Circumcision -Penn & Teller Showtime

Discussion in 'The Healthy Penis' started by azgreen, Apr 14, 2005.

  1. azgreen

    azgreen New Member

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    The Showtime cable series "Penn & Teller" will devote its 30-minute show on Monday night April 25, with repeats April 26 and 29 and May 6 to a pretty good and deserved assault on the practice of circumcision. The duo can be pretty crude and fierce. Their style should work very well on the mindlessness of the practice.
     
  2. bigsam

    bigsam Member

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    I don't happen to think its mindless. Do you think that most people here believe that it is? It has distinct benefits and (aside from any religious implications) I am quite glad that I am circumcised.
     
  3. Dr Rock

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    sigh. nobody's saying you're less of a person because you're circumcized, already. it's simply an unavoidable fact that the practise is unnecessary and without benefit. as a medical procedure, its only validity is in cases of chronic perennial infection. it is just pointless to do it otherwise, and neonatal circumcision is far worse than pointless because it's directly and permanently altering someone else's body without their consent.
     
  4. madame_zora

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    Well, of course there's nothing wrong with being circumsized, but it would be better as an elective surgery as an adult. I'd like to see how many healthy boys who grew up having a foreskin would choose that!

    ps., we already have this exact same thread going in Meet & Greet.
     
  5. lokican

    lokican Member

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    Yes and I'm sure its time penn and teller speak out against circumsion. Great social change only happens when magicans get involved
     
  6. Satsfakshun

    Satsfakshun Member

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    Sadly, my two adult nephews married hill jack girls who will probably instill such low expectations that that entire branch of the family tree will wither. I got the full brunt of there stupidity when I mentioned to one future niece/mother that fewer people were having their male babies circumsized. She stared at me for a moment as though I'd told her to kill the baby and then she said: "Oh no, he'll be circumsized. If he weren't, I'd probably barf all over him every time I change his diapers. Penises like that are so gross."

    Well, I immediately realized how capable she was of acting on the child's behalf. In fact, for a time, she was considering taking the baby back for further circumcision because she didn't think they'd taken enough off the first time!

    The other niece said she would never sleep with an un-circumsized guy because such penises are filthy and she wouldn't want one of her sons to be treated that way... Fortunately, she's not been blessed with a son, yet.

    In both cases, the ladies' reactions were irrational and emotional, bordering on hysteria. Both of my nephews, however, tend to agree with me, but they've long since given up trying to change their wives' minds about some things.
     
  7. jonb

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    Well, in her dialect, "Yeah, like, totally gross. Not."
     
  8. madame_zora

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    Geez, that's absolutely scary! I'm not against circumsicion, but after being here, I would never do it to someone until they were old enough to have a say in it. I can't imagine not even wanting to learn about it before making such a serious decision. If I'd had a boy, you can bet I would have researched it plenty.
     
  9. Knight

    Knight New Member

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    It looks gross? That's just like saying a person's big toe looks gross. Would you get that cut off as well? Foreskin is natural, circumcision isn't. I think whatever someone wants done to their body should be their choice.
     
  10. bigsam

    bigsam Member

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    I'm not trying to engage in an arguement about this, but I only want to point out that there ARE in fact several benefits and medical reasons for circumcision. Not the least of which is that they found out in a 10 year study that women married to uncircumcised men are 3x more likely to develop cervical cancer than those who were married to circumcised men.

    It also reduces the risk of male urinary tract infection and inflamatory dermatosis.

    I'm not saying that its something everyone should or shouldn't do...but its ignorant to say that there is specious or no medical benefit to it.
     
  11. jonb

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    And it also prevents tuberculosis, schizophrenia, and broken bones! Or at least it's been claimed to. Recent medical studies have discredited all the claims you made.

    For the record, UTIs are rare in males, and more often in circumcised babies than uncircumcised ones. And please, for the love of God, stick to surveys in the last 20 years.
     
  12. Dr Rock

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    well what ARE you doing then??

    they probably get cervical cancer because they're MARRIED, not because of their husbands' penises.

    balls. both those conditions are definitely very uncommon and definitely caused by specific illnesses (or sometimes allergies in the case of dermatosis, although I've never heard of it on or under the foreskin).
     
