Circumcision - Extreme body modification

strutter2

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It's really weird how different countries have different policies. I didn't know America circumcised all baby boys. In the UK it only ever happens for religious reasons - i.e. if the parents are Jewish or Muslim, or if the baby has a very tight foreskin that prevents him from passin urine. Otherwise boys are left as nature intended. I know Australia had a policy of circumcising all boys in the 60s and 70s, but I think that's changed, But it means that a certain generation are all circumcised.
I haven't a problem with either, although a man with foreskin should be clean and make sure it's all washed under there daily (you'd be surprised the number who don't), just as a woman should ensure the clitoral hood is cleaned with water daily to prevent a build up of cheesy nastiness!
I know there are ritual circumcisions done and as an escort I had an Aboriginal client who had had this done - basically not just the foreskin taken off but a triangular section sliced out from underneath - from part way down the shaft to the head. So his pee and come came out half way down the shaft. It was really weird for me to see and I can't imagine the agony he would have gone through, but he explained that it was very important to their culture to have it done. Pacific cultures also do extreme tattooing whereby a young man has his arse, balls and penis tatooed using flint and bamboo or something. Also not nice. God knows why we started cutting outselves up.
 

gymfresh

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It's really weird how different countries have different policies. I didn't know America circumcised all baby boys. In the UK it only ever happens for religious reasons - i.e. if the parents are Jewish or Muslim, or if the baby has a very tight foreskin that prevents him from passin urine. Otherwise boys are left as nature intended. I know Australia had a policy of circumcising all boys in the 60s and 70s, but I think that's changed, But it means that a certain generation are all circumcised.


Well, no nation actually had a circumcision "policy", though it's true that the US, Australia, NZ and Canada went through periods where most boys' foreskins were pretty much automatically removed at birth. As they used to say, the biggest threat to a newborn's foreskin is the English language. All these countries took their cues from the early experiments with medical circumcision by the UK and US in the late 1800's. Whereas in England the fad was largely confined to the upper and upper-middle classes (and oddly didn't cross borders much into Scotland and Wales), in the colonies and former colonies the fad took solid hold in the early 1900s. Without Britain's rigid class distinctions, circumcision was equally and enthusiastically endorsed and applied by the medical profession across most socioeconomic lines -- at least those that could pay and those that didn't outright object.

In England, the rate never got much above about 35%, limited to the elite. A friend who attended Oxford University in the early 1960s said he never saw a foreskin in his college or from other colleges the whole time he was a student. It was practically unthinkable in the Oxbridge crowd before the end of WWII to not have your son circumcised. All this changed with the advent of the NHS in July 1948. Physicians' attitudes toward circumcision soured quickly and even the wealthiest Britons eventually took part in the scheme, so by the early 1950's England's circumcision rate was down near the traditional continental rate of 1% or so. The real nail in the coffin was an article in the British Medical Journal (Christmas 1949) by a highly respected paediatrician, Douglas Gairdner, DM.

Australia and NZ had probably the highest nonreligious circ rates during the 20th century, around 95-98%. This actually began around World War I and didn't start to come down until around 1970, so it is rare to find an intact Aussie or Kiwi guy over 40. New Zealand actually led Australia in this change by about 10 or 15 years, possibly owing to its closer ties with Britain. NZ didn't have its own medical society until the early 1960s; prior to that, it was the NZ chapter of the British Medical Association. As such, NZ docs were well aware of the British abandonment of infant circumcision, and this likely influenced attitudes, but it wasn't really until single-payer health came to NZ around in the late 1960s that the rate there began to plunge.

Canada, as a Commonwealth country, embraced infant circumcision, though not as aggressively as Oz and NZ. While Australia was busy snipping nearly every boy, Canadians never got much above about 80%, owing in part to the greater rural and farming population. This started to change in the late 60's and early 1970's as numerous British-trained doctors questioned the need for circumcision, just like in Australia. But the real drop came with the start of single-payer health systems province-by-province. The ones that dropped circumcision from coverage early, like Alberta, BC, and the Maritimes, saw rapid declines in the early 1980s. Ontario dropped coverage much later, but has also seen steep declines in infant circumcision.

