Circumcision...The Science

D_Miranda_Wrights

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And just where are you getting your data that black males have higher rates of drug use?
A gaffe like that begs the question.

He's right that higher rates of injection drug use are potentially an issue. It's also suggested that cultural attitudes about homosexuality prompt more gay black men to have reckless sex while they're closeted. In any case, asking HIV patients about drug use and sexual history suggests these (men who have sex with men; IV drugs) are major causes of HIV disproportionately affecting blacks.

Some accounts have black males using illicit drugs at comparable rates to whites; others have them using at higher rates. Studies of HIV-infected people indicate that blacks account for about 52% of HIV cases among injection drug users (cite.) Whatever the case is, we know blacks are overrepresented among HIV cases, and they're overrepresented among injection drug users who test HIV-positive. This could also mean that they lie about having sex with other men. In any case, more blacks get HIV infections from injection drug use than whites, which obviously suggests disproportionate exposure from injection drug use versus whites. Does that mean they use injection drugs more often? Almost certainly, but technically not knowable from that stat.

(Just fyi, "begs the question" actually means "assumes a conclusion is true in the question given," not "means the question is important.")
 

Titsdude21

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And just where are you getting your data that black males have higher rates of drug use?
A gaffe like that begs the question.

Maybe you stuggle with the deading part of this....read my post again and you might notice I SAID that i had no evidence and it was simply an idea i had while reading.

Additionally the fact of if there was higher drug use is not in question, simply the fact that other factors should be taken into account, such as demographic, drug use etc when comparing between two populations. And that a statement suchs as "blacks have higher rates of HIV cause they arent circumcised" is retarded, as there are way to many factors that have not been tested or considered.
 

Titsdude21

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I just thought this would be a good place to start since that was what you had asked and no one had thus far offered anything.

I am sorry if my respone seemed like i was giving you a hard time, it was not my intent.

I do agree with the artical and the other comments that there may be some advantages to circumcision, such as reduced risk of HIV. However i do not agree that circumcision is a reasonable method to deal with this.

For example....removing breast tissue has been shown to significantly reduce the risk of breast cancer in high risk women....so should we remove all breast tissue in all women? or further still remove breast tissue in girls too young to decide if that is what they want?

Is it really that different? breast tissue removal is really in the girls best interest right? (N.B. I DO NOT agree with this statement, it was simply made to illustrate a point).

Bilateral Prophylactic Mastectomy Reduces Breast Cancer Risk in BRCA1 and BRCA2 Mutation Carriers: The PROSE Study Group
 

Titsdude21

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That's a myth. It isn't an effective method.
The only effective way is having no sex at all. And monogamous relations are an alternative. But that's not realistic.
So promoting to use condoms, and giving them free ( like in South-Africa ) is the only way to stop the increase of Aids and other sexual diseases in this part of the world. The problem is that more than 25% is underfeed, not healthy.
It's proven that the immune system doesn t work so well if you're sick and already have other diseases, circumcision or not.

The population of Africa must be informed about the dangers of unsafe sex with several partners. And some myth must be busted; like having sex with a virgin child can cure aids...

Some studies have shown that circumcision can reduce the risk of HIV, I just dont see how this can be a reason for circumcision. Even if it is as effective as suggested.

Also i will be honest, i think africa for the most part has larger issues that HIV, such as civil war, food shortage, etc....maybe spend money on these things first and then look at doing a few circumcisions?
 

D_Fred Flintstones

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So you last longer in bed? meaning that u get less pleasure from sex due to lost of sensation in the head of your penis?....gee from where i am that sure does sound like a negitive...

And you do know that an std and sti are the same thing right? just checking cause you still have a high risk....you dont get an sti from it "gathering" you get it from an exchange of body fluid. Which yes is more likely in uncut guys due to small tears that can occur. However rather than a surgery, i would suggest a condom?

But this actually kinda sounds like darwins survival of the fittest in action....so go on thinking you are immune to sti's it will likely improve the human gene pool.

