Circumcision (again)

[bendigoboi]

The circumcision debate was fired off publicly in Oz last night when 60 Minutes ran a "pro" story, widely quoting an expert who claimed that it should be treated like vaccinations, as it prevents HPV and AIDS, and protects female partners againt Chlamydia and cervical cancer.

This is his website: Benefits of Circumcision - Information guide for Parents, Adults & Teens

You can read the transcript / see the story / comment on the story here:
Sixty Minutes - Home

 

[2322]

"...his website" who? Brian Morris? Oh lord. He's not even a physician and a TV news show is using it for professional opinion?

Another can of worms.

Boo hoo, the transcript is blank.

 

[Snozzle]

He's fired off some lulus in his time. "Foreskin restoration is genital mutilation" is my favourite. Or "There are no deaths in the western world from circumcision."

 

[2322]

I didn't see it. Which is probably a good thing for my blood pressure. Do you know if the show presented any contradicting statements from anyone resembling a physician? How about a witch doctor?

Methinks someone in the antipodes needs to write an op-ed rebuttal and send it to the producers.

 

[Snozzle]

Here is the transcript:
Secret boys business
***********************************************************

Reporter: Liam Bartlett
Producer: Lincoln Howes


Four Australian states have banned it in public hospitals. And, as a man,
Liam Bartlett can understand why.

Now that he's actually seen a baby boy being circumcised. It really is a
painful experience, even for the spectator.

Now, circumcision's been around for centuries, but, here in Australia,
it's no longer fashionable.

Parents have rejected it as out-dated and unnecessary. Not to mention
cruel.

Stand by, though, for a new and heated round of the age-old debate, to cut or not to cut. There's mounting evidence that circumcision has its
benefits, a whole range of them. That it could just help save your son's
life.

Transcript

LIAM BARTLETT: We used to say like father, like son. But in many cases
these days, boys are different from their dads in one very fundamental way
because of a decision made days after they were born. Jack Donaldson is
just 10 weeks old, but he is about to undergo a procedure that he will
live with for the rest of his life. He has got no idea what is coming up,
has he?

TONI DONALDSON: No, thank God.

LIAM BARTLETT: Are you apprehensive?

TONI DONALDSON: A little bit, but I know, I know it is the best thing for
him.

LIAM BARTLETT: Jack's mum, Toni, has decided to have him circumcised, to
remove his foreskin.

DR TERRY RUSSELL: The pethidine is pain-killer.

LIAM BARTLETT: She has come to Dr Terry Russell, who does more
circumcisions than any other physician in the country.

DR TERRY RUSSELL: First thing that we have to do is separate off that
adhesion between the foreskin and the head of the penis. It is just like
really peeling off a Band Aid.

LIAM BARTLETT: This is just the start and, I have got to admit, it is
already pretty tough to watch. Depending on which stance you take on this
highly controversial procedure, Toni is either inflicting unnecessary pain
on little Jack or she could well be saving his life.

PROFESSOR BRIAN MORRIS: There is absolutely no reason to oppose
circumcision. It should be promoted, it should be routine at birth, where
it is cheaper, easier, simpler. Do it and it is done. Risk is reduced,
massively reduced.

DR GEORGE WILLIAMS: We should call it male genital mutilation and call it
by its true name, because that is what it is. You are maiming, you are
injuring, and you are removing an essential body part. That's what
mutilation is.

LIAM BARTLETT: It's an emotive debate, which makes it all the more
difficult for parents like Toni to make a decision. But she believes she
is doing the best thing for Jack's health. Some of the medical fraternity
describe it as 'mutilation'. That must be confronting as a mother to hear
that?

TONI DONALDSON: Yeah, that's right. I mean, it is horrible to hear it like
that and any procedure that you do to your child is a concern as a parent,
but I don't think they will have a memory of it and I think the benefits
are much greater.

LIAM BARTLETT: This is little Jayden and this is Thomas. Not so long ago,
both these boys would have already been circumcised - their foreskin
surgically removed at the hospitals where they were born. In those days,
it was as much a part of having a baby boy as knitting a pair of blue
booties. But times have changed and circumcision, like those blue booties,
has fallen out of fashion and out of favour.

