Circumcision...The Science

Discussion in 'The Healthy Penis' started by Titsdude21, Oct 8, 2011.

  1. Titsdude21

    Titsdude21 Member

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    Ok well this is a very controversial topic, with a great number of view points, and backgrounds that have shaped those view points.

    But the things that the debate comes back to are these.
    1. Are the benifits of circumcision?
    2. Are there negitives of circumcision? and..
    3. Is infant circumcision a human rights breach?

    I have my own opinions that have been formed by reading peer review published medical journals. And this is what i have found.

    Ans 1. Yes there are benifits to circumcision, such as slightly decreased risk of some medical conditions, and a decrease in the transfer of HIV (but on that issue maybe a condom is better suited to the task).

    Ans 2. Yes there are some significant negitives of circumcision (esp infant circumcision). While the results are mixed with their findings, i have not found a single journal that shows quantitive evidence for a sexual improvement after circumcision. I have found a large number that support that there is a significant decrease in the sexual pleasure after circumcision.

    Ans 3. Circumcision is not recomended for medical reasons by the AAP or other large medical bodies, and therefore should not be considered a medical procedure. Based on this it should be considered a consmetic surgery and with that in mind cosmetic surgery on babys is not ok by any stnadard.


    IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!
    If you wish to contribute you opinion to this post please give links to AT LEAST one medical journal (yes peer reviewed and published). They can be found on google scholar.
    I am sick of hearing all the bullshit that has no scientific backing and is just some random persons opinion that they have made a website for.
    PLEASE give a reference for any claims made.
    Thanks guys and girls.

    My Links
    Male circumcision: assessment of health benefits and risks. -- Moses et al. 74 (5): 368 -- Sexually Transmitted Infections
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1733522/pdf/v028p00010.pdf
    Male Circumcision and Sexual Enjoyment of the Female Partner. />
    Circumcision in adults: effect on sexual function.
     
  2. Titsdude21

    Titsdude21 Member

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    Hopefully this thread will not turn into another one of the midless debates, but can actually be discussed in a reasonable scientific manner.

    Worth a try right? maybe we can all actually learn something from this.
     
  3. D_Fred Flintstones

    D_Fred Flintstones New Member

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    the benifits are that you are highly protected against std and sti coz there is hardly anywere for it to gather, you are always clean and fresh, girls love it

    i dnt have any negatives

    i dont think there is anything wrong with it because it feels the same and you can last longer in bed

    i am circumsised
     
  4. jjsjr

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    (here we go again)
     
  5. Titsdude21

    Titsdude21 Member

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    Yup guess so, first comment and we already are off the idea of having some sort of science to back up what you say...

    Sigh.........
     
  6. BoyCordoba

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    Some people just don't get the idea... I'm not commenting on the issue or giving my opinion right now because of lack of time to look for references and sources. I would too be glad to read a thread that is more about scientific facts than opinions as simple and dumb as "uncut dicks smell". Cheers!
     
  7. SirConcis

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    There needs to be some proper background to this. What it really means is that the medical organisations do not promote infant circumcision.

    The benefits of mass circumcision do not outweight he costs of it. So they do not promote it as a national health policy.

    This, in no way, means that they recommend against circumcision.

    Their stance is that it is up to parents to choose.

    In other words, the mediacal organisations are not getting involved in the anti-circ propaganda. They are staying neutral on the issue.

    Circumcision may be mostly cosmetic in nature, but it does have medical benefits. Facial or breast cosmetic surgery have no such medical benefits. So circumcision is more than just cosmetic.

    However, in the USA, it would be true that it is mostly cosmetic/social in primary nature, with medical reasons added as a side dish to help justify the social reason.
     
  8. Titsdude21

    Titsdude21 Member

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    That is your opinion, one which is not shared by the reference that i listed.

    If you have some real info to back up anything that you have just said i would love to see it.

    P.S. Brest surgery has medical benifits. By removing breast tissue there is a lower chance (about 90% in high risk cases) of getting breast cancer (which 1 in 9 women get it) and it is unavoidable.

    So if we are doing these surgeries on the basis of medical reasons it would seem that perhaps all women need a boob job?

    References.
    Bilateral Prophylactic Mastectomy Reduces Breast Cancer Risk in BRCA1 and BRCA2 Mutation Carriers: The PROSE Study Group
    Statistics


    K thanx.
     
  9. Titsdude21

    Titsdude21 Member

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    So you last longer in bed? meaning that u get less pleasure from sex due to lost of sensation in the head of your penis?....gee from where i am that sure does sound like a negitive...

    And you do know that an std and sti are the same thing right? just checking cause you still have a high risk....you dont get an sti from it "gathering" you get it from an exchange of body fluid. Which yes is more likely in uncut guys due to small tears that can occur. However rather than a surgery, i would suggest a condom?

    But this actually kinda sounds like darwins survival of the fittest in action....so go on thinking you are immune to sti's it will likely improve the human gene pool.
     