The story in the US is, predictably, more driven by private enterprise than by social trends or commonwealth practices. The infant circumcision rate started to rise in the early 20th century, but didn't really take off until the big push for standardized hospital maternity wards after WWI. Between the world wars the US rate rose from about 25% to about 60%. After WWII there was an economic boomlet and companies were fiercely competitive for workers. However, the US maintained strict wage controls, so private industry turned to offering generous insurance benefits as lures -- fueled by an important IRS ruling that health insurance benefits were not taxable income to employees. These big private insurance schemes and later HMOs, today largely unsupportable, are still the cornerstone of the ailing US healthcare system. Male infant circumcision was added to virtually every insurance program by the early 1950s and doctors liberally took advantage of the guaranteed reimbursement.

Circumcision got one of its biggest pushes the year after WWII with the publication of Baby and Child Care by paediatrician Benjamin McLane Spock. His book became the bible of child-rearing in the 1950s and in it, he offered a circular-logic endorsement of infant circumcision: he suggested that circumcision was a good idea, particularly if most of the boys in the neighborhood were also circumcised, so a boy grows up feeling "regular". Of course, the opposite could have been argued if most of the boys in the neighborhood were not circumcised, but the end result was that just about every parent went along with circumcision. No one wanted their son to dwell on being "different" or, heaven forbid, to become a "homo". Plus, circumcision was rapidly becoming "free" with insurance.

Spock also revealed his general ignorance of intact anatomy by telling parents that if they did not opt for circumcision, they must systematically pull back their son's foreskin every day from birth for careful cleaning of the glans. He noted this may be difficult, and painful, at first, but must be done. In this way, many intact boys suffered painful adhesions and infections and ultimately needed to be circumcised, scaring many more parents into having their newborn sons circumcised. No matter that this wasn't happening in Europe, South America or Asia, where parents left their sons alone.

Significantly, Dr Spock later regretted his advice. He wrote in 1989 that he eventually came to believe there were no medical or hygienic benefits to infant circumcision, and his view was that routine circumcision of males is traumatic, painful, and of questionable value. He said he would not have any son of his circumcised, a sentiment shared by a high percentage of US doctors.

US circumcision reached its peak around the time of Kennedy's election, at probably around 90%. In more than a few communities it was 100%; in some rural areas, less. Blacks initially lagged behind, but eventually caught up and today have slightly higher overall circumcision rates than whites.

Meanwhile there were a few dissenters in print. One was a writer named Joseph Lewis, who wrote a 1949 book called "In the Name of Humanity". It was a solid treatise against what he saw (correctly) as the coming huge run-up in the infant circumcision rate. Another was a landmark article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) by Air Force Captain Noel Preston in September 1970. Its 3-sentence conclusion stated that routine infant circumcision was unnecessary and contraindicated. Shortly thereafter, in 1971, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) issued its first statement on circumcision, stating "There are no valid medical indications for circumcision in the neonatal period."

This was the start of American doctors and parents reëvaluating the need for automatic circumcision of boys at birth. The US medical community remained unpersuaded by worldwide medical opinion & practices regarding infant circumcision, but still has never officially endorsed the practice. With easier access to information showing the US has obtained no health advantages at all from mass circumcision, more and more parents and doctors are not bothering with the procedure. The US rate is now estimated to be somewhat under 60%, similar to at the end of WWII, down from about 80% when Reagan took office. But there will be no plunge similar to in Britain or the Commonwealth countries until US health insurance drops automatic coverage. Non-religious circumcision has always clearly been more an economic issue than a health or cultural issue.

By the way, strutter2, you're not alone in not knowing that probably every American guy you've met is circumcised. Most Britons and other Europeans are quite surprised when they learn this, since it seems at odds with prevailing views of the USA.
 
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deleted15807

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Ohh GAWD a novelette on circumcision. Gawd. Get a life.
 

B_dxjnorto

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God knows why we started cutting outselves up.
No aspect of human life seethes with so many unexorcised demons as does sex. No human activity is so hexed by superstition, so haunted by residual tribal lore, and so harassed by socially induced fear. ~ Harvey Cox, Harvard Divinity Professor, "Sex and Secularization", 1965.

“One of the commonest forms of human stupidity is mutilation.” ~ Charles Ricket. Idiot Man, or the Follies of Mankind. 1925: T. Werner Laurie, LTD. Chapter IV (Mutilations), pp. 25-33.
 

ruggero

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thanks gymfresh for all your effort and research.
but now it seems that circumcision is useful as the removal of the foreskin offers some protection from HIV!
How convoluted it's history is.
Evidentally rates of HIV infection in Africa are lower in areas where religion (Islam) demands foreskin removal.
 

gymfresh

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Hey ruggero!