I no what they are, STDs are sexually transmitted deseases and are no where near the same as STIs sexually transmited infections, a desease and an infection are not the same thing, and yes you are the risk is much higher to get any sort of problem with a forskin coz it's harder to keep clean you retard
 

JonathanQ

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The risk with a foreskin is simply that it will give you and your partner a ton of pleasure you might not get otherwise. A foreskin is very easy to keep clean and most foreskin owners never have a problem. A lot of guys on this site seems to be quite insecure about their circumcisions and so react by saying a lot of crazy stuff. Amusing, but a little sad.
 

mandoman

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This is one of my personal favorites. I wrote Johns Hopkins to tell them how pseudo-scientific the points were. I also used it to show how out of control some researchers are.
When you want to think about how full of shit this one is, consider that we had the largest field trial of circumcision ever, in the US, in the 1980s. Did the disease rates go down?
Did it protect against HIV? HPV? Penile cancer?

Prevalence of male circumcision and its association with HIV and sexually transmitted infections in a U.S. navy population.

Published Ahead-of-Print : Sexually Transmitted Diseases

Conversely, circumcision rates have been dropping like a rock in Canada, the UK, New Zealand, and Australia...along with the US. Has there been a corresponding spike in infections of anything? Nope.

In the US, they wonder how it could happen, that circumcised boys are requiring additional surgery.

Medical News: AAP: Need to Re-Do Circumcision Rises, Reasons Unclear - in Meeting Coverage, AAP from MedPage Today

Here's some real science for ya...A+ in vivid verb usage, F- in ethics.
Kenya is furthest along, with about 330,000 circumcisions, a third of the government’s goal, which exceeds the international health agencies’ goal. “We’re hacking away at it every month,” Dr. Bailey said. “Those foreskins are flying.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/27/health/27circumcision.html?_r=1
 

mandoman

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This pretty much explains Tobian and Gray. And Halperin, and Robert Bailey. And why the Bill and Melinda Gates fund is so generous with circumcision money.
Elsevier

This pretty much explains the WHO's stance.
"Only about 10% to 20% of doctors use the Mogen clamp, according to Dr. David Tomlinson, who teaches family medicine at Brown University in Providence, R.I., and serves as the World Health Organization's chief expert on circumcision."

He also invented the "improved" Gomco, the "improved" Plastibell and the "improved" Accu-circ. No conflict of interest there!
Today's Hospitalist :: Night work without burnout
He's a one man penis guillotine.
 
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SirConcis

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JonathanQ: Keeping your penis clean does not magically clean the mate's vagina.

The issue here is that when you insert your penis into a vagina that has a gazillion virus/bacteria in it, will having a foreksin or circumcision make a difference in the ability of the viri/bacteria to enter your body.

The current research shows that a circumcised penis, having a thicker layer of keratin, makes it harder for viri to attach to receptor cells lower into the skin layers.

So "keeping clean" is just a convenience so that the lady won't get foul smelling cheezy fumes emanating from your penis as she retracts your foreksin after taking your dick out of underwear.
 

eurotop40

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JonathanQ: Keeping your penis clean does not magically clean the mate's vagina.

The issue here is that when you insert your penis into a vagina that has a gazillion virus/bacteria in it, will having a foreksin or circumcision make a difference in the ability of the viri/bacteria to enter your body.

The current research shows that a circumcised penis, having a thicker layer of keratin, makes it harder for viri to attach to receptor cells lower into the skin layers.

So "keeping clean" is just a convenience so that the lady won't get foul smelling cheezy fumes emanating from your penis as she retracts your foreksin after taking your dick out of underwear.

So what?
 

D_Miranda_Wrights

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JonathanQ: Keeping your penis clean does not magically clean the mate's vagina.

The issue here is that when you insert your penis into a vagina that has a gazillion virus/bacteria in it, will having a foreksin or circumcision make a difference in the ability of the viri/bacteria to enter your body.

The current research shows that a circumcised penis, having a thicker layer of keratin, makes it harder for viri to attach to receptor cells lower into the skin layers.

I don't know what research claims that STI prevention relates to keratinization. Cite?

