Circumcision -Penn & Teller Showtime

Mr._dB

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Originally posted by lokican@Apr 18 2005, 11:40 PM


Didnt early jewish cirumcision only cut the tip of the foreskin and leave mose of the foreskin itact?
[post=301938]Quoted post[/post]​

Supposedly. THe old brit milah procedure is said to have removed a lot less skin than the later brit periah full circumcision.

It has been suggested that Michaelangelo's statue of David, which appears to be uncut, might not be entirely innacurate, given the type of procedure that was performed in David's time.
 

bigsam

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JonB...as far as your theory of uncleanlieness, I don't think that really applies.

It is true that orthodox men and women are not supposed to come into physical contact after a woman's menstruation until they visit a ritual bath, but this has never really applied between women and their children beneath the age of manhood (13, or their bar mitzvah year).

I have asked a rabbi about the origins of the practice, and while there seems to be rabbinic agreement about the origins of certain practices (i.e. kosher for sanitary purposes) there doesn't seem to be an agreed upon orogin of circumcision except that it is the covenenat between abraham and g-d.
 

jimmyjoejeater

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Originally posted by Dr Rock@Apr 14 2005, 02:45 AM
sigh. nobody's saying you're less of a person because you're circumcized, already. it's simply an unavoidable fact that the practise is unnecessary and without benefit. as a medical procedure, its only validity is in cases of chronic perennial infection. it is just pointless to do it otherwise, and neonatal circumcision is far worse than pointless because it's directly and permanently altering someone else's body without their consent.
[post=300535]Quoted post[/post]​


I agree! Oh yes I do and strongly! I wish I had been given the choice and I have strong feelings about this. I am a nurse and I see the effects of a prepuce that is too tight and the infections caused by them but these are not the norm. To mutilate an infants penis without his consent is barbaric! How do we feel about the practice of female curcumsisoin in Afganastan where they cut the clitoris and vulva off of a pubecent girl when she has her first menstral cycle? I have heard many people voice their outrage tward this practice and yet parents are cutting 11% of the most sensitive part of their sons penises off every day and that is acceptable?!?!?

Jimmy
 

jonb

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Actually, it's not in Afghanistan where FGM occurs. It's mostly in northern and eastern Africa.
 

jimmyjoejeater

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Originally posted by jonb@Apr 23 2005, 12:24 AM
Actually, it's not in Afghanistan where FGM occurs. It's mostly in northern and eastern Africa.
[post=303655]Quoted post[/post]​


Thank you. I was aware of this practice in eastern aferica but was not aware that that is where it is most prelevent.

Jimmy
 

azgreen

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Originally posted by jimmyjoejeater+Apr 23 2005, 10:38 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jimmyjoejeater &#064; Apr 23 2005, 10:38 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-jonb@Apr 23 2005, 12:24 AM
Actually, it&#39;s not in Afghanistan where FGM occurs. It&#39;s mostly in northern and eastern Africa.
[post=303655]Quoted post[/post]​


Thank you. I was aware of this practice in eastern aferica but was not aware that that is where it is most prelevent.

Jimmy
[post=303798]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
 

azgreen

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We&#39;ve been talking extensively on this, but just a reminder that on Monday night (April 25), Showtime will finally air that season premiere show of "Penn & Teller Bull---t," which will vociferously debunk and discredit the intrusive, repulsive procedure of circumcision. It will air again later that night and on April 26, April 29 and May 6. Check your local listings. May this be one more assault that reaches yet another audience about the indecency of the cruel ripoff that is circumcision.

azgreen
 

prepstudinsc

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Originally posted by azgreen@Apr 24 2005, 08:50 PM
We&#39;ve been talking extensively on this, but just a reminder that on Monday night (April 25), Showtime will finally air that season premiere show of "Penn & Teller Bull---t," which will vociferously debunk and discredit the intrusive, repulsive procedure of circumcision. It will air again later that night and on April 26, April 29 and May 6. Check your local listings. May this be one more assault that reaches yet another audience about the indecency of the cruel ripoff that is circumcision.

