or you can hide behind an ideology that has been proven false hundreds of times throughout the world 100% of the time.
[citation needed]

I guess it's time for those police interrogators that get info from hardened criminals to give up and start busting out the car batteries, eh? Oh wait, brown people...er...terrorists are a special kind of evil, and knows no bounds, right?
 
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I guess it's time for those police interrogators that get info from hardened criminals to give up and start busting out the car batteries, eh? Oh wait, brown people...er...terrorists are a special kind of evil, and knows no bounds, right?

hardened criminals are nothing like terrorists. Terrorists are motivated by religion, a higher being, a higher calling.

Burglars, robbers, carjackers, etc., are motivated by a few bucks. They rollover with not too much trouble most of the time.
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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Somebody call this guy, he *giggle* calls himself an FBI expert, it's time for forum terrorism expert Starinvestor to set the record straight:

Interrogation vs torture | Deccan Chronicle

And all these guys linked here, what the fuck do they know? Fucking terrorist loving multi-star generals and CIA 30-year vets, or terrorist sympathizers, as I like to call them:

Washington's Blog: Top Interrogation Experts Agree: Torture Doesn't Work

And this guy who has had first-hand contact with the guys who actually waterboarded Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and they said it was pretty inneffective:

Interview with Terror Expert Ron Suskind: "The President Knows more than He Lets on" - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Good thing we have a terrorism expert of such stature on this large penis messageboard....
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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hardened criminals are nothing like terrorists. Terrorists are motivated by religion, a higher being, a higher calling.

Burglars, robbers, carjackers, etc., are motivated by a few bucks. They rollover with not too much trouble most of the time.

No killer or serial killer has ever been motivated by politics or religion....ever.....
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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hardened criminals are nothing like terrorists. Terrorists are motivated by religion, a higher being, a higher calling.

Burglars, robbers, carjackers, etc., are motivated by a few bucks. They rollover with not too much trouble most of the time.


- Counter-terrorism expert and master of the criminal psyche, Starinvestor(LPSG.org, 2009)
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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The use of torture by the US has proved so counter-productive that it may have led to the death of as many US soldiers as civilians killed in 9/11, says the leader of a crack US interrogation team in Iraq.
Torture? It probably killed more Americans than 9/11 - Middle East, World - The Independent

What the hell does this guy know, right Starinvestor?

Starinvestor said:
Terrorists are motivated by religion, a higher being, a higher calling.

Once, Major Alexander recalls, the top US commander in Iraq, General George Casey, came to visit the prison where he was working. Asking about what motivated the suspected al-Qa'ida prisoners, he was at first given the official story that they were Islamic Jihadi full of religious zeal. Major Alexander intervened to say that this really was not true and there was a much more complicated series of motivations at work. General Casey did not respond.
 
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B_Mister Buildington

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Wow, he sure did tap out quick. What was that, 5 seconds of waterboarding?

I'm going to have my girlfriend and a friend waterboard me sometime soon. I'll videotape it and post to youtube. I'm betting I make it at least a minute.

Anyone else up for a challenge? I'll start a new thread after I've got my video up.
 

Phil Ayesho

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Do we have proof that these masked men administered the technique properly?

Of course not- these were trained SERE instructors who practice this technique on Special Forces candidates.
SERE instructors have explained that the version of water-boarding that they do for training is not as extreme as that practiced by the Bush Administration...
Mostly because it is not as long, nor repeated... and is not concurrent with other physical abuse and stress such as sleep deprivation or stress positioning.
Because they they do not complicate water boarding training with these other stressors, they are less likely to accidentally kill someone.

Obviously, a 'safe' situation where you are being water boarded for demonstration purposes is not at all as horrific as when you are being water- boarded by a group of young jar heads who think you personally crashed planes into the towers and who are happy to get some payback...
187 times.


This doesn't seem like responsible journalism. What if there had been complications and Hitchens died or suffered some type of permanent damage? Would that be Cheney's fault?
Why? Because some guy was claiming he didn't think it was torture and found out first hand he was entirely wrong?

Your concern over this threat of potential death SHOULD reflect a similar outrage that US officials condoned and promoted this kind of treatment of 'detainees' that had no right to due process.

The facts are clear- that zubiydah gave good information BEFORE being water-boarded, and gave ZERO useful information during water-boarding.

It is clear that Cheney and Rumsfeld were desperate to 'illicit' information they could use to link al quaeda with Iraq, and that they were unconcerned that the information illicited thru water-boarding had been characterized by the military involved as suspect and untrustworthy.

