Circumcision Ban May End Up On San Francisco Ballot

[MalakingTiti]

This is stupid. Whether or not circumcision is done is a personal decision. You can't legislate something like this. I hope such a proposal does end up on the ballot so it can be soundly defeated. Sheesh! Let's move on.

 

[MalakingTiti]

Another topic that should be decided by parents not by GOVERNMENT when will governments step out of parenting issues what a load of crap

Agreed. This is idiotic.

 

[Guardian100]

The government has no business interfering in personal choice.

Or until, the first child sues their parents for having them mutilated, you just know with the way things are in the United states you're going to hear of this soon.

 

[Countryguy63]

Or until, the first child sues their parents for having them mutilated, you just know with the way things are in the United states you're going to hear of this soon.

I'm not mutilated, just different than some :smile:

 

[MalakingTiti]

Or until, the first child sues their parents for having them mutilated, you just know with the way things are in the United states you're going to hear of this soon.

Stop minding other people's business. Circumcision has been going on for centuries and nobody is complaining aside from a few closed minded assholes, bent on imposing their philosophy on others. Lighten up Francis.

 

[Titsdude21]

The government has no business interfering in personal choice.

I agree....i think we should circumcise any baby who asks for it!

Oh wait....they don't ask, cos they don't talk....awkward.

So whos personal choice is the government interfering with?


P.S
I'm not against circumcision. If YOU wanna get YOURSELF cut, I'm all for it, good on ya.
But i don't plan on getting my new born daughter a boob job, so why would i do cosmetic surgery on my son?

Any Bullshit about how there are problems with foreskins...sure its true sometimes there are...as with any body part
I have feet problems...so...cut my sons feet off to make sure he doesn't have any issues with them?

 

[MalakingTiti]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

 

[JTalbain]

I find this:

Stop minding other people's business. Circumcision has been going on for centuries and nobody is complaining aside from a few closed minded assholes, bent on imposing their philosophy on others. Lighten up Francis.

... particularly amusing, especially when they respond to the next dissenting opinion with:

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

 

[JTalbain]

Another topic that should be decided by parents not by GOVERNMENT when will governments step out of parenting issues what a load of crap

This is stupid. Whether or not circumcision is done is a personal decision. You can't legislate something like this. I hope such a proposal does end up on the ballot so it can be soundly defeated. Sheesh! Let's move on.

We should be able to handle this within the restrictions already in place for our medical system, without additional legislation. How about we require informed consent for the surgery, like every other medical procedure? They sure as hell aren't gathering it now.

 

[Sapien]

Another topic that should be decided by parents not by GOVERNMENT when will governments step out of parenting issues what a load of crap

This is not a parenting issue, it is a human rights issue.

This is stupid. Whether or not circumcision is done is a personal decision. You can't legislate something like this. I hope such a proposal does end up on the ballot so it can be soundly defeated. Sheesh! Let's move on.

Female circumcision has been going on for centuries too. It has been legislated. In our society it is illegal but in the countries it is traditionally performed in they consider it normal - just like routine infant male circumcision is here.

Granted, there are forms of female circumcision that are absolutely horrendous but there are also forms that are not as extensive as male circumcision. Yet all forms of female circumcision are illegal in our society.

And yes it is a personal decision - EXACTLY - the personal decision of the owner of the penis.

Stop minding other people's business. Circumcision has been going on for centuries and nobody is complaining aside from a few closed minded assholes, bent on imposing their philosophy on others. Lighten up Francis.

Circumcision has been going on for more than a few centuries, try thousands of years. That does not make it right.

"No one is complaining except for a few closed minded assholes...."

Sorry to disappoint you but there are more than a few of us. There is a whole cottage industry that is supported by circumcised men worldwide that are trying to restore their foreskins. Manufacturers of these device are located various locations in the world. These men are restoring because they are not happy with their circumcision status and disagree with the decision that was made for them.

I just Googled "Foreskin Restoration: 58,100 links
I just Googled "Foreskin Devices: 9, 070 links

Do you want to know who is restoring?

