Circumcision -Penn & Teller Showtime

[bigsam]

The cases noted from that article are results of a very very old and obscure orthodox ritual in which the mouth is actually used to stem the bleeding, and as such resulted in a transmission of oral herpes to the genetalia of the infants. This practice is very rare and I would be a hypocrit to say its wrong, but I do think that further precautions should be taken in this case to prevent transmission of such diseases.

In any case...I'm not trying to fight, I've stated my beliefs and why I hold them, if they're not good enough for anyone then let it be so. Kink Guy and I seem to be on the same page, and I totally appreciate that.

 

[madame_zora]

Bigsam, I don't think anyone is implying that your beliefs are wrong, just perhaps calling into question a particular practise. Even large groups have been known to review their practises from time to time and adjust as necessary. As circumcision rates drop in the US without mishap, the legitimacy of the claims of circumcision being done for health benefits have been weakened. Clearly, this is a religous choice, which is fine, but call it that. Even some Jews are electing a non-circumcision bris, although I don't know the reasons for this. Then we get into the moral issue of how much liscense should a parent take in making decisions for their child. I think the knee jerk reaction of many is that any UNNECESSARY surgery should be avioded at all costs, especially if it is not medically needed. If you feel it is necessary for you to practise your faith, then that's your call but I am relieved to hear that people are at least discussing it, because it does permanently altar a person's body, and I fell very much that the person should have the choice themselves.

 

[bigsam]

Perhaps I have gotten a bit touchy on the subject because I interpreted some people's reactions a certain way. I do not mean to imply that I would undertake the practice for any particular health benefit or that I think other people should. I am going to have a ritual circumcision for my son (if I have one) for religious purposes. I was under the impression that there were "alleged" medical benefits to it which have recently been called into question, as far as I'm concerned on that, the jury is still out.

However, Dr. Rock called me a religious wacko...and to me that sounds like calling my beliefs wrong.

I truly appreciate your candor and kindness though Madame...I knew I was opening a can of worms with this one.

 

[robertomuro]

Originally posted by bigsam@Apr 17 2005, 12:14 AM
Perhaps I have gotten a bit touchy on the subject because I interpreted some people's reactions a certain way. I do not mean to imply that I would undertake the practice for any particular health benefit or that I think other people should. I am going to have a ritual circumcision for my son (if I have one) for religious purposes. I was under the impression that there were "alleged" medical benefits to it which have recently been called into question, as far as I'm concerned on that, the jury is still out.

However, Dr. Rock called me a religious wacko...and to me that sounds like calling my beliefs wrong.

I truly appreciate your candor and kindness though Madame...I knew I was opening a can of worms with this one.

[post=301199]Quoted post[/post]​

I realise that oral blood sucking is an orthodox form of the bris. I can give you hundreds of other articles from ritual circumcisions to hospital circumcisions but I am sure you are capable of doing that yourself. I do think that Dr Rock's comment may have been a bit harsh although I can understand his viewpoint as you were defending something which is completely unthetical in our minds under the heading of religion. If Judaism required female circumcision you would be happily stating how you would circumcise your daughter here like many millions in the world still do. To many unethical things have been done in the name of religion (by almost all religions) and it's about time people stopped acting like sheep and thought about these things before doing them. I am not referring to doctrine itself (although I do believe faith is weak unless this is questioned as well) but about things like the crusades, the witch hunts etc..

 

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by bigsam@Apr 16 2005, 10:14 PM
Perhaps I have gotten a bit touchy on the subject because I interpreted some people's reactions a certain way. I do not mean to imply that I would undertake the practice for any particular health benefit or that I think other people should. I am going to have a ritual circumcision for my son (if I have one) for religious purposes. I was under the impression that there were "alleged" medical benefits to it which have recently been called into question, as far as I'm concerned on that, the jury is still out.

However, Dr. Rock called me a religious wacko...and to me that sounds like calling my beliefs wrong.

I truly appreciate your candor and kindness though Madame...I knew I was opening a can of worms with this one.

[post=301199]Quoted post[/post]​

Cans of worms need to be opened sometimes, God knows I do it myself plenty.

