Circumcision: Pros?

Discussion in 'The Healthy Penis' started by Symphonic, Dec 31, 2008.

  1. Symphonic

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    Okay, so I'm just cruising around and I get into a conversation about circumcision. I present my side, the fact that there are no facts about it's being good for you in any marginal measurement, and they present theirs, by which the only valid one was that it prevents disease ( aesthetics isn't valid / ethical for reasoning ), so I actually have a knowledge question for you:

    Do you know of any sources that state that being circumcised greatly reduces the risk of dieases? I don't. I heard about the thing in Africa with Aids, but that's about all I realize as being of any value. So the question stands; do you know of anything?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Silvertip

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    About the only health benefit I've ever heard of circumcision providing is in preventing the pain and inconvenience suffered by the tiny fraction of men who have to be circumcised as adults, due to chronic infections or other foreskin related maladies. But to say that's a reason for circumcising all baby boys is like making all fast food restaurants illegal because some people have a problem with obesity. No, I think religious and aesthetic reasons are about all that are out there. I'm perfectly happy being circumcised (been that way since birth) but I sure wouldn't try to justify the practice for reasons of health.
     
  3. SteveHd

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    There are none! :wink:

    To be fair, I'll say that the HIV linkage is about the only one that's still "in play".

    There are a number of outdated studies that state circumcision reduces the risk of UTI's, HPV transmission, penile cancer, and some others, but those have been largely discredited. HPV transmission was discredited not too many years ago and so there's many who still believe in that being reduced.
     
  4. lokican

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    Their has been some studies done by the WHO that advocated circumcision. because it reduces the risk of HIV. This is a situation unique to Africa, where aids has affected mostly hetrosexuals and Aids has devastated many of the countries their.
    In the west it is gay men who are most at risk for aids, and only a minority of the population is infected. They did a study looking at circumcision in the west, and it was felt it would not be an effective tool to fight aids.
     
  5. seattleguy77

    seattleguy77 New Member

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    Possibly – try here
    http://www.idsociety.org/Content.aspx?id=12952
    Male Circumcision May Decrease Risk of HPV Infection and Cervical Cancer
    “Two new studies suggest that male circumcision may assist in the prevention of human papillomavirus (HPV) infection, particularly infection with the high-risk subtypes associated with cervical, penile, and other cancers. Both studies are published in the January 1 issue [2009] of The Journal of Infectious Diseases, now available online.”
     
  6. Hangman1

    Hangman1 New Member

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    There are studies on this that are still underway
     
  7. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    There are books about it. Try A Surgical Temptation by Robert Darby and Marked In Your Flesh by Leonard B. Glick. Both were published in the last year or two.

    Darby makes the point that circumcision vis a vis AIDS is circumcision vis a vis syphilis circa 19th century. Deja vu. There is no modern rationale for genital cutting. Just too many years of superstitions and fear mongering. Every time there's a circ thread people start with the same old outmoded unfounded garbage.
     
  8. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    Here we go with HPV and genital cancers again. Even if there is some link, why not let adults deal with adult health risks? There is a vaccine for HPV now. Penile cancer is extremely rare, rare enough that reliable numbers are difficult to obtain. And it is a disease primarily of extreme age and is easily treatable if caught early, like most skin cancers.

    Since we don't "treat" other diseases preemptively by amputating body parts of babies, you may ask yourself why is there this lone exception?
     
  9. Phil Ayesho

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    Once more... people who say there are none are always the evangelical foreskin freaks who understand evidence about as well as 911 "truthers".

    A long term study in Africa found it reduces HIV transmission.

    The US adopting RIC resulted in a dramatic reduction in Syphilis and Gonorrhea transmission- despite the sexual revolution.

    ( 15 years later.... just as legalization of Abortion caused a dramatic drop in violent crime... 15 years later... due to the simple fact of fewer unwanted and neglected children. )
    (BTW- crime rates have also risen, in those areas which have made laws making abortions harder to obtain--- 15 years after )

    And studies of Jewish populations show a significantly lower transmission rate of certain specific STDs across all long term medical records.

    There are CURRENT scientific studies ongoing, RIGHT NOW, trying to determine HOW the foreskin increases the transmission rates of certain STDs... ( not 'whether', but how )

    Right now the prevailing theory has to do with the nature of the epithelial cells lining the interior of the foreskin, but that has not yet been demonstrated.


    So , please, don't rely on propaganda, nor on information provided by those with an agenda.