White Collar: Doctors, Lawyers, Medical Students, Engineers, Professors, Teachers, etc
Blue Collar: painters, general labourers, office workers
Age: high school students, college students, young adults, middle aged, retired, old age (know someone in their 80's that is restoring).
Religion: Christians, Jews, Muslims, LDS, agnostic, atheist++++
Race: predominantly Caucasian but virtually most nationalities & ethnic groups are represented.

So you see, this is not a small issue.

Take a look in the mirror and tell me who is close minded. Those that fight not for themselves but for the rights of future generations or those that content with the status quo and choose to bury their heads in the sand ignoring the medical data that proves that this is a human rights issue.

 

[JacobFox]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

Technically the best post on the subject. And give me all the flack anyone from either side wants to. Doesnt bothe me and I agree with this post.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

And the unmitigated hypocrisy of the anti-circs continues...

 

[JTalbain]

And the unmitigated hypocrisy of the anti-circs continues...

How exactly are people who oppose infant circumcision being hypocritical?

 

[technopeasant]

I am against infant circumcision. But, government needs to butt (pun intended) out of peoples lives. All we need is another stupid law telling people how to live their lives. This is not only a stupid idea it opens ever so much more the ways that government can barge into peoples lives. It bothers me that government has not enforced quarantine of people with aids. It is still done with people who have TB, why not? You rarely hear of a person dying of TB. If it had been done the AIDS epidemic would have been over in industrialized countries. But, who wants to give government another right to take ours? How uninformed can you get? Every right we give up is another the government has in it's fist. This is a really bad idea and I seriously doubt it will stand up in court. Since it comes from San Francisco I really wonder if this isn't a gay issue. How is it that every nutty idea seems to come from California the nutty state.

 

[JacobFox]

I am against infant circumcision. But, government needs to butt (pun intended) out of peoples lives. All we need is another stupid law telling people how to live their lives. This is not only a stupid idea it opens ever so much more the ways that government can barge into peoples lives. It bothers me that government has not had enforced quarantine of people with aids. It is still done with people who have TB, why not? You rarely hear of a person dying of TB. If it had been done the AIDS epidemic would have been over in industrialized countries. But, who wants to give government another right to take ours? How uninformed can you get? Every right we give up is another the government has in it's fist. This is a really bad idea and I seriously doubt it will stand up in court. Since it comes from San Francisco I really wonder if this isn't a gay issue. How is it that every nutty idea seems to come from California the nutty state.

You answered your own question about how uninformed we can get with this sick, dehumanizing post against AIDS victims.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

How exactly are people who oppose infant circumcision being hypocritical?

I'm only going to say it once because I don't even want to get wrapped up in another fruitless argument that goes nowhere.

Any person on this board who is uncut are that way because their parents told their doctors to leave you that way. They had a choice, whether it be an informed one or not, to circumcise you or leave your foreskin intact. Any person on this board who are against circumcision currently has that very same choice, and you have every right to tell your doctor to not put your infant boy under the knife if that's against your wishes. Putting a ban on circumcision revokes that same choice for any other parent from here on. Regardless of the reasons why (which are plentiful), it is hypocritical to deny ANYONE the same choices you, your parents and everyone else who had children to someone else.

So by all means, put out as much information you can to persuade expecting parents to not circumcise their infant boys. That's your right and it doesn't impede on the rights every other expecting parent exercises. But promoting legislation to make that decision for me is wrong. Because who are you to tell me how I am supposed to raise my family? Who are you to dictate to me, behind the walls of government, that the plans I have for my child are inferior and therefore needs an inquisition by you? What I decide to do with any babies I bring into this world, under the legal law, is between my doctor and my spouse. I don't need anyone else determining that for me, and if by chance you think your decisions for my child are better then my own then put your money where your mouth is. I'll calculate the money necessary to raise a male child until he is of legal age and you can pay it up front. Any takers? Or just like pro-lifers, are you just "concerned" about the baby until a finite point and then you don't really care either way?

I'm sick of the hypocrisy on this subject matter. Let parents do their job... the same way your parents did theirs.

 

[JTalbain]

Let me actually clarify on my previous post:

Some people say they want their children circumcised because of the preventative medical properties inherent in circumcision, yet they defend the procedure in the face of evidence that such claims are unfounded and overstated. They even defend it in the face of medical organizations advising against RIC, saying that the potential medical benefits do not outweigh the risks. Hypocrisy.