ED PHILLIPS: I have actually oscillated from one side to the other - the
chop or not. There are medical reasons now saying there is some value in
doing it whereas, historically, they said just leave him as he was born.

LIAM BARTLETT: Ed Phillips, host of television quiz show Temptation and
his wife, Jaynie, have just had a baby Hayden. Ed's of the generation of
men when circumcision was routine at birth. In the '50s and '60s, 90
percent Australian boys were cut. But, since then, the figures have
reversed. Now, just 10 percent of newborn sons are circumcised and Ed and
Jaynie are in a quandary.

ED PHILLIPS: I would have thought I'd be happy to be the same as my dad
and my brothers and all my schoolmates but, perhaps if you get the chop,
you'll stand out from the crowd, so to speak. Um, I am going to have to
see if it is such a big deal to be different from your mates yet, is there
any pain involved? I can't remember the procedure and, of course, most
kids are the same, so, I've got to make a decision in the next couple of
weeks, I suppose.

LIAM BARTLETT: But if you thought routine circumcision was a thing of the
past, think again. There is growing evidence to suggest that the move away
from routine circumcision was a big mistake and may have disastrous
consequences for coming generations of men.

PROFESSOR BRIAN MORRIS: The benefits outweigh any risks, which are minor
anyway. The benefits are 100:1 in favour of circumcision, absolutely, no
questions asked.

LIAM BARTLETT: Professor Brian Morris is leading the fight to see every
Australian boy circumcised at birth. He has studied new international
evidence showing a whole range of diseases are dramatically reduced in
circumcised men. It's claimed the risk of HIV and AIDS can be cut by 60
percent. Circumcision can even protect women from the virus that causes
cervical cancer.

PROFESSOR BRIAN MORRIS: We immunise children routinely to reduce all sorts
of diseases. Circumcision is a surgical vaccine but it doesn't prevent
just one condition, it prevents a raft of conditions through the life of
the male.

LIAM BARTLETT: That's why Toni changed her mind on circumcisions for all
her sons. When her eldest boy, Braden, was born, like most parents, she
was happy enough to leave him uncircumcised. It wasn't even an issue. But,
as a toddler, Braden suffered painful urinary tract infections and, at
five, he had to be circumcised - a traumatic event that still has painful
memories. Do you remember the operation?

BRADEN DONALDSON: Not too well, but some of it I do.

LIAM BARTLETT: Which parts do you remember?

BRADEN DONALDSON: The pain.

LIAM BARTLETT: It hurt, huh?

BRADEN DONALDSON: Yeah, it hurt a bit.

LIAM BARTLETT: And that would have put you off going to the doctor.

BRADEN DONALDSON: Yep. Didn't want to go back for a long time.

LIAM BARTLETT: Not wanting her two younger sons to suffer the same fate,
Toni chose to have them circumcised soon after birth. Is it fair to say
that you have had your boys circumcised for health reasons rather than
cosmetic reasons?

TONI DONALDSON: Yep, absolutely. Absolutely health reasons. I didn't want
them to go through the pain and the infection wasn't nice either so, just
to prevent that, that's the only reason we had it done.

(continued)

 

[Snozzle]

Continued:


LIAM BARTLETT: Circumcision has a brutal history and, even until recently,
it was pretty barbaric. The foreskin was literally lopped off with a
scalpel, all without painkillers. Now, they do use anaesthetics and I'm
assured the newest procedure is virtually painless. A device called a
plastibell is inserted under the foreskin and tied off with string. But
I've got to say that, as a bloke watching it all happen, you can't help
but feel for little Jack.

DR TERRY RUSSELL: Now, there's a better test of pain. If you can do that .


LIAM BARTLETT: You're making my eyes water just watching it!

DR TERRY RUSSELL: I'm crushing along the midline. That does three things:
It's squeezes any blood out of the tissue, it also crimps off the blood
vessels to minimise bleeding, and it converts what can be quite a thick
foreskin down to a nice thin bit of tissue that is easy to snip.

LIAM BARTLETT: You are going to cut that?

DR TERRY RUSSELL: Yep. And he shouldn't feel a thing. There we are.