  10. Mr.Stout

    Mr.Stout Member

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  11. Charles Finn

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    really BS
     
  12. Charles Finn

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    the real reason for RIC is that it is harder to talk him into it as an adult.
    we do not cut off anything else just because we can
     
  13. D_Miranda_Wrights

    D_Miranda_Wrights Account Disabled

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    That argument is basically a retread of evidence we've had for a while. It's not particularly even-handed either: Look how they cite one study for a given issue, as opposed to an analysis of all studies on that topic. It looks like they chose studies most friendly to their cause, which is how commentaries in med journals work (unfortunately), but not really how reality works. They also don't consider the opportunity costs (like, whether our health resources can be better-spent than on RIC -- they can.)

    They also don't actually quantify the cost-benefit analysis. For instance, they point out that quite a few people in the U.S. have HIV/AIDS. True. They then segue to a study from Africa. Except they don't bother to analyze why that 1 million is important, including how it matters that most U.S. cases of HIV come from male-on-male sex (not covered by these studies) and IV drug use. They consider the higher complication rates of adult circumcision, while ignoring the fact that RIC vastly increases the number of circumcisions period. That obviously jacks up the complication rate significantly. I could point out more systemic flaws with their process here, but you get the idea.

    Their considerations of ethical issues are also pretty lame. They dismiss child autonomy as a concern because vaccinations exist, as if vaccinations were proof that child autonomy is a non-consideration. They then talk about First Amendment religious protections as potentially being violated. But a Supreme Court case, Prince v. Massachusetts, concluded:

    The state’s interest in protecting children through [the law] overrides the parent’s constitutional right to raise her children and the children’s constitutional right to practice religion as they choose.​

    So, basically, to them vaccination means we can ignore ethical arguments about children's autonomy. And yet, they hardly recognize that a Supreme Court case explicitly says "children's interest > First Amendment exercise of religious freedom by parents upon those children." Why? I guess because ethics are inconvenient to their argument, and the ambiguities of the First Amendment aren't. As far as I can tell, disingenuity is the only explanation.

    This commentary is the medical analogue of partisan political pundits: It presents facts only that are convenient to its conclusion, and you can't even tell whether the author cares about the even-handed truth -- because he's not going to let you see it.
     
    #13 D_Miranda_Wrights, Oct 9, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  14. JonathanQ

    JonathanQ Member

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    If you can convince parents of the medical benefits of circumcision, then you can claim that Medicaid should pay for it. Who benefits in the end? The medical community who pockets the money, and lots of it.
     
  15. Titsdude21

    Titsdude21 Member

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    I agree there were some interesting points made in that journal, and they made some valid scientific conclusions.

    i dont personally agree that the higher HIV infection rate in blake males can be linked to them being uncircumcised, but perhaps due to lower demographic and increase drug use in addition to other factors, such as higher HIV in black women again due to lower demographic and possible prostitution? (this is a possible guess and is not in anyway fact nor have a looked into the evidence for this).

    However assuming the science is correct, and there half chance of getting HIV, is that a reason to promote circumcision? Or maybe we should promote condom use?

    i feel like condoms are more useful in this task....
     
  16. Mr.Stout

    Mr.Stout Member

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    I just thought this would be a good place to start since that was what you had asked and no one had thus far offered anything.
     
  17. SirConcis

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    Titsdude, condoms are more effective than circumcision when worn.

    But when a religion such a the catholic one still won't accept the use of condoms, then this is a problem. The USA, between 2000 and 2008 would not fund charities that promoted use of condoms in Africa because the USA wanted to promote abstinence.

    So if males in Africa have a significant number of sexual adventures without condoms, then having protection such as circumcision which helps even in unplanned impulse driven promiscuous sex ends up providing better protection.

    If the population could be educated to ALWAYS wear condoms, and if females in Africa had the power to say "NO" unless the guy wears a condom (which they don't), then circumcision programmes would not prove to be as effective as education on condom use.

    The reality is that there is a lot of impulse promiscuous sex, and females in africa are still treated as objects and cannot say NO to a male. You can't apply western standards and social values to Africa. You have to be pragmatic about it and use multiple solutions to try to reduce/control the spread. And circumcision has been proven to be an effective method to reduce the spread of aids.
     
  18. dude_007

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    And just where are you getting your data that black males have higher rates of drug use?
     
  19. dude_007

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    And just where are you getting your data that black males have higher rates of drug use?
    A gaffe like that begs the question.
     
    #19 dude_007, Oct 11, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2011
  20. dirkjesje

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    That's a myth. It isn't an effective method.
    The only effective way is having no sex at all. And monogamous relations are an alternative. But that's not realistic.
    So promoting to use condoms, and giving them free ( like in South-Africa ) is the only way to stop the increase of Aids and other sexual diseases in this part of the world. The problem is that more than 25% is underfeed, not healthy.
    It's proven that the immune system doesn t work so well if you're sick and already have other diseases, circumcision or not.

    The population of Africa must be informed about the dangers of unsafe sex with several partners. And some myth must be busted; like having sex with a virgin child can cure aids...
     
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