Not that you've ever given me a proper citation ever.
 

thadjock

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So "keeping clean" is just a convenience so that the lady won't get foul smelling cheezy fumes emanating from your penis as she retracts your foreksin after taking your dick out of underwear.

it's really great that they let brain damaged individuals repeatedly post bullshit like this on this site,

PS: let us know when you figure out what your gender is.
 

eurotop40

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...
The current research shows that a circumcised penis, having a thicker layer of keratin, makes it harder for viri to attach to receptor cells lower into the skin layers.
...

BTW, I highly doubt that the plural of "virus" in English is "viri", since "viri" is the plural of "vir" (man) in Latin. " Virus" in latin is neutrum, means "poison" and has no plural. So I would say "viruses".
 

matelalique

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I'm liking this thread - as a scientist, I think it is great to keep a record of scientific records, even if the subject is circumcision.

Cut guys - there is a reason that every Paediatric group won't support an argument for *or against* circumcision. The arguments are *medically* flimsy either way, which is why circumcision at birth continues based on daddy's cock.

(ignites fire for the circumcision debate), but hopes to tone it down. This is going on for the next 30 years, and there is no reason to assume the US will depart from the other former circumcising countries of the British empire. The US follows the rest of the former empire as a backward country by about 30 years in terms of cut stats.

Anyway - he is an excellent young man. Go forth and multiply young man.

M
 

mandoman

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Many people who spout the percentages, and I'm talking doctors here, not the public, forget that the largest field trial for circumcision was in the US, in the 1980s. 80% of adult males were circumcised, or more. What diseases got prevented? What infection rates dropped dramatically? None. Who was protected from HIV? No one.
Conversely, in the former British empire, they've stopped routine infant circumcision.
Have the disease rates gone up? No. Especially New Zealand, which has a tiny HIV infection rate. Now that the US is circumcising less, have the infection rates climbed?
No.
When you bring up the statistics that France keeps their foreskins, and has one tenth the infection rate, they look at you with disbelief. Denmark's numbers are even better.
People don't want to understand something, when a piece of their income depends on them not understanding it. That, and the tribal branding "like I am" thing.
 

Titsdude21

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I no what they are, STDs are sexually transmitted deseases and are no where near the same as STIs sexually transmited infections, a desease and an infection are not the same thing, and yes you are the risk is much higher to get any sort of problem with a forskin coz it's harder to keep clean you retard

HAHA man you made my day.

Google STI vs STD you might be interested in the results. Btw when you dont even know that an sti/std is the same thing i can hardly take you srsly.

And just for a side note, clean has nothing to do with an STI/STD, if you had any idea at all what you were talking about you would understand this. So next time before you call someone a retard make sure you are at least right.

Now i would go into the reasons that you have proven to the world that you are retarded but i dont want to waste my time on you. So i will let you find out for your self.



In other news....PLEASE KEEP THIS ABOUT SCIENCE!!!!!!!!

DONT POST PRO/ANIT CIRC VIEW POINTS (without science to support them)!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Snozzle

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But the things that the debate comes back to are these.
1. Are the benifits of circumcision?
2. Are there negitives of circumcision? and..
3. Is infant circumcision a human rights breach?
but
PLEASE KEEP THIS ABOUT SCIENCE!!!!!!!!

DONT POST PRO/ANIT CIRC VIEW POINTS (without science to support them)!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whether something is a human rights breach can not be decided by science. Indeed "science" wrongly applied may be an impediment. Plenty of human rights horrors have been committed in the name of "science".
 

mandoman

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You want science?
Look at the comparisons between the disease rates of European countries, where they don't circumcise, such as France and Denmark. Compare them with the mostly circumcised US.
The Europeans get one tenth the infections we Americans get.
How does that figure into all the percentage jockeying in those African studies, done by circumcised men who want to 'prove' that circumcision cuts disease infection rates?
The guy at WHO who steers them on circumcision invented the "improved" Gomco, the "improved" Plastibell and the Accu-circ. No conflict of interest there!