LIAM BARTLETT: I am not convinced that crying is more discomfort than
pain.

DR TERRY RUSSELL: In fact, he cried probably more than that when I gave
him his injection. Okay, you can see how that has cut off the circulation
already so that it can't bleed. That dead tissue will all fall off some
three to seven days later.

LIAM BARTLETT: Did you hear Jack having a scream?

TONI DONALDSON: Yes, I did, and that is really uncomfortable to hear that
but, I mean, that was nothing compared to what my eldest one went through
when he had it done. I mean, he cried for hours afterwards and even up to
a week afterwards he was in pain and he had stitches, too, that had to be
removed afterwards, and it was very painful.

DR GEORGE WILLIAMS: When I had to do my first circumcision, because I was
training, I was horrified that you were actually cutting and crushing and
removing normal tissue. To me, it didn't make sense. And, up to this day,
this is now 38 years down the track, I can't see why you want to remove
healthy, normal tissue.

LIAM BARTLETT: George Williams is a paediatrician totally opposed to
circumcision. He claims in one percent of cases the procedure goes wrong
and he simply doesn't believe that new medical research justifies what he
calls 'mutilation of the penis'. There appears to be a growing body of
medical practitioners who favour circumcision purely on those health
grounds.

DR GEORGE WILLIAMS: Well, I haven't seen the data that convinces me that
that's what you have to do. Otherwise, we have to circumcise everybody at
birth, or at the time of sexual activity, and say, 'We are now protecting
you against HIV, we are now protecting your partner against cervical
cancer'.

LIAM BARTLETT: Because that's what some doctors want.

DR GEORGE WILLIAMS: But they are misinformed and misguided.

LIAM BARTLETT: But Australia's peak medical body isn't so sure. In light
of the new medical evidence, the Royal College of Physicians is now
reviewing its long-standing guidelines recommending against circumcision.
But if you're expecting consensus in this divisive debate any time soon,
forget it. When we brought both sides together, they came out fighting.

DR GEORGE WILLIAMS: A baby has a right to self-determination.

PROFESSOR BRIAN MORRIS: They don't.

DR GEORGE WILLIAMS: Really? So you can do anything to them and that's
okay?

PROFESSOR BRIAN MORRIS: Yes. Does a baby have a right to say 'no' to
vaccination? No, a baby is too young!

LIAM BARTLETT: Can I just ask a different perspective, a slightly
different perspective. Are you circumcised?

PROFESSOR BRIAN MORRIS: Yes, indeed. And I know that George isn't.

DR GEORGE WILLIAMS: And I'm not, I'm 'intact'. We call it 'intact' because
intact you are natural and normal, you're original.

LIAM BARTLETT: So you're both speaking from a position of strengths, so to
speak.

PROFESSOR BRIAN MORRIS: One in three men will have an adverse medical
condition during their lifetime that will require medical attention.

DR GEORGE WILLIAMS: I can tell you, Professor Morris, I've had no problems
of my foreskin.

PROFESSOR BRIAN MORRIS: Well, you are very lucky.

DR GEORGE WILLIAMS: That is not luck. That is not luck. It is commonsense,
clinical, practical. You would never know what a normal penis is because
you've never had one from the first few moments of your life.

PROFESSOR BRIAN MORRIS: That's absolutely no difference in function.

LIAM BARTLETT: Hang on, the doctor's got a point.

DR GEORGE WILLIAMS: You wouldn't know, you wouldn't know.

PROFESSOR BRIAN MORRIS: It's not about what I know.

DR GEORGE WILLIAMS: The only time that you would know what a normal penis
is is when you're sexually active as an adult male, and you wouldn't know
the difference.

LIAM BARTLETT: For the health and safety of Australia's sons, what would
be your wish-list?

PROFESSOR BRIAN MORRIS: I want to see parents fully informed about all the
benefits and all the risks.

DR GEORGE WILLIAMS: Leave the penis alone.

LIAM BARTLETT: Don't touch it.

DR GEORGE WILLIAMS: Don't touch it. Parents should accept that the
original penis is a normal penis, it's a natural penis, and, if it's
healthy, nothing has to be done to it, absolutely nothing.