azgreen
[post=304350]Quoted post[/post]​

I hardly think that circumcision is intrusive and repulsive. I wonder what you think of those of us who have been circumcised? You don&#39;t have to agree with the procedure, but you don&#39;t have to make it out to be like it&#39;s the worst thing in the world. It&#39;s always going happen in the Jewish and Muslim cultures since it is part of their religious identity. It may be starting to fade out of popularity in the United States, but in the more traditional areas like the South and the Midwest, it will always have a stronghold, because fathers who are cut will have their sons done.
You don&#39;t have to like circumcision, but there are some of us who happen to like being cut.
 

willie

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I don&#39;t like being called repulsive.
And
What is the fuss all about?
I would have said that the pros and cons are fairly evenly balanced.
In the UK being circumcised puts me well in the minority, but I can remember anybody ever commenting on it, one way or the other.

Personally I rather like the effect and it&#39;s low maintenance, so given the choice I would stay as I am.
 

Dr Rock

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Originally posted by prepstudinsc@Apr 25 2005, 11:37 AM
You don&#39;t have to agree with the procedure, but you don&#39;t have to make it out to be like it&#39;s the worst thing in the world.
uh. the point is that a lot of men who were circumcized at birth DO feel it&#39;s the worst thing in the world, or at least the worst thing to happen to them. why do you think people complain about it so much?

It&#39;s always going happen in the Jewish and Muslim cultures since it is part of their religious identity.
fuck their religious identity in the eye-socket. I&#39;m so fucking fed up with hearing religion cited as some unassailably reasonable justification for every retarded thing people do. religion is not sacrosanct, it&#39;s not justifiable, and it&#39;s not even slightly clever.

but in the more traditional areas like the South and the Midwest, it will always have a stronghold, because fathers who are cut will have their sons done.
... and therein lies the entire problem, because (since I assume you haven&#39;t been paying attention) the bottom line is that fathers or anyone else have NO RIGHT to have their sons cut. no matter what anyone might think about the reasons or benefits of circumcision for themselves, they do NOT have the right to make that decision for anyone else - least of all the human lives they have taken it upon themselves to create and raise. children are NOT extensions of their parents, and it&#39;s long, LONG past time all the idiots who should never have been allowed to breed realized that.

You don&#39;t have to like circumcision, but there are some of us who happen to like being cut.
[post=304479]Quoted post[/post]​
well sure - I quite like my cannibalized 1973 motorcycle, but then I&#39;ll never be able to afford a harley. people in general need to quit equating their dicks to their self-esteem, and that goes double for the circumcision issue. nobody&#39;s claiming that being circumcized makes you less of a PERSON, only that you end up with less of a PENIS, and that obviously can&#39;t be considered a good thing.
 

azgreen

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Once again -- and it has been stated and restated here aptly and earnestly -- there is something precious called "sovereignty over one&#39;s own body," having a modicum of self-determination over what it done or not done to own&#39;s body. You can opine all you want about parents&#39; "duty" to ensure health through vaccinations, etc., but there are clear, ethical limits to how far that extends. Ordering the cutting off of a functional, purposeful, nature-deemed-worthy structure of the body of a helpless young human being goes over that line. Genital integrity says the foreskin belongs there. It has many functions.
You can feed yourself, count your change and catch a ball with a hand with just four fingers, but five are better. Sex alone is a different mechanical action without a foreskin. Of course, it can be done. But parents should have the good sense and instincts to realize they shouldn&#39;t be ordering the cutting off of ear lobes, labias, foreskins or pinky fingers to satisfy their biases or traditions. If circumcision was such a good idea, uncut men would be marching into doctors offices. They aren&#39;t. Maybe males want to keep what they were given. The cut who think they are not missing anything simply don&#39;t know what they are missing.
 

prepstudinsc

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uh. the point is that a lot of men who were circumcized at birth DO feel it&#39;s the worst thing in the world, or at least the worst thing to happen to them. why do you think people complain about it so much?

