Circumcision - Extreme body modification

mandoman

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VinylBoy: "Find anywhere on this or any other anti-Circ thread where I have called uncut people disgusting, ugly, gross or any other degrading words that you or anyone else that shares your beliefs call me?"
Me: "It's all in your imagination. Never have I called anyone's penis disgusting, ugly, gross, or anything of the kind. You mock me when I say that I say that to me, circumcision status has no bearing, and then accuse me of using the most horrendous words to describe a circumcised cock. So, which is it? Please show me the quotes where I have called anyone's penis disgusting, ugly, or gross. Otherwise, feel free to apologize for attributing something awful to me, and hurtful to others, that I did not do."
 

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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Extreme body modification?

First it was "mutilation", then "criminal mutilation", then "parental perversion" and now this?

Can't the Anti-Circ Brigade decide on a slogan, or at least an adjective?

Once again, these people are letting their sexual fetish cloud their good reasoning... and good science.
 

B_VinylBoy

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VinylBoy: "Find anywhere on this or any other anti-Circ thread where I have called uncut people disgusting, ugly, gross or any other degrading words that you or anyone else that shares your beliefs call me?"
Me: "It's all in your imagination. Never have I called anyone's penis disgusting, ugly, gross, or anything of the kind. You mock me when I say that I say that to me, circumcision status has no bearing, and then accuse me of using the most horrendous words to describe a circumcised cock. So, which is it? Please show me the quotes where I have called anyone's penis disgusting, ugly, or gross. Otherwise, feel free to apologize for attributing something awful to me, and hurtful to others, that I did not do."

That last comment I made to you was in response to the following statement that you made to me:

I see you doing a lot more demonizing, than anyone else in this thread, with the exception of Seven721. Yours is slightly more articulate.

I didn't say that it was you or any one person in particular.
Since I've been on this thread, I've had you and about seven others throw everything but the kitchen sink against those who respect a parent's right to choose in the form of moral rhetoric. You've all either tried to suggest that a circumcised dick was either inferior or somehow flawed in appearance, and disabled a baby's ability to have better sex in the future. I've NEVER done that. In fact, I've said time and time again that I don't care if a baby boy is circumcised or not. As much as you want to eliminate that choice because someone can disagree with your reasoning, you are also exercising your right to make that decision either way. Again, why is it OK for you to exercise a decision in this manner, but those who won't see eye to eye with you aren't?

So my argument stands. However, if you want me to get specific I'll go through the thread and give you a nice list of quotes. It's all here for everyone to see, so let's not ignore the fact that you're guilty of putting some of this nonsense out there.
 

bigmanstl

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As usual, I have to set you guys straight. Yes, it might very well be a cultural/religious/image thing for some couples. But there are medicinal reasons to have a little guy's foreskin snipped. First, the penis is much easier to keep clean. It's been medically proven that dudes with foreskin who don't properly clean the penis have a higher rate of bacteria or disease issues. I know it's not a big issue. Trust me though I hooked up with more than a few guys and let me tell you, the hygiene for some has been suspect at best. Give me snipped! Second, there have been scientific studies that circumcised penises attract less diseases than uncut men. We're talking reducing rates of contracting STDs, including HIV. So maybe, if more men in the world were cut, we wouldn't have so many AIDS-ridden people in the world. On a personal note, I am cut and i have no problem with it. Do I miss out on the best sex ever? Who knows and I don't care! I don't have sensitivity issues ( or lack thereof) down below so I'm happy and that's that.
 

B_dxjnorto

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bigmanstl, all you're doing is parroting. Unless their mothers are infected, babies STD risk is a big fat zero.

There is no such thing as a surgical procedure with no risk and no consequences. That you were cut at an age where you don't know the consequences does not mean there are none.

Here's an extreme body modification--and I thought our witch doctors were bad. Like all of us, the kid has to live with this for the rest of his life:

News - Health: Boy in hospital with rotting penis

A 14-year-old boy was taken to a hospital with a rotting penis in the Transkei on Friday after a botched circumcision at an illegal initiation school, the provincial health department said.

Spokesperson Sizwe Kupelo said the youth was one of 48 who had been attending a school at Zele near Libode.

The man running the school, who has had previous brushes with the law over illegal circumcisions, was arrested on Thursday.

Kupelo said the youth was one of four taken to St Barnabas Hospital in Libode on Friday morning.

By the time he was admitted, the glans or head of his penis had fallen off.

Another of the four also had a gangrenous penis, to which doctors were desperately trying to restore a blood supply, while the remaining two had wounds that were merely septic.

None of their lives were at risk, Kupelo said.