LIAM BARTLETT: Whether we turn back the clock and bring routine
circumcision remains to be seen. But while the experts argue, parents are
left to struggle with the dilemma and make a lifelong choice for their
sons.

TONI DONALDSON: You know, mothers and fathers are having to make decisions
on things that could happen later on in life. It is a difficult decision.

ED PHILLIPS: My gut feeling is to make him look like his dad and tell him
that's why so, gee, but it's not a clear-cut decision. Pardon the pun!

 

[2322]

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[bendigoboi]

It upsets my wife when the kids are around and I swear at the TV like I did!!!!!

 

[Charles Finn]

what can i say the ones that always want to cut always will.

 

[B_dxjnorto]

I've heard of Brian Morris before, along with Jake Waskett and the old boys club, Schoen, Wiswell, Weiss, Halperin, et. al. Circumcised circumsexuals all.

What drives their knives? Babies, infants, toddlers, preschoolers, and school age children are at absolutely no risk of any of the diseases genital cutting is supposed to "vaccinate." I think they promote this because they know that very few adolescent and adult men will submit to circumcision. It's not the kids they are after necessarily, it is adults. Somehow they know better than the individual. They know that every one they "vaccinate" will make poor lifestyle choices. They cut infants because they can't cut full grown men. And all they have is a few shoddy studies rushed into print on the web because everyone is so scared of HIV. And an ancient blood ritual is your best protection. In my mind that's just evil. But some people are scared enough to buy it. Same story, different era. Read A Surgical Temptation by Robert Darby. Last century circumcision was the cure for syphilis.

 

[WildHoney]

It is insane to me and simply barbaric.

I can not for the life of me understand anyone who cuts off part of a babies body for the sake of asthetics.

I hate the inane argument that it is used to prevent infection. Maybe we should all chop our ears, vaginal lips, toenails, etc off "just in case"

Bendigoboi, it maks me angry also, luckily in real life, all my friends with children are anti circumcision. I rarely have this battle except online.

x

Honey

* I think some Dr's are feverently oppositional to certain 'touchy topics' to feed their god complex and get media publicity*

 

[Charles Finn]

yes makes me angry that they still want to take part of our bodies that give alot of pleasure.
thats it in a nutshell the foreskin is pleasure. sure there are uncut guys that are not clean but in my over 25 years of foreskin hunting i have only run into 2 that were not clean and the one was a slob anyway. foreskin is pure pleasure. how hard is that to understand?

 

[yarraman]

Circumcisers: What drives their knives?
by Michael Glass
October 14, 2000
Circumcisers: What drives their knives?
Unlike America, circumcision is not a big issue for most parents in Australia. Unlike 40 or 50 years ago, when most Australian boys were circumcised, only about 10 per cent of boys are now circumcised as infants. However, it's an issue that doesn't go away. There are always people who push circumcision.
Why?
Fashion or Medicine?
Everyone knows that Jews and Muslims circumcise their boys, but for the rest of us, it's largely a matter of time and geography. Americans usually do, while Continental Europeans generally don't. In Scandinavia it is rarely done at all for any reason, and the same is generally true for Russia, Latin America, India, China and Japan. In Egypt, virtually all the boys are circumcised, whether Christian or Muslim, and many African tribes also practice circumcision. In Korea, circumcision rates have risen, while in Britain Canada, New Zealand and Australia they have declined.
This suggests medical fashion rather than medical necessity.
Of course, there are fashions in medicine. Fifty years ago, tonsils were whipped out by the million. Then it fell out of fashion. Depending on fashion doctors either resisted caesarean births, or performed them more and more. Hospital birth rates are also affected by fashion and culture. In Australia and the United States, babies are most commonly born in hospital while in the Netherlands, home birth is common.
Reasons for Circumcisions:
If circumcision rates vary wildly between countries, or even within countries, so do the medical reasons given for using the knife. In the Nineteenth Century, circumcision was promoted as a surefire cure for masturbation - because it dulled sexual sensation. Later, doctors promoted it as an aid to cleanliness, to prevent cancer of the penis, or of the cervix, and when it became unfashionable to say that circumcision dulled sexual sensation, doctors reassured us that it did not dull sexual sensation. Then, doctors said that circumcision prevented urinary tract infections or sexually transmitted disease, including AIDS.
Over the same period, doctors also said that circumcision did not prevent masturbation, was no more effective than soap and water for cleanliness, made little or no difference to cancer rates, did not prevent sexually transmitted diseases and was more prevalent in the USA where AIDS was rife than in Western Europe.
Occasionally, doctors and lawyers pointed out that circumcisions could cause sexual mutilations, infections, disfigurements and even deaths. It all depended who was pushing which barrow.
Infant Circumcision - agony of the newborn
Australian practice has largely turned against circumcision. The Australian Association of Paediatric Surgeons' view is that routine male circumcision should not be performed prior to the age of 6 months. It considers:

"Neonatal male circumcision has no medical indication. It is a traumatic procedure performed without anaesthesia to remove a normal and healthy prepuce."1​

The reason is clear from a nurse's description of circumcision. It does not make pleasant reading:

"I have assisted with about 200 [circumcisions] and I have seen sleeping babies not wake up as I gently strapped them to the table. One even slept through the betadine and that is cold stuff. So it is not the restriction that is the problem.
"They take a metal probe-- similar to the one the dental hygienist scales teeth with-- and separate the foreskin from the glans. Babies scream so hard that they end up with their faces red and mouths wide open with no sound coming out. I had to hold their heads to the side because some vomit from the pain. I always had to get close to their faces and stroke their cheeks because they would stop breathing.
"The doc puts a bell over the foreskin and slides a sterile safety pin through a hole and then through the skin. He cuts with a blade for what seems like an eternity for this baby and deposits the skin on the sterile tray. The penis is RAW-- I often through [thought] it must feel like a 3rd degree burn with alcohol being poured over it. Consoling is impossible. They shake and their eyes are wide open with panic.
"Yes, I felt horrible every time. I never got used to it. Each procedure looked as barbaric as the next. [With] many, too much skin was taken off or too little (not worth that torture). I have seen infections, too: the risk of any invasive procedure-- even with sterlie [sterile?] fields.
"I get calls from moms who had no problems with breastfeeding and suddenly have trouble. If it is a baby boy, I try to remember to ask when and if he was circumcised. Many of my consults are a result of trauma from the circs. The babies' state of homeostasis is so messed up from the stress that they are no longer able to suck. Every (lactation consultant).. that I know will tell you how circumcision is a major source of feeding problems in the days following."2
​

If this is a worry, and I believe that it is a scathing indictment of neonatal circumcision, the attitude of a nurse on a pro circumcision website is even more alarming.

"As a nurse in the maternity wing of a large hospital, I have assisted with several hundred circumcisions. I am 100% in favor of routine circumcision. The pain the baby experiences is no doubt considerable, but I think it's more than worth it. .... At the hospital where I practice, about 60 percent of baby boys are circumcised, and I strongly encourage any expectant mother to do it. While the baby sometimes cries loudly during the procedure, most quiet right down after being released from the Circumstraint (the board to which the baby's arms and legs are strapped during the procedure). Assisting during circumcisions is the favorite part of my job, as I think it's a moment of magic when a baby boy's glans is permanently exposed for the first time in his young life. If a mother truly loves her son, she should definitely insist on circumcision."
Sandra (US)3
​

These magic moments only occur for Sandra with 60 per cent of the babies, but this isn't enough for her. She's 100% in favour of routine circumcision, and says.

"I strongly encourage any expectant mother to do it."​

This would give her more magic moments. She has a persuasive line:

"If a mother truly loves her son, she should definitely insist on circumcision."​

She admits:

"The pain the baby experiences is no doubt considerable, but I think it's more than worth it."​

The baby's pain is certainly worth it for her! What is revealed is her interest in the naked glans of baby boys, and her enthusiasm in getting more parents to agree to the procedure that gives her those `magic moments'. In her case, her interest in baby boys' penises prompts her to pressure young mothers to have their boys circumcised - for her gratification.
If that is infant circumcision, and that is an example of those who are pushing it on the public, then there is something seriously wrong with this medical practice.