    I don't give a rats ass whether people are or are not circumcised. I am not specifically PRO nor CON.... But I do take exception to manipulations of scientific findings, mischaracterizations of study results, and the efforts of extremist minorities to IMPOSE their compulsions on everyone thru law, especially when they do so by promulgating half truths and outright lies.

    I happen to find a cut cock far more attractive... but, as you say, that has no scientific bearing on whether the procedure has a concrete health benefit.


    All that being said... the statistical difference in transmission rates is not large.
    It reduces your chances of getting the disease only if you tend to have sex with people who MIGHT be infected... and it only improves your odds by about 8 to 10%.
    The actual studies show smaller numbers in the US, but that is because MOST people are not infected....
    When interpolated to a per sexual encounter with an infected partner... the number become far more significant.

    The reason these studies in Africa show such an noticeable effect, as opposed to similar studies in the US or Europe, is because a LARGE percentage of the people there are infected... and many of the cultures in Africa show men in multiple mistress situations... Not just one infidelity at a time, here and there... but men having sex with 3 or 4 different women concurrently.
    All of this acts to distill out the real effect on transmission rates because far more sexual encounters involve one infected partner.

    10% reduction per encounter with an infected person does not sound like much...
    But across a population of 20 million, that's 200 thousand fewer infections.

    And when the Rate of infection falls below a certain threshold... as it has in the US... the chain reaction of pandemic is broken.

    For most people living in western society, where transmission rates are already low, this is not such a great benefit that it would be a valid reason to get circumcised.


    However... to say that it offers NO health benefit at all is patently false.

    Its just a lie those obsessed with EVERYONE'S foreskin use to sway people into voluntarily giving up their rights and criminalizing the procedure.

    It's like Bush and the WMD stories.... you tell the narrative you think will get people to acquiesce to your agenda.

    Like Bush and Cheney... they believe their own propaganda.... and can't even cop to the fact that is always was a purposeful lie... instead they just warp reality and confuse the issue to try and make their lie seem plausible.


    AVOID zealots of EVERY stamp.
    They live in a delusional world.
     
  10. nikebasketball18

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    All interested should see this thread: http://www.lpsg.org/112526-vote-end-routine-infant-circumcision.html

    Take a peek at my post here: http://www.lpsg.org/112526-vote-end-routine-infant-circumcision-34.html#post1905208

    I could not agree more with Phil Ayesho (above Vote to end Routine Infant Circumcision - didn't reply because it was too long). However, I strongly disagree with his notion to involve the government, it's simply not necessary. In addition, the people should have the power to choose how to groom their children.

    As for my personal beliefs, I came to the conclusion that my male children will be circumcised with limitation. I will ensure that the doctor performing the procudure understands my exact specifications and if any doubt is present, I will not hesitate to find another doctor. At this point in time, I think that circumcision is of the best health practice, but I also think that the dudes who are uncut seem to have the most fun. I guess that's my opinion. ;)

    I'm mostly confident that I will have the doctor leave as much of the foreskin as possible while maintaining the function of a circumcised penis. One could say that this would allow for the best of both worlds. :p
     
  11. Phil Ayesho

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    Bullshit. Women with two copies of certain cancer prone genes are electing to have their natural breast removed and replaced with artificial breasts.

    Hell, we actually ABORT fetuses in utero who are found to have certain genetic diseases like tay sachs.


    But, that aside, you offer a typically falacious logic...
    Inoculating and vaccinating children results in SOME SMALL FRACTION of children becoming ill, sometimes deathly ill.
    It always has...
    Yet the State has the authority to mandate vaccinations in perfectly healthy children to prevent epidemics of disease.

    People with Antibiotic resistant tuberculosis can have their freedom to travel stripped from them in the public interest.

    But even THAT aside...

    Even if your argument were based upon truths... which it isn't...

    You have not made a compelling argument as to why it should be made illegal.


    Parents are legally responsible for their minor children. They routinely make life and death decisions every day.
    Especially health related decisions.

    I can effectively offer a good argument for not allowing parents to DENY medical care, for religious resons, because children DIE from that.

    But you can not offer any accepted science that shows the same threat exists for RIC.

    There are many reasons people circumcise their kids... most of them having to do with heritage and cultural continuity.

    You must offer a COMPELLING argument showing REAL INJURY and a State interest, to deny whole populations of people the right to live by their beliefs.

    You must show that, making it illegal will not result in MORE harm as people whose religious beliefs demand it try and do it themselves.