Well, keep in mind that Islam has strict sexual and hygiene laws laws which should help its members remain healthy. Even so, looking at data over the past 20 years, areas in Africa where circumcision has traditionally been practiced have no lower rates of HIV transmission than where it's not practiced (particularly non-Islamic tribe-to-tribe), which isn't surprising. That's in keeping with just about all studies conducted in other parts of the world. What you may be referring to are the recent trials conducted in Uganda and South Africa that were halted short on ethical grounds. Those are the only studies to date showing a difference (even though the sample size of guys getting HIV was too small to really draw a meaningful conclusion). However, they conflict with earlier research and no one can adequately explain the mechanism by which it might work; both theories put forth fail to jibe with the published data to date. On balance, circumcised men have slightly higher rates of all principal STI categories, including HIV, though again it's not statistically significant. Bottom line is that circumcision can't be considered an effective public health measure anywhere in the world, and no matter how it's looked at, it is never cost effective compared to other preventions. Looks like Europe has this one right and Canada, Australia and New Zealand have all moved in the correct direction for better health.
 
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scottredleter

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This argument is so lame and tired. I get that most of you don't agree with it. That's fine. Don't circumcise YOUR children. It is not your job to make that decision for other parents, other people, etc. Just like it is not your decision whether or not those same children should receive certain injections/vaccines that can have potentially "harmful" results for them. It is the parents decision. And don't say it's not the same. There are people in society who are just as dead set against that as you are against circumcision. Stop with the "GOD or CREATOR knew what he was doing because he wouldn't give us a body part we didn't need" argument because there are plenty of body parts that get removed because they aren't NECESSARY......the appendix for one. If the Appendix gets infected it is usually removed. I'm sure there are also other medical options for that but in the end the removal decision belongs to the parents.

Good luck suing medical professionals and insurance companies to get this practice stopped. For many people it is a religious matter and for many people it isn't. Saying that the procedure can't be performed is bordering on if not fully a matter of discrimination.

As a woman I can honestly say it is of no sexual consequence if a man is circumcised or not. I have had both and I have enjoyed each equally.

With that logic, if my religion says that I should have sex with my 3 year old children then it should be all right. using religion as some excuse doesn't get very far with me... Religiion is just the made up fables of an ancient population of not very bright people who decided that God wanted people killed, so they picked up an ax and went to town. Soon after that, they started cutting pieces of their children off because God wanted it to be so.
 

D_Randy_Cox

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Just amazing. No other surgical procedure is done to a child just because it is a parents choice but this is okay. In some foreign countries the parents have even more "choices" and we call that barbaric. It really is simple economics. As soon as most of Europe did their own studies and PROVED there no legitimate reason for it to be done routinely, they quit covering the cost. Shockingly everyones previously strong feelings passed very quickly when asked to pay for it. Now a whole generation of Europeans is growing up intact. There's the answer.
 

B_dxjnorto

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In this month's issue of Reader's Digest on page 163 there is an article titled "You be the Judge." It is about James Boldt and Lia Boldt in a custody battle over their son and the father wanting to get him circumcised.

In the end the courts finally asked the young man at age 14 of his wishes, and guess what, he wanted to be left intact. And the courts in Oregon granted HIS decision. Doctors Opposing Circumcision was involved, but this goes to show that given a choice, young men really can decide what they want based on their own feelings and not the courts, parents and doctors.

This should give the circumcision debate a lot of exposure.
 

aaad

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I hear a lot of people who talk about piercings, tattoos, etc... with disgust, and i wonder why... the first thing we do to new born baby boys is put them through one of the most strange and unneeded body modification procedures in the world... the circumcision. I've heard all the reasons... "it may get infected." Yes, so might his ears, why don't you have them removed? "I want him to look like his Daddy." Why, are you going to be fucking him?" "He may get laughed at in school gym class." Not if everybody stops lopping off plieces of their children he wont. And, not when women discover how much better sex with an uncut penis can be. Once while talking to a female pediatrician and shooting down one argument she had after another, she finally got to the heart of the matter... "Well, it just looks prettier to me." Ah yes... it has finally come to this we've performed this barbaric ritual for so long, it's just a cultural norm. So much so, that you can hardly get out of a hospital without them chasing you down with a pair of forceps and a scalpel. Just try this... inquire into having your baby girl circumcised.... you wont get out of the hospital because the police will be waiting at the door to take you away. I'm in no way comparing the brutal ritual of female circumcision to that of males, but the reasons for them are all very similar and the law about them should be too. No matter what your view of when life starts is, it certainly has started at the very latest, at birth. One of those rights should certainly be to not have parts of their body lopped off due to cultural whim. If after becoming an adult you wish to have it removed, go for it. But no body else should be able to make that choice for you.
Garg MAn

Hmmm...interesting point of view. I'll give the alternative. I am extremely happy being circumcised. I find foreskins incredibly ugly - no offense. I'm glad my circumcision was performed at an age when I didn't have to worry about it and when I wouldn't remember the pain.
 