  13. bigsam

    bigsam Member

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    I'm not trying to argue...merely pointing out that the statement made was to the effect that the practice has no legitimacy whatsoever.

    As JonB states "all the claims I have made have been discounted by recent medical studies"...this isn't quite true as I've had recent studies to both effects illucidated to myself by my doctor and my former pediatrician. You can find anyone to say anything about any topic.

    As far as I'm concerned from a medical standpoint its still up for debate, and as far as I know, the cervical cancer study is actually quite recent, as it was determined that uncircumcised penises have a much higher incidence of carrying or maintaining living HPV which causes cervical cancer in women.

    There is also recent evidence that the chances of contracting HIV are much higher for an uncircumcised man through heterosexual intercourse.

    Quite frankly...you can choose to believe whichever medical literature you want to. Some doctors say one thing, some say another. Both camps have suporters within the medical community, and as such its difficult if not impossible to determine who is in fact right, or whether or not there is in fact a "right".

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I believe it displays a lack of understanding to simply state that your opinion is the one and only "right" one.

    Thats all I'm trying to say here. I fyou want to chew me out for my opinions then go ahead, but I don't want a war, just understanding.
     
  14. blackwood

    blackwood New Member

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    Yeah, circumsions are as neccesary in today's world as lobotomy. :D I guess I got the short end of the stick! :p
    [post=300723]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]

    Chimera,

    Check out www.gutenberg.org - An on-line book, regarding male vs female sex, sex development. An easy read, with some, pretty good stuff, relative to every-thing you have ever wanted to know about, briefly.


    blackwood
     
  15. Dr Rock

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    <!--QuoteBegin-Dr Rock
    @Apr 14 2005, 07:45 AM
    as a medical procedure, its only validity is in cases of chronic perennial infection.
    [post=300535]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/quote]

    yeah well I think you&#39;re kinda missing two incontrovertible points here:
    1) neonatal circumcision is unacceptable, period, because the person being circumcized is given no choice
    2) adult circumcision is extremely rare and (barring religious nutballs) only performed for the reasons given above. an uncircumcized man is not gonna VOLUNTARILY decide to get circumcized based on an assertion that "it might reduce your theoretical wife&#39;s risk of developing cervical cancer from 0.003% to 0.001%."

    why? because even if all that stuff is true, the risks remain insignificant - especially when compared with the benefits. nobody chooses to have parts of their body removed unless they have no other choices left.

    similarly, a doctor will not recommend or perform surgery unless it is necessary, because surgery always carries a risk. for a small-scale local operation like circumcision the risk is pretty negligible, but the principle remains one that doctors will not compromise without a very good reason.
     
  16. madame_zora

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    It seems to me that it&#39;s basically cosmetic surgery. We would never be having a discussion of whether to give an infant a nose job unless he couldn&#39;t breathe&#33; I think any unnecessary surgery would be avoided at all costs. I&#39;s like to hear figures on botched circumcisions to compare to any (perceived) benefits. What are the percentages of surgeries that go awry?
     
  17. willie

    willie New Member

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    I think there&#39;s far too much fuss, made over the whole subject.

    I was circumcised at 12 years old, because of a painfully tight foreskin. So I was mightily glad to be rid of the thing.
    It&#39;s always seemed to me, that it is less of a bother without one and more aesthetically pleasing.

    So I&#39;m happy and I don&#39;t think that girls really notice.
     
  18. Dr Rock

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    I&#39;m sure it&#39;s very low (at least I hope so), but when you consider that they&#39;re doing it to hundreds of kids every day, the numbers will inevitably stack up. I&#39;ve certainly heard and read plenty of horror stories.

    <!--QuoteBegin-willie
    @Apr 15 2005, 12:23 PM
    I was circumcised at 12 years old, because of a painfully tight foreskin. So I was mightily glad to be rid of the thing. [/quote]
    while phimosis is a distressing condition, yours must have been chronically severe if it didn&#39;t respond to conventional treatment. most cases are pretty easy to correct without surgery.