[post=304505]Quoted post[/post]​

I don&#39;t know why they complain about something that they don&#39;t know about. I can&#39;t complain about something that I haven&#39;t experienced the other side. My penis works just fine the way it is...I have more than enough sensitivity. These people who say they have repressed memories about being cut and stuff is just a bunch of hogwash. There&#39;s no way that they can remember back to being a few days old. One of my college roomates was cut over a Christmas vacation our junior year due to phimosis and some recurring infections because he couldn&#39;t retract his foreskin properly. His doctor wanted to just make a small incision to loosen the foreskin, my roomate said that he told the doctor if he was going to cut it at all, to just take it off. He says it was the best thing he did, he prefers it now--being CUT, and wished his parents had it done to him as a baby so he wouldn&#39;t have had the trouble of going through it as an adult.

fuck their religious identity in the eye-socket. I&#39;m so fucking fed up with hearing religion cited as some unassailably reasonable justification for every retarded thing people do. religion is not sacrosanct, it&#39;s not justifiable, and it&#39;s not even slightly clever.

You&#39;re not religious, you hate religion, I&#39;m not going to even discuss this point with you.

... and therein lies the entire problem, because (since I assume you haven&#39;t been paying attention) the bottom line is that fathers or anyone else have NO RIGHT to have their sons cut. no matter what anyone might think about the reasons or benefits of circumcision for themselves, they do NOT have the right to make that decision for anyone else - least of all the human lives they have taken it upon themselves to create and raise. children are NOT extensions of their parents, and it&#39;s long, LONG past time all the idiots who should never have been allowed to breed realized that.

It doesn&#39;t matter that it&#39;s the right or isn&#39;t the right...you don&#39;t understand the culture in the South or the Midwest for that matter. The American South is a place that is totally like anywhere else in the world. When you get into the rural areas, it is the land that time forgot...society is still living with cultural mores from 50 or 60 years ago in some areas. Things do not change quickly. The mentality is that if it was good enough for my daddy, it&#39;s good enough for me, and it will be good enough for my son... That type of thinking will carry on for generations. That is how people buy cars, where they buy farm implements, where they buy animal feed, which church they go to, which college they go to, etc. It&#39;s just a fact that in traditional areas, most White kids are going to be circumcised...you might not like it, but it&#39;s the way it is. All my friends are cut, the ones with sons all have had them cut. It was no question. It&#39;s just the way it&#39;s done. You may not think it&#39;s right, but it&#39;s just the way people in this area think--it&#39;s the cultural mindset.
 

Pappy

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I want to know just who decided the cut guys were missing anything by not having a foreskin. Oh wait , now I realize what we&#39;re missing. We&#39;re missing all the problems that can be caused by having a foreskin, you know the head cheese, the stench that wreaks from the crotches of most un-cut men, the foreskin that causes pain because it&#39;s too tight, getting it caught in your zipper because you were in a rush to zip up, just to name a few.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion on the subject, but don&#39;t tell me I&#39;m missing anything because you do know how it feels to be cut. And to that end, it just might be the UNCUT GUYS that are missing out&#33;&#33;
 

willie

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Originally posted by Pappy@Apr 25 2005, 04:35 PM
Everyone has a right to their own opinion on the subject, but don&#39;t tell me I&#39;m missing anything because you do know how it feels to be cut. And to that end, it just might be the UNCUT GUYS that are missing out&#33;&#33;
Well said sir&#33;

I can speak from the experience of having been circumcised in my teens and I can tell you exactly why men are not queuing up at the doctors, to have it done. It&#39;s bloody uncomfortable, for over a month.

I was given the option of other treatments, but why bother, I was quite happy to see it gone.

The tight foreskin was quite possibly a genetic problem, because my son had to make the same decision.
The only thing he wanted to know, is seeing as I knew that there was a likely problem, why didn&#39;t I get him done, when it was a much smaller operation.
It was because of the foreskin evangelists.

I&#39;ve now had over 30 maintenance free years and couldn&#39;t be happier with my penis, the way it is. I suspect this is the view of the overwhelming majority of circumcised men. (Is there a survey?)
 

Dr Rock

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Originally posted by prepstudinsc+Apr 25 2005, 01:41 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(prepstudinsc &#064; Apr 25 2005, 01:41 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>I don&#39;t know why they complain about something that they don&#39;t know about.[/b]

duhhh. they complain BECAUSE they don&#39;t know about it. you&#39;d complain if someone had cut your thumbs off or twisted your ankles when you were born, because you&#39;d never be able to write a letter or dance. or whatever. it&#39;s not exactly a difficult principle to understand.