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deleted783291

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This thread is dusty, and this may have been posted earlier, but here's something:

From the conclusions of a study objectively and quantifiably measuring the penile sensitivity thresholds of penises using finely calibrated monofilaments:

RESULTS:

The glans of the uncircumcised men had significantly lower mean (sem) pressure thresholds than that of the circumcised men, at 0.161 (0.078) g (P = 0.040) when controlled for age, location of measurement, type of underwear worn, and ethnicity. There were significant differences in pressure thresholds by location on the penis (P < 0.001). The most sensitive location on the circumcised penis was the circumcision scar on the ventral surface. Five locations on the uncircumcised penis that are routinely removed at circumcision had lower pressure thresholds than the ventral scar of the circumcised penis.
CONCLUSIONS:

The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.
 

descartes

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Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.

That very broad all encompassing statement can be true or completely untrue depending on the surgeon. Of course if you have the need to beat the anti circ drum you will conveniently ignore the fact that a circ can be achieved without ablating the most sensitive parts of the penis.

In other words it's a generalisation and generalisations are generally untrue...:smile:
 

henryontims

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It is important to understand how circumcision eveloved for those nonreligious people on this site who are condemning the "unnecessary" act of circumcision. For Jews and Muslims who initiated the practice at a time when thorough bathing was not part of a regular routine (not to mention daily routine), circumcision was a huge step forward in hygiene and made it much easier for men to stay clean and keep women clean. It was part of the relilgious process of achieving earthly purity like the God they worshipped. In the predestant-dominated Victorian world, christians adopted the practice for similar arguments linking Godliness and cleanliness, and the need for cleanliness was still a real consideration.

Our modern world with access to daily showers and understandings of cleanliness make the need for circumcision obsolete, but traditions die hard, and I for one find no reason to bash anyone or any parent for the decision he/she/they make(s) either way.

If you want to change behaviour, you need to understand the behaviour's origin.
 

descartes

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why would you subject a baby to the procedure
I wouldn't .

I am completely against RIC but that is a different argument completely. A good adult circ is better than uncut imo. I'm not recommending it. I'm not criticising those who don't want it but I am against the generalised guesses that some antis come out with as if they need some sort of justification to stay whole. To then use RIC as a further reason to hate the general concept of circumcision is unreasonable and unconnected to the principle of elective adult circumcision.
 

Snozzle

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...a circ can be achieved without ablating the most sensitive parts of the penis.

No. The study showed that the FORESKIN is the most sensitive part of the penis. If you're referring to those lower-shaft resections that pull the foreskin down over the shaft, they are significantly different and can do serious nerve damage. They're also pretty rare, and never done to babies.
 

Snozzle

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It is important to understand how circumcision eveloved for those nonreligious people on this site who are condemning the "unnecessary" act of circumcision. For Jews and Muslims who initiated the practice at a time when thorough bathing was not part of a regular routine (not to mention daily routine), circumcision was a huge step forward in hygiene and made it much easier for men to stay clean and keep women clean.
There is no evidence for that claim. Where there is substandard hygiene, circumcision would kill far more boys than it ever protected from anything.


It was part of the relilgious process of achieving earthly purity like the God they worshipped. In the predestant-dominated Victorian world, christians adopted the practice for similar arguments linking Godliness and cleanliness, and the need for cleanliness was still a real consideration.

Our modern world with access to daily showers and understandings of cleanliness make the need for circumcision obsolete, but traditions die hard, and I for one find no reason to bash anyone or any parent for the decision he/she/they make(s) either way.

If you want to change behaviour, you need to understand the behaviour's origin.
The more I see of the steely determination of some parents to circumcise come hell or high water (like the guy in Canada who cut his own son on the kitchen floor with a carpet knife - after having botched his own), the more it becomes clear to me that infant circumcision is about POWER and CONTROL.