Some people say they want their children to be circumcised because intact penises are dirty and smelly, and yet continue to do so in the face of evidence proving intact penises are not difficult to clean. Hypocrisy.

Some people say they want their children to be circumcised because they want their son to be happy with his penis, and yet they continue to defend this decision despite the fact that circumcising them before they can choose for themselves is the only way that their son can have his preference denied to him. Hypocrisy.

Some people defend circumcision of their infant by saying circumcision is merely a matter of taste and/or preference for what is desirable, and yet they deny the decision to the individual who is most affected by it. Hypocrisy.

Some people say that circumcision doesn't change the mechanics of sex and/or masturbation, despite evidence that the foreskin does actually possess a large role in facilitating both. Hypocrisy.

Some people dismiss the notion that circumcision causes any potential damage to the male's reproductive tract, choosing to deny studies which note a marked decrease in fine-touch sensitivity, saying this is not equivalent to sexual sensitivity. Then they turn around and support less thorough studies which use the same technique, testing less and thus coming to different conclusions, hailing it as proof that their side is correct. Hypocrisy.

How exactly are those against circumcising children being hypocrites?

 

[JacobFox]

I'm only going to say it once because I don't even want to get wrapped up in another fruitless argument that goes nowhere.

Any person on this board who is uncut are that way because their parents told their doctors to leave you that way. They had a choice, whether it be an informed one or not, to circumcise you or leave your foreskin intact. Any person on this board who are against circumcision currently has that very same choice, and you have every right to tell your doctor to not put your infant boy under the knife if that's against your wishes. Putting a ban on circumcision revokes that same choice for any other parent from here on. Regardless of the reasons why (which are plentiful), it is hypocritical to deny ANYONE the same choices you, your parents and everyone else who had children to someone else.

So by all means, put out as much information you can to persuade expecting parents to not circumcise their infant boys. That's your right and it doesn't impede on the rights every other expecting parent exercises. But promoting legislation to make that decision for me is wrong. Because who are you to tell me how I am supposed to raise my family? Who are you to dictate to me, behind the walls of government, that the plans I have for my child are inferior and therefore needs an inquisition by you? What I decide to do with any babies I bring into this world, under the legal law, is between my doctor and my spouse. I don't need anyone else determining that for me, and if by chance you think your decisions for my child are better then my own then put your money where your mouth is. I'll calculate the money necessary to raise a male child until he is of legal age and you can pay it up front. Any takers? Or just like pro-lifers, are you just "concerned" about the baby until a finite point and then you don't really care either way?

I'm sick of the hypocrisy on this subject matter. Let parents do their job... the same way your parents did theirs.

Ok, the blah blah post is now second best.

 

[JTalbain]

Any person on this board who is uncut are that way because their parents told their doctors to leave you that way. They had a choice, whether it be an informed one or not, to circumcise you or leave your foreskin intact. Any person on this board who are against circumcision currently has that very same choice, and you have every right to tell your doctor to not put your infant boy under the knife if that's against your wishes. Putting a ban on circumcision revokes that same choice for any other parent from here on. Regardless of the reasons why (which are plentiful), it is hypocritical to deny ANYONE the same choices you, your parents and everyone else who had children to someone else.

It used to be the same choice for parents of baby girls. Until a certain point, it was the parent's choice to decide whether or not to cut off pieces of her genitalia. Since then we have deemed this illegal because of evidence which emerged which showed both a decrease in sexual sensitivity and an overstatement of medical benefits. We now find ourselves staring down circumcision with the exact same evidence in place, overstatement of medical value and decrease of sexual function. Is it not hypocritical to extend this protection to baby girls and not baby boys?

So by all means, put out as much information you can to persuade expecting parents to not circumcise their infant boys. That's your right and it doesn't impede on the rights every other expecting parent exercises. But promoting legislation to make that decision for me is wrong. Because who are you to tell me how I am supposed to raise my family? Who are you to dictate to me, behind the walls of government, that the plans I have for my child are inferior and therefore needs an inquisition by you? What I decide to do with any babies I bring into this world, under the legal law, is between my doctor and my spouse. I don't need anyone else determining that for me, and if by chance you think your decisions for my child are better then my own then put your money where your mouth is. I'll calculate the money necessary to raise a male child until he is of legal age and you can pay it up front. Any takers? Or just like pro-lifers, are you just "concerned" about the baby until a finite point and then you don't really care either way?