 

[yarraman]

Religion
It is at this point that someone is sure to say that it's part of people's religion. And so it is. Jews circumcise their infant boys. So do Muslims, though it doesn't have to be done on newborns, and the practice is not mentioned in the Koran.
But most Americans and Australians are neither Jews nor Muslims. Most are either Christian or have no religious affiliation. So let us look at what Saint Paul said about those who tried to push circumcision on the early Christians:

"It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh that would compel you to be circumcised..."4
"...they...desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh." 5
​

It is amazing that almost 2000 years ago, a Christian leader, who himself circumcised a man6 should be accusing circumcision enthusiasts of pushing it for sexual reasons. It wasn't just in one place either. Please note that Jews called male prostitutes dogs:7

"Look out for the dogs, look out for the evil-workers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in spirit, and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh."8​

You would almost think that St Paul had seen some of the things that pro-circumcision enthusiasts have put on the internet!
Conclusion
Let us not give the last word to enthusiasts, either pro or anti-circumcision. One website9 was able to amass an impressive array of quotations from medical bodies against the practice of routine neonatal circumcision from a range of English-speaking countries. The American Academy of Pediatrics (1999) said that evidence does not justify recommending routine circumcision. The Canadian Paediatric Society, Fetus and Newborn Committee had already said something similar in 1996. The Australian College of Paediatrics and the Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons went further. They said:

"...neonatal male circumcision has no medical indication. It is a traumatic procedure performed without anaesthesia to remove a normal functional and protective prepuce [foreskin]."​

The Australian Association of Paediatric Surgeons added:

"We do not support the removal of a normal part of the body, unless there are definite indications to justify the complications and risks which may arise. In particular, we are opposed to male children being subjected to a procedure, which had they been old enough to consider the advantages and disadvantages, may well have opted to reject the operation and retain their prepuce [foreskin]."​

The 1996 British Medical Association Guidelines, Circumcision of Male Infants: Guidance for Doctors, would appear to rule out circumcision for therapeutic reasons, except as a last resort:

"To circumcise for therapeutic reasons where medical research has shown other techniques to be at least as effective and less invasive would be unethical and inappropriate."​

Now we all know that doctors disagree on treatments. Even in different English-speaking countries, medical opinions on circumcision vary. Nevertheless, when national medical councils are equivocal at best about infant circumcision and some are actively opposed to it, parents should heed the warning of St Paul and question the motives of those who push for the circumcision of babies.

 

[B_All4show]

LIAM BARTLETT: Can I just ask a different perspective, a slightly
different perspective. Are you circumcised?

He should have asked Dr. Williams if he was gay.

 

[SteveHd]

He should have asked Dr. Williams if he was gay.

Is that relevant to infant circumcision?

 

[dazza_mc]

I can't believe there is so many topics on this! Where I am from, it just isn't a big deal at all. It just doesn't get done. Simple as!
​

 

[chico8]

I can't believe there is so many topics on this! Where I am from, it just isn't a big deal at all. It just doesn't get done. Simple as!
​

We should all be so lucky!

 

[bendigoboi]

I can't believe there is so many topics on this! Where I am from, it just isn't a big deal at all. It just doesn't get done. Simple as!​

It was verging on that situation down here in Oz too, but is now either looking like making a comeback (or at least media organisations seem to think it is sufficiently newsworthy to rate!)

To slightly paraphrase, perhaps "the price of the right to live in an intact society is eternal vigilance"!

 

[B_josiah852]

So let's see. If a female has sex with a circumcised male that has Chlamydia, HPV and or Aids, she will not get these std's. She will get them only if she has sex with a male that has not been circumcised. Right ? Isn't that what is being presumed here ? They can have all the shows on this they want and they can print all the articles they want on this. The only way to prevent getting any of these is to have protected sex or not have sex with someone infected with these or any std's.

The circumcision debate was fired off publicly in Oz last night when 60 Minutes ran a "pro" story, widely quoting an expert who claimed that it should be treated like vaccinations, as it prevents HPV and AIDS, and protects female partners againt Chlamydia and cervical cancer.