    Like prohibition... the outlawing of any behavior must not create a GREATER harm.

    Argue against it all you want... but making it illegal is fascist. When ideology supersedes individual rights... that is fascism.


    So- all whining about your precious peckers aside....

    Even if you believe it is of no real benefit... that in itself is NOT a valid argument for criminalizing it.

    DEMONSTRATE a compelling argument for it being harmful that is not rooted in ambiguous feelings about "missing" a useless vestigial piece of skin.
    That argument is as vapid as the aesthetic argument.

    And explain how people doing it themselves underground, because they WILL, is not going to cause a greater harm.


    Or are you going to eliminate equal treatment under the law and set up, say, Jews, as a privileged class who can break the law with impunity While anyone else get imprisoned?


    Before abortion was legal in the US, it STILL happened. The affluent had no trouble arranging safe ones... and the poor were stuck with back alley coat hanger technicians.


    Come on... ONE good solid evidentiary argument why the government should be given the power to imprison people over circumcision.
     
  12. D_CountdeGrandePinja

    D_CountdeGrandePinja Account Disabled

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    Like what you have - be clean - whether cut or not - those of us who are uncut have the best of both worlds - happy '09.
     
  13. herkimer snow

    herkimer snow New Member

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    "AVOID zealots of EVERY stamp.
    They live in a delusional world."

    Especially the pro-circ zealots, who are just plain scary.
     
  14. surferboy

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    omg, not again, these topics should be deleted on sight.
     
  15. Symphonic

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    Hm, I never knew there was so much information out there on this. I must take it all into consideration.
     
  16. SteveHd

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    Is someone forcing you to read this and other circ. threads? If you don't like the topic, don't click it. Got that?

    Symphonic asked a fair question, I.M.O.
    There is a lot of "information" in the replies but much of it is anecdotal or unsubstantiated. Note that only one so far actually referenced a credible source.

    Question: Is your question about infant or adult circumcision?

    Infant and adult circumcision are often conflated but I regard them as separate cases. Note that most of the reasons given so far in this thread pertain to adults.
     
  17. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    Donno where Phil gets his info. Sure we've all heard that circ is better than sliced bread, but is it? Routine infant circumcision reduced gonorrhea and syphilis? Babies are not having sex. Unless the mother is infected, their risk is absolute zero.

    Key word here is women. We do not amputate breast buds of infants.

    This is a twentieth century myth, and has been debunked again and again. Besides, Jews never did circ based on supposed health reasons. They do it because they believe it is a religious covenant. Lower rates of STDs are attributable to common lifestyle factors that may or may not be unique to religious people, like long term marital fidelity--NOT having parts of your genitals surgically removed at birth.

    All of your reasons Phil are arguments after the fact to your foregone conclusions. If no one had ever heard of circumcision, no one would be making the wild claims that you reiterate here.

    You also state that people will be doing kitchen table circumcisions. I have heard of this happening unfortunately, and it was rightly prosecuted. Doctors are the only penis butchers who can do this "back door" procedure legally. "Back door" because circ came in the back door when doctors usurped the role of the high priesthood of the previous regime. Circumcision predates the age of science by how many thousands of years? Circumcision is a scam procedure that no modern medical association recommends. Begging the question, when will it come off the menu?
     
    #17 B_dxjnorto, Jan 2, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2009
  18. Uncutsouthernboy

    Uncutsouthernboy Well-Known Member

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    If you go to the WHO site and look at the map of HIV/AIDS distribution, in Africa there are Muslim countries that have some of the highest rates in the world. The US is a circumcising country with a relatively high rate. Mexico is a noncircumcising country with a lower rate. Canada has a lower rate of circumcision than the US AND a lower rate of HIV. The Middle East has a very low rate of HIV. Of course, the ME circumcises. BUT, there are lower rates in Japan, China, Scandanavia and other places that do NOT circumcise. So, if circumcision makes the difference in HIV transmission then why does the map not correlate?

    It is like when circumcision was pushed because Jews have a low rate of penile cancer. The Danish do not circumcise but have a lower penile cancer rate than the Jews. Penile cancer is a rare thing anyways.

    I don't understand the reasoning to circumcise for religion. Why would a god require mutilation of his own creation?
    I do understand the reasoning for medical circumcision when it is required. It is almost never required before adulthood. Let the boy decide for himself.
     