I'm sure you must be aware of how bizzarre it seems to anyone outside your religion that a non-medically trained and licensed physician is operating on baby penises so that God can identify them, right? Add bloodsucking to it and it seems vampirical. I know that you called it ancient and very rare, but there are in fact those who do still perform the bris in this manner. I personally find the fact that anesthesia is not being used (to my knowledge, or am I wrong?) pretty barbaric. I would not call YOU a religous whacko, but I do think of that ritual in that manner. Superstitious and unfounded on medical or scientific facts. Right up there with snake charmers, also an ancient tradition.

I still support any person's right to practice their religion in the manner they see fit. I doubt the Jewish faith is going to be quick to move, but they are not unknown to move. I know several Messianic Jews and Charismatic Catholics who are proof positive to me that we don't live in a "One faith fits all" society, and I hope there is room for all of us here in America, even in the no-longer-united states.

 

[lokican]

I wouldn't have expected that kind of reaction from a support group.

[post=301174]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]


Just because we are a support group doesn't mean we have to SUPPORT everyone view. These are discussion forums for debates and i see no problem debating circumsion. My sister said she will circumcise her future children, her fiancee is jewish but i wonder if thats the real reason. Anyways to be honest the bris cermoney is in my opinion barbaric. I know its not PC to critizise a non christain religion but how can you do that to an innoncent child?

Also Bigsam according to the jewish religion isnt tattoos and piercings no allowed cuse you can't change the body? Then how does circumsion fit in?

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by bigsam+Apr 16 2005, 09:03 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bigsam &#064; Apr 16 2005, 09:03 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Its just bothersome that a practice that I&#39;ve never heard of a complication from (done in a jewish ceremony by a moyel) which has been carried out for thousands of years is labled as WRONG because someone else doesn&#39;t believe in g-d.

[post=301174]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b]

still missing the point. I didn&#39;t say it was wrong BECAUSE god is cited as authority; I said it was wrong and that citing god as authority is NOT AN EXCUSE.

Originally posted by bigsam@Apr 16 2005, 10:14 PM
I am going to have a ritual circumcision for my son (if I have one) for religious purposes.

and how do you know your son is gonna be a practising jew when he grows up? he may not have any religious convictions, or he might find them elsewhere. and while I can&#39;t speak for everyone, if I thought my parent(s) tried to predict or predetermine aspects of my worldview before OR after birth, and especially if they had unnecessary surgery performed on me without my consent on that basis - I would be pissed as all hell.

However, Dr. Rock called me a religious wacko...and to me that sounds like calling my beliefs wrong.

belief in "god(s)" is wrong period, but that&#39;s a whole other issue.

<!--QuoteBegin-bigsam@Apr 16 2005, 09:03 PM
No one can prove the non existence of g-d any more than I can prove it. [/quote]
the burden of proof lies with the proponent - and considering the judaic/christian/islamic faith has had over 3,000 years and come up with precisely ZERO evidence over that time, are you honestly surprised that I can&#39;t take them seriously?

 

[prepstudinsc]

Genesis 17:1-14 explains the covenant of circumcision. It is a sign of obedience to God in all things and a sign of belonging to the convenant people. Once the male was circumcised, he would always be marked as a Jew, setting him apart from the pagan neighbor tribes.

In the book of Joshua 5:2-8, the Lord tells Joshua to make flint knives and circumcise the Israelites at Gibreath Haaraloth. The Jews have finally entered the Promised Land after wandering in the desert, but many died on the way out of Egypt. All the men of military age had died in the desert on the way after leaving Egypt, but all the young men born in the desert were uncircumcised. They all stayed in the camp until they were healed and the Lord took away the reproach of Egypt from them.

The fact that Jews circumcise set them apart and makes the eternal covenant that they have with God. The ritual doesn&#39;t mean that the boy will grow up to be a practicing Jew but it&#39;s a lot more complicated because it&#39;s a cultural and religious experience. I doubt that many Jewish people would argue in favor of keeping their foreskins because for thousands of years they haven&#39;t known any different AND it is a religious expression.

If I was Jewish, I would have my son circumcised and I wouldn&#39;t think twice about it.