The four were all either 13 or 14 years old, far below the minimum of 18 laid down by the province's circumcision legislation.

He urged parents to come forward and fetch their children from the school.

Kupelo also said a 20-year-old man was arrested in East London on Thursday for performing circumcision on a nine-year-old child.

Three youths have died so far this winter circumcision season in the province, despite the efforts of health authorities to eradicate illegal schools.

Their efforts are hampered by the fact that the schools are often located in remote areas.

The circumcision ritual is seen by the Xhosa as a passage from being a boy, to manhood. - Sapa
 

B_VinylBoy

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And, of course, what dxjnorto is ignoring is that what these people in this story undergone is a very rare case. Medical procedures with very high rates of success, including male circumcision, tend not to be reversed or deemed illegal just because of a small number of cases where there's complications. Because he already stated the very line that discredits his argument:

There is no such thing as a surgical procedure with no risk and no consequences.

Any responsible parent knows there's risk for any kind of surgery or medical procedure. That doesn't make them useless or not necessary. Case in point, if a baby had some kind of tumor in its body, one would consider a surgical procedure that has its own levels of risk & consequence to fix the problem. With that being said and using their argument of a baby's "rights", should the baby have a say in whether or not the tumor gets removed? Even if it's benign, it's what "nature intended" because it was born with it. Should a parent in this case be allowed to make a choice for the baby now? Or would we have to go through countless threads on a penis site full of anti-benign tumor rhetoric about how we're making decisions against the baby's will and that we're hurting, mutilating, amputating, or somehow damaging it? :rolleyes:

It's funny how the same arguments they use to create some kind of moral fear and outrage for their cause can be completely flipped against them when approached at scientifically.
 
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B_dxjnorto

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B_VinylBoy

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You've not kept up buddy. It happens in the dozens in Africa every year. Makes it into the medical journals here too

Child has an infected penis after neonatal circumcision; Fournier's gangrene

Because child circumcision is completely unnecessary, so are horrors like these.

According to the World Health Organization, there are currently 664,500,000 circumcised men in the world. Circumcision - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With your "dozens" reported every year, the failure or complication rate is less than 1%. And if we look at it from a scientific study, not some biased anti-Circ person on a penis site, you'll see that the average rate for complications is from 2-10%. Very few medical or scientific doctors would consider outlawing a surgical procedure that has such a low failure rate. If that was the case, since condoms only work about 98% of the time, we should also outlaw the use of those because of the small failure rate attached to these items as well in preventing sexual diseases.

But yeah, nice try injecting your twisted morals into a debate that should be decided on science and real medical research from various sources, not just the ones you favor because it already toots your rhetoric. One of these days you'll figure out that your personal beliefs do not play a factor when it comes to people you are not bringing into this world or taking care of. Anything else you'd like to pitch to me for discrediting? I can do this all day... :rolleyes:
 
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mandoman

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Let's talk about twisted morals.
Is it twisted morals to leave a kid alone, in the condition in which they are born?
Is it twisted morals to harbor the feeling that kids should not be put to surgery, unless there is a pressing medical need?
Or is it twisted morals to want to cut a kid, who doesn't require the surgery?
Oops. I'm letting my sexual fetish cloud my good reasoning... and good science.
Oops. Wait a minute. I am not. The American Medical Association:
AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, Chicago, Illinois,
Approved by the Council on Scientific Affairs, December 1999;
published on the web, July 6, 2000.



"Virtually all current policy statements from specialty societies and medical organizations do not recommend routine neonatal circumcision, and support the provision of accurate and unbiased information to parents to inform their choice."

"A majority of boys born in the United States still undergo nonritual circumcisions. This occurs in large measure because parental decision-making is based on social or cultural expectations, rather than medical concerns."

"Studies from the 1980s suggested that the presentation of medical information on the potential advantages and disadvantages of circumcision had little influence on parents' decisions."

"In another contemporary study, nearly half of those physicians performing circumcisions did not discuss the potential medical risks and benefits of elective circumcision prior to delivery of the infant son. Deferral of discussion until after birth, combined with the fact that many parents' decisions about circumcision are preconceived, contribute to the high rate of elective circumcision."

"Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision."