These people who say they have repressed memories about being cut and stuff is just a bunch of hogwash. There&#39;s no way that they can remember back to being a few days old.
it doesn&#39;t particularly matter whether they have "repressed memories" or whether they had botched circumcisions or any of the other reasons they might have. they&#39;re still pissed off about it, and as people have repeatedly pointed out, they have a right to be pissed off even without any further problems.

He says it was the best thing he did, he prefers it now--being CUT, and wished his parents had it done to him as a baby so he wouldn&#39;t have had the trouble of going through it as an adult.
:eyes: I don&#39;t know if you&#39;re deliberately trying to be dense here or what - your roommate certainly was. why the hell would his parents have him circumcized at birth if they didn&#39;t know he was gonna develop physiological problems later on? of course he had to go through it as an adult, because problem of that nature don&#39;t usually even begin to manifest until adolescence. life&#39;s a bitch like that; some of us get unlucky. I know of very few people who haven&#39;t had to go through some painful and harrowing experience(s) that they&#39;d rather not have. and since it was his decision and against his doctor&#39;s recommendations, blaming his parents for being less spineless under peer-pressure than he was is not really very constructive.

It doesn&#39;t matter that it&#39;s the right or isn&#39;t the right...you don&#39;t understand the culture in the South or the Midwest for that matter.
... and I don&#39;t care. none of that makes neonatal circumcision any less inexcusable. what you&#39;ve essentially said there is "it&#39;s okay to be wilfully retarded and shit all over other people&#39;s rights so long as everyone else is also doing it." sorry, no. that&#39;s the same kind of nonargument that&#39;s been used to facilitate most of the worst atrocities in our species&#39; sad history, and it doesn&#39;t get any fresher when it&#39;s applied to cutting kids&#39; foreskins off as well.

<!--QuoteBegin-Pappy
@Apr 25 2005, 02:35 PM
We&#39;re missing all the problems that can be caused by having a foreskin, you know the head cheese, the stench that wreaks from the crotches of most un-cut men, the foreskin that causes pain because it&#39;s too tight, getting it caught in your zipper because you were in a rush to zip up, just to name a few.[/quote]
:eyes: and how many people do you think have those problems? cos I sure don&#39;t know any. they&#39;re no more common than physiological dysfunctions with any other part of the body, and a lot less common than most.

And to that end, it just might be the UNCUT GUYS that are missing out&#33;&#33;
[post=304542]Quoted post[/post]​
:lol: yeah okay. us and the rest of the class Mammalia. evolution is clearly in the wrong. I mean, an entire freakshow gallery of 19th century crackpots said so&#33; :thumbsdown:
 

willie

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Originally posted by Dr Rock@Apr 25 2005, 06:41 PM
duhhh. they complain BECAUSE they don&#39;t know about it. you&#39;d complain if someone had cut your thumbs off or twisted your ankles when you were born, because you&#39;d never be able to write a letter or dance. or whatever. it&#39;s not exactly a difficult principle to understand.

I would complain about it if somebody cut off my thumbs at birth.
However, if they removed something as obsolete as my appendix, I would be more grateful.

The foreskin is a much closer analogy to the appendix, than a thumb.

The human body is full of features and reflexes that are more appropriate to the stone age, than the 21st century.
 

Dr Rock

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ahh bullshit. that may be YOUR experience; sorry about that. while I can&#39;t speak for anyone else, I know MY foreskin has several very important purposes - and that ain&#39;t any kind of "science" talking, just my experience. considering the nerve endings I WOULDN&#39;T have without it, personally I&#39;d probably find it easier to live without a few fingers or an eye; it&#39;d certainly be less frustrating.
 

jonb

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Originally posted by willie@Apr 25 2005, 07:03 AM
I&#39;ve now had over 30 maintenance free years and couldn&#39;t be happier with my penis, the way it is. I suspect this is the view of the overwhelming majority of circumcised men. (Is there a survey?)
[post=304551]Quoted post[/post]​
Maintenance-free? You never wash it? You never go to the free clinic?
 

willie

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Originally posted by jonb@Apr 25 2005, 11:56 PM
Maintenance-free? You never wash it? You never go to the free clinic?
It&#39;s serviced regularly, but has never needed any treatment.
As for washing, it has no special requirements. (However it does seem to like being washed)
Free clinic?