I&#39;m not Jewish and if I have any sons, I will have them circumcised. I&#39;m cut and it hasn&#39;t bothered me in the least. I like being cut. I don&#39;t have any repressed memories about it. Both my parents were/are in medicine, so if they felt it was wrong, I know it wouldn&#39;t have been done.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by prepstudinsc@Apr 17 2005, 09:41 PM
The ritual doesn&#39;t mean that the boy will grow up to be a practicing Jew but it&#39;s a lot more complicated because it&#39;s a cultural and religious experience.

"cultural and religious experience." nice job, that&#39;s quite the best euphemism for "brutal mutilation in bloody supplication to ancient dogma" I&#39;ve ever heard&#33;

I doubt that many Jewish people would argue in favor of keeping their foreskins because for thousands of years they haven&#39;t known any different AND it is a religious expression.

:shrug: most of the jewish men I know and have known are not circumcized. most of the jewish women I know consider it to be an outdated practise, of questionable acceptability in the modern world. both of the jewish mothers I know did not circumcize their sons.

Both my parents were/are in medicine, so if they felt it was wrong, I know it wouldn&#39;t have been done.

[post=301512]Quoted post[/post]​

well that&#39;s great, but your views happen to coincide with your parents&#39;. a lot of people who are cut as kids are understandably more concerned with what THEY feel is wrong than with what their PARENTS felt was wrong. it&#39;s their bodies and not their parents&#39;, after all.

 

[bigsam]

I just wonder how many jewish people you know Dr. Rock...its entirely concievable that in the UK uncircumcised jews are common, but the Uk only has about 100,000 jews total. I myself have never met one (and it HAS been discussed frequently) amongst the hundreds I have met here in America.

Also Zora...I hate to open another can of worms, but most "standard" jews and rabbinical scholars do not consider messianic jews to actually be jewish, as the jews for jesus movement (the same thing) was started by a christian missionary explicitly to convert jews to belief in Jesus. Although I see the point you are making in that comment.

 

[blackwood]

Originally posted by azgreen@Apr 14 2005, 04:53 AM
The Showtime cable series "Penn & Teller" will devote its 30-minute show on Monday night April 25, with repeats April 26 and 29 and May 6 to a pretty good and deserved assault on the practice of circumcision. The duo can be pretty crude and fierce. Their style should work very well on the mindlessness of the practice.

[post=300520]Quoted post[/post]​

azgreen 04/14

Those circumscized individuals SHOULD most definitely be "satisfied". Not worth the anxiety of if it (had not or if it) was done at birth. There are a lot more topics worth taking up.

On the other hand, those having children should think twice. The foreskin (as all who have, realize) adds a sort of rolling action on penitration reducing the friction of intercourse. I personally have experienced relatively easy penitration when combined with the precoital fluid of my partner, as well as my own. My foreskin is short(very) and never does cover my glans, unless physically pulled over the glans.

Neither of my sons were circumscized and have never complained about it.

Two cents worth?

blackwood

 

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by bigsam@Apr 18 2005, 01:23 PM
I just wonder how many jewish people you know Dr. Rock...its entirely concievable that in the UK uncircumcised jews are common, but the Uk only has about 100,000 jews total. I myself have never met one (and it HAS been discussed frequently) amongst the hundreds I have met here in America.

Also Zora...I hate to open another can of worms, but most "standard" jews and rabbinical scholars do not consider messianic jews to actually be jewish, as the jews for jesus movement (the same thing) was started by a christian missionary explicitly to convert jews to belief in Jesus. Although I see the point you are making in that comment.

[post=301674]Quoted post[/post]​

Oh, sorry, then I was showing my ignorance. I don&#39;t know many Jews, I thought Messianic Jews were an accepted sect like various Christian sects. I didn&#39;t mean to be insulting, if I was. I basically heard about them from a Charismatic Catholic lady with whom I had the pleasure of a lengthy religous discourse one day. It was news to me that such a thing existed.

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by bigsam@Apr 18 2005, 01:23 PM
I just wonder how many jewish people you know Dr. Rock...its entirely concievable that in the UK uncircumcised jews are common, but the Uk only has about 100,000 jews total. I myself have never met one (and it HAS been discussed frequently) amongst the hundreds I have met here in America.

[post=301674]Quoted post[/post]​

:shrug: I never met any uncircumized jews in america either, as far as I know. however there&#39;s a lot less relevance to that when the majority of non-jews in america are also circumcized.