  19. thadjock

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    well as usual ALL the circ anti circ arguments are BS because they ALL depend on accepting the assumption that my foreskin is a USELESS PURPOSELESS VESTIGAL PIECE of skin that is unnecessary. WRONG it is a fully functioning part of my COCK!!!!! and every boy is born with a foreskin. in fact EVERY male MAMMAL on this planet HAS A FORESKIN ! it's only man and his perverse arrogant need to "improve" on what god made who thinks it's a great idea to chop it off. Or a religion that want's to hold its congregation in bondage. guys who were cut at birth have no choice to believe cut is better, i feel sorry for them, i'm grateful my parents were smarter, and let me be whole. promiscuity spreads disease NOT FORESKIN!
     
  20. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    Sounds just as confused and stupid as the U.S. approach to male genital cutting:
    _______________________________________

    For Kurdish Girls, a Painful Ancient Ritual
    The Widespread Practice of Female Circumcision in Iraq's North Highlights The Plight of Women in a Region Often Seen as More Socially Progressive

    By Amit R. Paley
    Washington Post Foreign Service
    Monday, December 29, 2008; A09

    TUZ KHURMATU, Iraq

    Sheelan Anwar Omer, a shy 7-year-old Kurdish girl, bounded into her neighbor's house with an ear-to-ear smile, looking for the party her mother had promised.

    There was no celebration. Instead, a local woman quickly locked a rusty red door behind Sheelan, who looked bewildered when her mother ordered the girl to remove her underpants. Sheelan began to whimper, then tremble, while the women pushed apart her legs and a midwife raised a stainless-steel razor blade in the air. "I do this in the name of Allah!" she intoned.

    As the midwife sliced off part of Sheelan's genitals, the girl let out a high-pitched wail heard throughout the neighborhood. As she carried the sobbing child back home, Sheelan's mother smiled with pride.

    "This is the practice of the Kurdish people for as long as anyone can remember," said the mother, Aisha Hameed, 30, a housewife in this ethnically mixed town about 100 miles north of Baghdad. "We don't know why we do it, but we will never stop because Islam and our elders require it."

    Kurdistan is the only known part of Iraq --and one of the few places in the world--where female circumcision is widespread. More than 60 percent of women in Kurdish areas of northern Iraq have been circumcised, according to a study conducted this year. In at least one Kurdish territory, 95 percent of women have undergone the practice, which human rights groups call female genital mutilation.

    The practice, and the Kurdish parliament's refusal to outlaw it, highlight the plight of women in a region with a reputation for having a more progressive society than the rest of Iraq. Advocates for women point to the increasing frequency of honor killings against women and female self-immolations in Kurdistan this year as further evidence that women in the area still face significant obstacles, despite efforts to raise public awareness of circumcision and violence against women.

    "When the Kurdish people were fighting for our independence, women participated as full members in the underground resistance," said Pakshan Zangana, who heads the women's committee in the Kurdish parliament. "But now that we have won our freedom, the position of women has been pushed backwards and crimes against us are minimized."

    Zangana has been lobbying for a law in Kurdistan, a semiautonomous region with its own government, that would impose jail terms of up to 10 years on those who carry out or facilitate female circumcision. But the legislation has been stalled in parliament for nearly a year, because of what women's advocates believe is reluctance by senior Kurdish leaders to draw international public attention to the little-noticed tradition.

    The Kurdish region's minister of human rights, Yousif Mohammad Aziz, said he didn't think the issue required action by parliament. "Not every small problem in the community has to have a law dealing with it," he said.

    The practice of female circumcision is extremely rare in the Arab parts of Iraq, according to women's groups. They say it is not clear why the practice -- common in some parts of Africa and the Middle East -- became popular with Iraqi Kurds but not Iraqi Arabs.

    Supporters of female circumcision said the practice, which has been a ritual in their culture for countless generations, is rooted in sayings they attribute to the prophet Muhammad, though the accuracy of those sayings is disputed by other Muslim scholars. The circumcision is performed by women on women, and men are usually not involved in the procedure. In the case of Sheelan, her mother informed her father that she was going to have the circumcision performed, but otherwise, he played no role.

    Kurds who support circumcising girls say the practice has two goals: It controls a woman's sexual desires, and it makes her spiritually clean so that others can eat the meals she prepares.

    "I would not eat food from the hands of someone who did not have the procedure," said Hurmet Kitab, a housewife who said she was 91 years old.

