CIA Ran Secret Prison in War on Terror

rob_just_rob

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Osama bin Laden brought down the towers in an attempt to provoke a fight. He was willing to bet that the west doesn't have the stomach for what it would take to defeat radical islam. It's looking like he's pretty shrewd.

He and his kind hate our decadence, our women's rights, our tolerance of gays and are determined to keep it away and/or to destroy it if they can.

9/11 was an opening move in a terrible, complex game.

America tolerates gays? :confused:

Why exactly does OBL hate "our decadence, women's rights..." etc.? Are you sure OBL and friends don't hate America's sponsorship of Israel, its military presence in Iraq (now) and Saudi Arabia (earlier), and its history of propping up unpopular dictatorships in the region, instead?

I mean, if you're going to try to drum up hate in a particular audience, it's easier to base the hate on concrete things that the audience has experienced. Many (if not most) in OBL's support base have never been to America, and have never experienced all the awful tolerance, rights, and celebrity culture. But they would remember the bases in Saudi Arabia, and some might even remember the Shah. To say nothing of Israel.
 

madame_zora

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America tolerates gays? :confused:

Why exactly does OBL hate "our decadence, women's rights..." etc.? Are you sure OBL and friends don't hate America's sponsorship of Israel, its military presence in Iraq (now) and Saudi Arabia (earlier), and its history of propping up unpopular dictatorships in the region, instead?

I mean, if you're going to try to drum up hate in a particular audience, it's easier to base the hate on concrete things that the audience has experienced. Many (if not most) in OBL's support base have never been to America, and have never experienced all the awful tolerance, rights, and celebrity culture. But they would remember the bases in Saudi Arabia, and some might even remember the Shah. To say nothing of Israel.


Actually, according to OBL himself, both things are true. His letter to America first listed his grievances against us for our policies, then against our immoral behavior. While his ranks (like ours) are more persuaded by religous and social issues, the reasons for the leaders to provoke such a thing is usually financial. Like us, they are willing to die for their beliefs, but I doubt they'd be thusly motivated for politics alone. My guess is that their leaders are perverting their religions for the same reasons our governments are. I'd bet the average person in the street in Iraq is not any more radical than our average people in the street.

We have to remember, they've had the only secular society in the Middle East for the last twenty years. We didn't attack a country of lawless rebels or religious extremists. Saddam was actually probably better than many of his peers.

Oh yeah, and we still haven't made any connection between OBL and Saddam. It bothers me that Americans aren't bothered about this more. We really are a bunch of stupid fucks.
 

Lex

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Actually, according to OBL himself, both things are true. His letter to America first listed his grievances against us for our policies, then against our immoral behavior. ...

Shelby neglected to include this in his reasons. No tunlike the politicians, he put all the emphasis on your privileges alone, which is only half the truth (if that).
 

Deno

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The proof that some people can't be left running around free, 32 dead at a Virginia university.
 

Male Bonding etc

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Maybe if we call it "enhanced interogation" or something like that it won't really be torture. Maybe if we refer to these places as "special detention centers" we won't be accused of keeping people imprisoned who aren't yet proven guilty and might even be innocent. Maybe if we keep suggesting that terrorists are going to wreak huge devastation on the people of this country, we can get free license to be as inhumane as we want because WE have to be safe... fuck the rest of the world.... except...
 

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It does not work that way. We all pretty much know what torture is, no matter what you call it; and when we torture others, we open ourselves up to a myriad of ills. Our own people then get tortured. Our reputation and standing suffer. Those who torture and condone torture lose some of their humanity. The information gathered in that way is not unimpeachable. Something truly evil does get unleashed.
 

Male Bonding etc

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Call them detention centers, prisoner of war camps, whatever... we are holding people we are unwilling to actually try in courts of law. In addition to torturing some of them, we are compromising the liberties we are claiming to be upholding...
 