 

[SomeGuyOverThere]

If God doesnt want his people to have forskin, then answer me this: Why&#39;d he give us it in the first place eh?


*uncircumsized and proud UK male speaking*

 

[Mr._dB]

Originally posted by SomeGuyOverThere@Apr 18 2005, 04:41 PM
If God doesnt want his people to have forskin, then answer me this: Why&#39;d he give us it in the first place eh?


*uncircumsized and proud UK male speaking*

[post=301806]Quoted post[/post]​

If you&#39;ve ever gotten sand inside your foreskin, you&#39;ll begin to understand why circumcision seems to be prevalent amongst desert peoples such as the Jews, Arabs, Australian Aborigines, and so forth.

However, for those of us who live in areas with running water and indoor plumbing, it seems to be a rather anachronistic practice. The Jews could probably replace the cutting with a bloodletting ceremony of some sort and still satisfy Abraham&#39;s Covenant.

 

[jonb]

Sand? Then why Filipinos and why not Hopis? (Oh, and for the record, Australian aboriginal circumcision involves a slit under the penis all the way up the urethra. Yeah, wonderful way to deal with sand.)

There was a similar myth about the foreskin being more likely to experience frostbite, yet from the Lapps and Eskimos all the way down south to the Yagan, peoples in cold climates don&#39;t circumcise.

 

[lokican]

If you&#39;ve ever gotten sand inside your foreskin, you&#39;ll begin to understand why circumcision seems to be prevalent amongst desert peoples such as the Jews, Arabs, Australian Aborigines, and so forth.

However, for those of us who live in areas with running water and indoor plumbing, it seems to be a rather anachronistic practice. The Jews could probably replace the cutting with a bloodletting ceremony of some sort and still satisfy Abraham&#39;s Covenant.

[post=301887]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]


Didnt early jewish cirumcision only cut the tip of the foreskin and leave mose of the foreskin itact?

 

[Dr Rock]

I think it&#39;s less an issue of the sand than the fact that it&#39;s impossible to wash when you live in a desert all the time. if you have access to some kind of bathing water, you&#39;re not gonna worry about occasionally getting a bit of sand under your foreskin, because you can wash it off in 10 seconds. if you already barely have enough water to drink, it&#39;s gonna be a worry - not because you&#39;ve then gotta remove the stuff manually, but because the tiny UNNOTICED grains would abrade the soft skin under the foreskin (infection hazard).

nowadays, there are clearly better ways around these and other problems, but for the tribes living in the arabian interior 5,000 years ago, circumcision would have made some sense. the DUMB part was going to live in the fucking desert in the first place.

Originally posted by lokican@Apr 19 2005, 04:40 AM
Didnt early jewish cirumcision only cut the tip of the foreskin and leave mose of the foreskin itact?

[post=301938]Quoted post[/post]​

sadly, we will probably never know now - there&#39;s so much bullshit flying around from both proponents and opponents concerning the origins of the practise that I doubt we&#39;ll ever get a good idea.

 

[robertomuro]

If you&#39;ve ever gotten sand inside your foreskin, you&#39;ll begin to understand why circumcision seems to be prevalent amongst desert peoples such as the Jews, Arabs, Australian Aborigines, and so forth.

However, for those of us who live in areas with running water and indoor plumbing, it seems to be a rather anachronistic practice. The Jews could probably replace the cutting with a bloodletting ceremony of some sort and still satisfy Abraham&#39;s Covenant.

[post=301887]Quoted post[/post]​

Didnt early jewish cirumcision only cut the tip of the foreskin and leave mose of the foreskin itact?

[post=301938]Quoted post[/post]​

[/quote]

Yes. The original and current circumcisions actually have different names which I can not remember off hand (not suprisingly as I do not speak hebrew). The catholic church has been against circumcision entirely throughout history. More info on this can be read at http://www.cirp.org/library/cultural/dietzen1/

 

[jonb]

The theory I&#39;ve always had is that it goes back to ritual uncleanliness, bloodletting to protect the boy from his mother being "unclean" after birth. Obviously, the child has to have some contact with his mother after he&#39;s born, and she&#39;ll probably menstruate before he&#39;s weaned.