So, tell me. Do you think the doctors who came up with the policy went and jerked off over their sexual fetish, after writing these words? Or do you think it was because they had read countless studies, from multiple countries, before issuing their considered opinion?
 

mandoman

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Once again, VinylBoy.
"Please show me the quotes where I have called anyone's penis disgusting, ugly, or gross. Otherwise, feel free to apologize for attributing something awful to me, and hurtful to others, that I did not do."
Time to put up, or shut up.
 

mandoman

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Bigmanstl:
So, in essence, because you hit a few dirty ones, and didn't have the self-esteem to say, "go wash that, or I'm not putting it in my mouth", kids should be routinely cut, to satisfy your sexual needs? Ever find a circumcised guy who needs washing? I see all over the net, women saying, cleanliness is what counts, not a guy's circumcision status. I've had plenty of clean uncut men, and plenty of dirty circumcised men.
I don't think that your preference should have anything to do with surgery on a child.
Wait a minute, isn't that exactly what the anti-circ posters in here have been accused of, by the likes of Rex2000 on this page, for example?
How much protection do you think circumcision afforded the thousands of circumcised Americans who have died of AIDS? In the same vein, why is HIV not rampant in Europe, if they don't routinely circumcise?
 

D_Jerry_Atric

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As usual, I have to set you guys straight. Yes, it might very well be a cultural/religious/image thing for some couples. But there are medicinal reasons to have a little guy's foreskin snipped. First, the penis is much easier to keep clean. It's been medically proven that dudes with foreskin who don't properly clean the penis have a higher rate of bacteria or disease issues. I know it's not a big issue. Trust me though I hooked up with more than a few guys and let me tell you, the hygiene for some has been suspect at best. Give me snipped! Second, there have been scientific studies that circumcised penises attract less diseases than uncut men. We're talking reducing rates of contracting STDs, including HIV. So maybe, if more men in the world were cut, we wouldn't have so many AIDS-ridden people in the world. On a personal note, I am cut and i have no problem with it. Do I miss out on the best sex ever? Who knows and I don't care! I don't have sensitivity issues ( or lack thereof) down below so I'm happy and that's that.

Condoms and safer sex work a lot better than cutting off major parts of people's genitals for preventing the transmission of STD's and the transmission/seroconversion of HIV.

If in your mind being cut prevents people from getting HIV, how come in America when most men were cut during the start of the HIV/AIDS pandemic in the 70s and the discovery of HIV in the early 80s, being cut did nothing at all to prevent men from getting HIV?
 

Stephenmass

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In the short time that I have been out here I'm already sick and tired of reading the "circumcision discussion". Some of us are, some of us aren't. Some of us maybe wish we were, some of us wish we were not, etc. Anybody here is entitled to their own opinions about their own equipment, but please, don't make decisions on what other people have decided to do or not do. If you wish you were not, or you wish you were, hell you are entitled to that opinion. I'm just tired of these same people projecting what they think is right for everyone.

To each their own and to each that has their own, if you are cut or uncut, it's your penis!
 
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seriously its a personal preference for almost all of you. those that dont like cut dicks argue against it. those that do tend to not really care (as far as ive noticed). i think all of you should shut the fuck up about it. no one fucking cares what you think based on your biased opinions. and i know in like 5 fucking seconds someone is gonna post some bullshit article about a circumcision gone wrong. well guess what assholes!? there are alot of medical procedures that go wrong. far more than circumcisions. in addition most those articles are written by biased persons or publications. circumcision has been found to just make it easier to clean (and by that i mean less time.). thats all. someone with foreskin just has to wash a bit more. seriously shut the fuck up. all of you. damn.

(not written in hate but in frustration over the same goddamn argument for the last several hundred years)
 

darkbond007

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seriously its a personal preference for almost all of you. those that dont like cut dicks argue against it. those that do tend to not really care (as far as ive noticed). i think all of you should shut the fuck up about it. no one fucking cares what you think based on your biased opinions. and i know in like 5 fucking seconds someone is gonna post some bullshit article about a circumcision gone wrong. well guess what assholes!? there are alot of medical procedures that go wrong. far more than circumcisions. in addition most those articles are written by biased persons or publications. circumcision has been found to just make it easier to clean (and by that i mean less time.). thats all. someone with foreskin just has to wash a bit more. seriously shut the fuck up. all of you. damn.

(not written in hate but in frustration over the same goddamn argument for the last several hundred years)

What they like to do is use some rural, illegal instance where someone gets butchered by some bush medicine doctor and compare it to how the operation is really supposed to go.

You can pull up stories all over about how people are butchered replacing kidneys, giving childbirth, getting liposuction, breast augmentation, abortion etc etc. All of the above when performed in highly standardized medical facilities have a high success rate, whereas something that happens in a hut in the middle of an African forest with a camp fire and 3 pumice rocks as utensils will not.
 