Male Bonding etc

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But why do I continue to rant on the subject? Those of you who agree with me don't need more on this subject, and those of you who disagree seem (in my opinion) to be willing to compromise anything to maintain a fragile appearance of American superiority.
 

dong20

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... To hell with how those animals are treated. ....

If you can't see the irony in the bold, you really are as dumb as I think you are. The kind of person who would landmine paradise, just in case a bad guy got in.:rolleyes:




I meant to say they hate what they perceive to be our...​

OBL et al are too smart to hate such a 'perception' of anything and too smart to believe it's anything more than that. Most of what they say is propoganda, as is most of what we say right back at them. I thought that was obvious.

Like any radicalism - Radical Islam needs something to fight, anything will do but right now 'we' are it.

So far as OBL is concerned, I'm sure western decadence chafes his ass on some level but I don't believe for a second that's his motivation. I don't think any one thing is.

How will it end? I don't know. but I'm pretty sure the US (or anyone else) will never beat radical islamic terrorists militarily. The harder we push the harder they push back and the deeper the hatred runs. The less they feel they have to lose the more we do lose, as if we haven't lost enough already.

Where to start?

Moving US bases out of Saudi could be a start. Winding up the ongoing fiasco in Iraq in short order could be start. Sending to trial those in detention or releasing them could be start.

This has gone on so long now, it's hard to know where to start.
 

madame_zora

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But why do I continue to rant on the subject? Those of you who agree with me don't need more on this subject, and those of you who disagree seem (in my opinion) to be willing to compromise anything to maintain a fragile appearance of American superiority.


You rant because you care, and it's beautiful. Also, some subconscious (or conscious) part of you knows that it takes repetition for ideas to sink in. It did for me, it will for everyone else. I had an "advantage" that not everyone else had, so I feel obligated to share it, lest I ignore an opportunity to spare even a small amount of misery in the world. If I can do that, I will try.

If one person reading our rants is moved to investigate more, to delve deeper, it is worth it. We have a large enough readership to hope for that.
 

findfirefox

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The proof that some people can't be left running around free, 32 dead at a Virginia university.

I'm not sure that I see the point of this statement, that man was mentally unstable and should not have been able to get a gun in the first place not to mention there should have been a much longer waiting period. Cho should have been under closer supervision and limitation on his right to arms but that’s because there was reasonable suspicion that a man in his mental state might do something...
There was good reason to keep tabs on this person (IMO)

I think the main argument here is that the U.S. government has gone too far with torturing people and taking away civil rights. While torturing people should never be allowed, taking away of some civil rights should only be done with DUE PROCESS it not alright to remove those rights just because we think he might have done something maybe possibly you know were not sure.
 

SpeedoGuy

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This has gone on so long now, it's hard to know where to start.

I suspect this is precisely the reason things have gone as they have.

What's the big fuss about secret prisons, anyway? After all, torture, rendition, secret trials and detentions are mainly being carried out in far away lands against brown skinned foreigners with funny names. Non-Christians and the like. As long as it doesn't raise my taxes or interrupt my cable TV programming why should I give a rip about it, er, right?
 

DC_DEEP

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Osama bin Laden brought down the towers in an attempt to provoke a fight. He was willing to bet that the west doesn't have the stomach for what it would take to defeat radical islam. It's looking like he's pretty shrewd.

He and his kind hate what they perceive to be our decadence, our women's rights, our tolerance of gays, our use of alcohol, etc., and are determined to keep it away and/or to destroy it if they can.

9/11 was an opening move in a terrible, complex game.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong. 4 wrong answers. I figured you for smarter than that, Shelby.

America tolerates gays? :confused:

Why exactly does OBL hate "our decadence, women's rights..." etc.? Are you sure OBL and friends don't hate America's sponsorship of Israel, its military presence in Iraq (now) and Saudi Arabia (earlier and originally), and its history of propping up unpopular dictatorships in the region, instead?
We have a winner!!!

The proof that some people can't be left running around free, 32 dead at a Virginia university.
What the fuck does a mentally unbalanced South Korean student have to do with it?