They were obviously out to coerce detainees to make the statements they wanted to support their illegal and unwarranted war on Iraq.

And , yes... if Hitchens had been hurt, it would have been Cheney and Bush's fault for putting us into this situation in the first place.

How fucking moronic it is to even suggest that an action we have EXECUTED people for as a war crime is somehow NOT a war crime because 9/11 changed everything.

9/11 did not change anything, except to enable the moral bankruptcy of Cheney and Rumsfeld free reign.



And yes... what Hitchens went thru was mild compared to what we have subjected detainees to...
And he felt what he went thru was torturous.
How much more torturous do you think it was on people the interrogators were told were actual terrorists?


There is no room for moral ambiguity on this....

It was criminal. It was unconstitutional, it was treasonous, and it was damaging to the standing of the United States.

Cheney should go to prison over his Halliburton deals...

For his personal involvement in warranting torture he should face military prosecution and a firing squad.

Rumsfeld, too.
 

SilverTrain

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hardened criminals are nothing like terrorists. Terrorists are motivated by religion, a higher being, a higher calling.

Burglars, robbers, carjackers, etc., are motivated by a few bucks. They rollover with not too much trouble most of the time.

Bollocks. Terrorists are motivated to induce terror. Mostly for political gain. Which is hardly a higher calling. It's just a different form of avarice, jealousy, etc.

Let's take a look at the data regarding the confession rates of "hardened criminals" as compared to that for "terrorists".

Oh, you don't have any?

Next.
 

SilverTrain

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This doesn't seem like responsible journalism. What if there had been complications and Hitchens died or suffered some type of permanent damage? Would that be Cheney's fault?

Wonder how your response would have differed had Hitchens come out saying it was no big deal, that anyone who says waterboarding is torture is a pathetic, simpering weakling?

Let's just go ahead and surmise that that would have been considered Pulitzer Prize-worthy heroic journalism.

:rolleyes:
 

B_Mister Buildington

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Obviously, a 'safe' situation where you are being water boarded for demonstration purposes is not at all as horrific as when you are being water- boarded by a group of young jar heads who think you personally crashed planes into the towers and who are happy to get some payback...
187 times.

so the guy you're talking about is probably Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. You are right, he didn't PERSONALLY crash planes into the towers. HOWEVER

'According to the 9/11 Commission Report he was "the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks"'
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So actually you're not too far off the mark. He did 9/11. It isn't the jarheads who thought so, it was the 9/11 Commission Report's findings.

And yeah I bet it was horrific for him. Poor guy :puppy_dog_eyes:
 

B_VinylBoy

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so the guy you're talking about is probably Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. You are right, he didn't PERSONALLY crash planes into the towers. HOWEVER

'According to the 9/11 Commission Report he was "the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks"'
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So actually you're not too far off the mark. He did 9/11. It isn't the jarheads who thought so, it was the 9/11 Commission Report's findings.

And yeah I bet it was horrific for him. Poor guy :puppy_dog_eyes:

That's fine. But what about those who were detained, tortured and turned out to be not guilty after the fact? We seem to forget that a number of people that wasn't involved in 9/11 in any shape or fashion had their lives destroyed by us, just on our suspicions, our prejudices, and our blood-hungry attitudes to get back at our enemy. If that doesn't make you rethink your views on torture, then at least it should make you rethink your views on the people who actually approved and conducted it.

Either way, our nation looks like a bunch of barbaric asses. But hey, as long as we got to virtually drown someone it's all good, right? :rolleyes:
 

Northland

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Christopher Hitchens is a complex guy. He's 59-years-old. He's an old-school man of letters, a fierce and eloquent debater, a drunk, a heavy smoker and an first-rate intellectual: author, journalist, classicist, literary critic.

He calls himself a "radical" instead of liberal. A former "Trotskyist". His heros are George Orwell, Thomas Paine, and Thomas Jefferson. And he knows his world history like nobody's business. He's a political observer, an "anti-theist" who wrote the bestseller "God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything".

He describes himself as a believer in the Enlightenment values of secularism, humanism and reason.

--------------------

...blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...


Here is an NPR history of waterboarding:

Waterboarding: A Tortured History : NPR



Hitchens is a drunk and this is the one you run to for all your beliefs? By the way, if he's an Atheist, then why are you and others- running to him like some sort of demigod?