Bull_13

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Well I Think that it is really unnecesary, I mean its something that the boys should at the least have a say on I dont think its fair anyother way parents could wait for their children to choose them selves. I my self am cut and I think that the way it should be
 

mandoman

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Exactly, Bull_13.
darkbond007, circumcision is dangerous when carried out in the bush. But, isn't that what the latest African studies, and Bill Gates' money, are pushing towards?
The AMA's point, and the AAP's point, is that even in clean American hospitals, circumcision is more dangerous than having a foreskin. There are staph, strep, and MRSA infections that happen all the time. I live in the medical capital of the US, Boston, where there are the best doctors and the latest technology. These hospitals are connected to Harvard, MIT, etc.
Yet...
Infection control problems cited at Beth Israel - The Boston Globe

It isn't always Africa, or the back woods, where problems with circumcision surface.
Death from Circumcision - Ryleigh McWillis
Deaths from Circumcision
Fulton County jury awards $2.3 million in case of botched circumcision
Boy Gets Botched Circumcision, Raised As A Girl, Commits Suicide - Xbox 360 & Xbox Forums
We don't like to think about it, it's true, but things go wrong. Men end up with skin bridges, meatal stenosis, hidden penis, painful erections because too much skin was removed, and a whole host of other problems. Are they rare? Meatal stenosis certainly is not. What man wants to tell his buddies or his girl that his circumcision caused him damage? Very few, I would wager. The doctors know of more problems, but again, they are not talking. They could get sued, or lose a lucrative business, estimated at $300 million a year.

Africans say that their studies show circumcision is raising the HIV rate, not lowering it.
Africa Science News Service | Reporting about African Science with an African eye - Adoption of male circumcision to fight HIV dangerous and unethical

These American babies in the best hospitals are exposed to potentially fatal infections.
What does a successful circumcision do, anyway?
It turns an internal part into an external one.
It turns a moist part into a dry one.
It takes a penis with a moving part, and makes it into one without moving parts.
It removes 20,000 nerves, all of them designed by natural selection, to send a shiver up and down your spine.
And for what gain?
To not have to use a washcloth?
A false promise of protection against disease?
Oh wait, cancer of the penis. No, that one is wrong, studies have shown that circumcised guys get cancer of the penis, too, in fact about 37% of men with penile cancer were circumcised at birth.

All the other people with beliefs like ours...the English, the Canadians, the Australians, New Zealanders, Californians, have all slowed circumcisions down to a trickle. They have done their research, and found that the money could be better spent elsewhere, actually fighting disease. If circumcision protects at all, it does not protect much. If you still have to use a condom to be safe, why get rid of any of your parts?

Again, to the people who are sick of reading about it...why are you hear reading about it?
You hate it, your minds are cast in concrete and are not going to change. Why bitch about it? Why not do something more constructive? If it bothers you, stop.
I am here, because I wish people would examine the evidence more closely, and not just circumcise because everybody is doing it. Does it really benefit anybody?
Though it is legal, does anyone really have the right to carve their opinion in somebody else's flesh, no matter how well meaning? I did it. I was told it needed to be done. I was wrong. I was given bad information. There is no shortage of bad information. If having a foreskin was unhealthy or disgusting, you would bet we would be hearing about it loudly and clearly, from all the women in Europe, South America, Asia, etc, and plenty of the men, too. What do we hear? You Americans have an obsession. And this, coming from respected European doctors, not from foreskin fetishists.
BBC NEWS | Health | Call for higher circumcision rate

Dr Colm O'Mahony, a sexual health expert from the Countess of Chester Foundation Trust Hospital in Chester, said the US had an "obsession" with circumcision being the answer to controlling sexually transmitted infections.
He said: "Sure, a dry skinned penis is a bit less likely to contract HIV, herpes and possibly genital warts but it will get infected eventually."
 

NOINRI

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"Sure, a dry skinned penis is a bit less likely to contract HIV, herpes and possibly genital warts....."

And there you have it folks.

I still say circumcised or not you'll still live as normal and fulfilling a life as the other so jerk it and enjoy. Just make sure you doubly and quadruply wash those uncircumcised ones. We don't want any infections or mushrooms growing up in there. Especially if you're going around shoving them in people's mouths. :)
 

mandoman

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And we thank you for showing your prejudice and bias, against 3.5 billion people.
Better people than you have called uncuts unclean, like the Old Testament, for instance.
Odd, if it were true, you would be hearing about it in People or the supermarket rags:
Mario Lopez Forgets to Wash His Dick
Woman Says Leonardo DiCaprio's Penis Smells Bad
Colin Ferrell Told to Wash Four Times
Man Grows Mushrooms In Mouth After Sucking Pierce Brosnan
Woman Refuses To Suck Luke Perry, Hygiene Called "Gross"

It wasn't true then, it isn't true now, and your thinly veiled attack just shows you to be a bigot.