    Kitab, who lives in the village of Kalar in Kurdistan's eastern Germian area, where female circumcision is prevalent, has had the procedure done on herself and all her daughters. When asked if she would have her 10-month-old granddaughter Saya circumcised, Kitab said "Of course" and explained that the procedure is painless.

    "They just cut off a little bit," she said, flicking her finger at the top part of a key, which she then dropped on the floor.

    Women's rights groups in Kurdistan are working eagerly to change the perception that the procedure is harmless and that it is required under Islam. They go to villages in rural areas where the practice is most ingrained and tell women and religious leaders of the physical and psychological damage the circumcision can cause. Health experts say the procedure can result in adverse medical consequences for women, including infections, chronic pain and increased risks during childbirth.

    Ghamjeen Shaker, a 13-year-old from the Kurdish capital of Irbil, said she is still traumatized from the day she was circumcised. She sits with her legs clenched together and her hands clasped tightly on her lap, as if protecting herself from another operation. Indeed, Shaker says she sometimes dreams that the midwife who circumcised her is coming back to perform the procedure again.

    She was 5 when her mother sent her out to buy parsley and then locked her in the front yard of their home with six other girls. "I knew something bad was going to happen, but I didn't know exactly where they were going to cut," she recalled. "My family just kept saying, don't worry, this is a social custom we have been doing forever."

    "They pinned me to the ground, and I just cried and cried," said Shaker, who spoke barely above a whisper. "I was just so astonished. But now I realize that they want to prevent women from living their lives normally."

    Her mother, Shukria Ismaeel Jarjees, a 38-year-old housewife, said she was forced by her relatives and elderly women in the community to have her daughter circumcised. "I made a huge mistake, and now my daughter is always complaining of pain in her pelvis," Jarjees said. Her eyes began to fill with tears. "I now advise my daughters to never circumcise their children."

    Shaker hopes to become a social worker focusing on women's issues, in particular other girls traumatized by female circumcision.

    "I want to make sure the world understands they cannot silence girls like this," she said.

    Susan Faqi Rasheed, president of the Irbil branch of the Kurdistan Women's Union, said that even in the cosmopolitan capital, as many as a third of young girls are circumcised. "When the Kurds hold on to something, they hold on to it strongly," she said. "So now they hold to Islam more than the Arabs."

    One of the religious leaders who have been less vocal in demanding female circumcisions is Hama Ameen Abdul Kader Hussein, preacher at the Grand Mosque of Kalar and head of the clergymen's union in Germian. Previously, he preached that female circumcision was required. Now he says it is optional, which Hussein believes has caused the area's rate of female circumcision to drop from 100 percent to about 50 percent.

    "If there is any harm in this exercise," he said, "we should not do it."

    Despite the outreach efforts, a study of women in more than 300 Kurdish villages by WADI, a German nongovernmental group that advocates against female circumcision, found that 62 percent underwent the procedure.

    In Tuz Khurmatu, the most famous practitioner of female circumcision is Maharoub Juwad Nawchas, a 40-year-old midwife with traditional Kurdish tattoos covering her chin. She learned from her mother, who used to perform the procedure for free, though Nawchas now charges 4,000 Iraqi dinars, or just under $3.50, because her husband is disabled and can't work. She has circumcised about 30 girls a year for the past two decades.

    On the day she circumcised Sheelan, the midwife began the ritual by laying down an empty white potato sack to serve as her working area. AK-47 assault rifles hung from the wall of the dingy concrete house, and watermelons rested below.

    When Sheelan entered the room, her mother, Nawchas and a local woman placed the girl on a tiny wooden stool the size of a brick. The midwife applied yellow antiseptic to her pelvic area and injected her with lignocaine, an anesthetic. Little children peeked through the window to see what the noise was about.

    "It's all right, it's all right," Sheelan's mother whispered, as the girl screamed so loudly her face turned red. She tried to bunch up her skirt over her pelvis and shield the area with her hand, but the women jerked her arms back.

    Then Nawchas uttered the prayer, made a swift cut, and immediately moved the girl over a pile of ashes to control the bleeding.

    The entire ritual took less then 10 minutes.

    Back home, Sheelan lay on the floor, unable to move or talk much. She clutched a bag filled with orange soda and candy and barely said anything except that she was in pain.

    But she became more animated when asked whether it was worth it to have the operation so her friends and neighbors would be comfortable eating food she prepared. "I would do anything not to have this pain, even if meant they would not eat from my hands," she rasped slowly.

    "I just wish that I could be the way I was before the procedure," she said.
     
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