    :eyes: believe me, they notice. not many of them will be bothered enough either way to mention it, but I find they usually have some degree of preference.
     
  19. KinkGuy

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    This from the "mothers against circumcision" website:
    Sorry about the length.

    Many parents are led to believe that circumcision is safer than leaving the penis in its natural form. What they don’t know is that one out of every 500 circumcisions results in a serious complication. [Schmitt] About 4 out of 100 are either considered unsatisfactory or result in some sort of complication.

    One study was conducted that followed circumcised boys beyond the immediate post-operative period. It concluded that complications occurred at an alarming rate of 55%. [Patel]

    “Some children end up with adhesions and/or skin bridges which can impede hygiene and actually precipitate infections.” [Morgan] The most common complication is the removal of either too much or too little skin. [Williams] This may not become apparent until years later. Many circumcised adults complain that too much skin was removed. This can result in painful erections and bowing or curvature of the penis. Other common results not always noticed until later include extensive scarring, skin tags, and bleeding of the circumcision scar. Details & photos showing different types of damage (not usually apparent until adulthood)

    Many things can go wrong during a circumcision including hemorrhage, infections and damage to the penis. People tend to believe that the circumcised penis is less prone to problems. However, circumcised babies experience substantially more problems than the baby left intact.

    The glans is no longer protected by it&#39;s jacket -- the foreskin. The raw wound is exposed to fecal material and ammonia in urine. “Infection occurs after circumcision in up to 10% of patients.” [Williams] Repeated infections can cause a narrowing of the urinary opening (meatal stenosis). This may require surgical correction with the attendant risks yet again.

    A condition referred to as a trapped penis can occur as a result of circumcision. This may be the same thing as what is called a &#39;concealed penis&#39; where the "the penile shaft, following circumcision, retreats into the surrounding skin and fatty area and cannot be seen." [Circumcision Information Resource Pages Library]. Read The Inconspicuous Penis for more information. There is a rare penile deformity known as buried penis. If an infant with this condition is circumcised, the procedure could worsen the condition. Search the term "buried penis" at the CIRP Resource Search Engine for more information.

    Botched jobs often call for additional surgeries as well. Although seriously botched jobs are rare, most malpractice suits are settled. In exchange for the financial award, the malpractice charges against the doctor must be dropped. As a result, statistics on this type of incident are under-reported. See: List of Articles on Botched Jobs

    Excessive bleeding can require a blood transfusion with the attendant blood supply risks for HIV and other disease organisms. *Deaths do occur, but are usually blamed on something else and are under-reported as well. “Infections that lead to death are generally caused by tuberculosis, meningitis bacilli, systemic blood poisoning, or gangrene. These organisms enter the amputation wound because it provides easy entry, not because the child is predisposed to infection.” [Fleiss]

    In 1985, two boys were victims of staphylococcal infections. The port of entry was the circumcision wound. One boy died seven days later and the other is blind and a spastic quadriplegic. [NOCIRC]

    Even though death and serious mutilation are rare and extreme results, doctors who recommend circumcision should notify parents that from time to time, these things can and do happen. This would be a high price to pay for a procedure that has been proven to be neither medically or hygienically necessary.
     
  20. KinkGuy

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    Worldwide circ figures:

    Worldwide Statistics

    The population of the United States is 260 Million. The entire world population is 5 Billion, 700 Million. Out of those, 2 Billion, 647 Million are males currently living. 18% of them are circumcised.

    Of the world&#39;s male population, the breakdown of the circumcised and intact are:

    79 million American infant circs
    9 million American child or adult circs
    13 million Canada, UK, New Zealand & Australia infant circs
    27 million rest of world infant circs
    44 million child or adult circs other parts of world
    315 million Muslim child/adolescent circumcisions

    487 million = TOTAL MEN CIRCUMCISED WORLDWIDE (18%)
    2 billion 160 million = TOTAL MEN INTACT WORLDWIDE (82%)

    2 billion 647 million = Total Men Living Worldwide

    If it&#39;s so "unhealthy" to be intact.....there&#39;s sure a lot of whole men that seem to be survivingl.
     
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