That thing you just did, where you say the law has no business deciding what you do to raise your children, but then you use the law in order to justify your decisions in childrearing? That would be known as hypocrisy.

What is not hypocrisy is to want medical ethics to apply equally across the board. Equal protection for the genitals of infants of both sexes. Enforced informed consent for medical procedures. Medical recommendations based on medicine and science as opposed to culture and tradition. These are all areas where exceptions are made for circumcision, and all are areas that the "anti-circs" want fixed.

I'm sick of the hypocrisy on this subject matter. Let parents do their job... the same way your parents did theirs.

My parents had me circumcised when I was an infant. I do not approve of this decision, and I am currently restoring. So because of my parents decision, I now am looking at years and years of stretching the skin on my dick to make a lesser version of something that I was born with and should have had in the first place. Why would I want everyone else to run the risk of putting their sons through the same thing?

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Forgive me for saying this, but you do not know the definition of the word "hypocrisy".
Here it is - the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

Some people say they want their children circumcised because of the preventative medical properties inherent in circumcision, yet they defend the procedure in the face of evidence that such claims are unfounded and overstated. They even defend it in the face of medical organizations advising against RIC, saying that the potential medical benefits do not outweigh the risks. Hypocrisy.

Some people say they want their children to be circumcised because intact penises are dirty and smelly, and yet continue to do so in the face of evidence proving intact penises are not difficult to clean. Hypocrisy.

Nope. These are not examples of a hypocrisy.
There's medical information available to support both arguments and neither side has been thoroughly debunked from a medical & scientific standpoint. Until medical experts and scientists can overwhelmingly come to a conclusion on this subject matter, you're just taking a side and hoping people adhere to your will.

Some people say they want their children to be circumcised because they want their son to be happy with his penis, and yet they continue to defend this decision despite the fact that circumcising them before they can choose for themselves is the only way that their son can have his preference denied to him. Hypocrisy

Some people defend circumcision of their infant by saying circumcision is merely a matter of taste and/or preference for what is desirable, and yet they deny the decision to the individual who is most affected by it. Hypocrisy.

Like I stated before, there are plenty of reasons why people may or may not go forth with such a procedure. Ultimately, that's not the point I'm addressing. Parents are 100% responsible for the caring of their children until they become of legal age. If a medical procedure is legal, they have a right to do it regardless of the reasoning and whether you feel it's morally right or not. it is hypocritical to deny ANYONE the same choices you, your parents and everyone else who had children to someone else.

Some people say that circumcision doesn't change the mechanics of sex and/or masturbation, despite evidence that the foreskin does actually possess a large role in facilitating both. Hypocrisy.

Again, not a hypocrisy. This is a difference in opinion based on medical research and personal preference.

Some people dismiss the notion that circumcision causes any potential damage to the male's reproductive tract, choosing to deny studies which note a marked decrease in fine-touch sensitivity, saying this is not equivalent to sexual sensitivity. Then they turn around and support less thorough studies which use the same technique, testing less and thus coming to different conclusions, hailing it as proof that their side is correct. Hypocrisy.

Nope. People are given two sets of information on a procedure and they make a choice. You think the procedure is wrong, so it's very easy for you to assume that those who don't agree are going "against the experts" and are being hypocritical.

How exactly are those against circumcising children being hypocrites?

Well, the obvious is that people who are for circumcision are not trying to pass legislation to make it mandatory. At least I haven't heard of any pieces of legislation proposed in our country to do such a thing. But by all means, if there's any legislation out there which is pushing for mandatory circumcision then please let me know so I can go on record and say how stupid that is as well.

That thing you just did, where you say the law has no business deciding what you do to raise your children, but then you use the law in order to justify your decisions in childrearing? That would be known as hypocrisy.

No it's not. The law as it currently stands doesn't determine whether I can circumcise my baby boy or not. It allows me to have a choice, the same way you have it if you bear a infant child into this world. While I apologize if you feel your parents did the wrong thing in your case, it still doesn't change my reasoning.