Circumcision

vega

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Matthew thank you for being so intelligent and right to the point. YOurs is a valuable and great opinion to add to this since you are circumcised, not angry about it but also see why it can be a bad decision.

I do not wish those that are circumcised to feel mutilated in any way. That is of course unless you are damaged by the process. I just think that everyone should consider giving their child the option and think for yourself.

And to all those that use the excuse of tradition and say that it will never change and that we should just drop it I have some english homework for you.

The Lottery.
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by Matthew@Oct 21 2005, 02:51 PM
I am circumsized and don't consider myself "mutilated." My cock works fine and does everything I want and need it to do. I am content with myself, my quality of life is reasonably good. What's bad about it has nothing to do with my lack of foreskin. I have a little bit of curiosity about what it would be like to have a foreskin, but not too much. I'll never experience it; add that to the long list of things I'll never experience in this life.

... But in all honesty, I feel the comparison between circumcision and amputation of a limb or female circumcision (meaning removal of the clitoris) is hyperbolic.

That said, if I were uncircumsized I'm sure I would also be happy with my dick and would not choose to get circumsized later in life. Similarly, if I had a male child I would probably not have him circumsized for some of the reasons that anti-circumsision folks have mentioned.
[post=353942]Quoted post[/post]​
Thank you, Matthew. The "mutilated" description is perhaps a bit hyperbolic, and is not intended to denigrate or demean you, or any other cut man out there. The point being made is that if a square inch of flesh were cut off any other part of an infant's body, most everyone would be calling it mutilation, and the parents (and most likely the doctor) would be arrested for abuse. That the practice has been done for so many thousands of years should not make it more acceptable to most people, but it does.

Our culture considers female circumcision to be heinous, but those cultures in which it is commonly practiced obviously do not.

I underlined one section of your post, simply to make the point: had it been your choice, you would not have had this body modification done - but that point is moot, since you did NOT have the choice. Did it destroy your life? No. Would you have preferred to make the decision for yourself? I think you already answered that for us.
 

Pye

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Here's a scenario:

You're 17 and your parents decide that you should be circumcised. In some of your opinions it's a perfectly acceptable decision and one that should be followed because parents have that right and it's their decision to make.

You don't find that barbaric?
 

texas30

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I definitely find that barbaric but the way the laws are written parents have control over their children's bodies until the age of majority. I would hope in that situation that either the parents become enlightened or the teen is very convincing in his argument to stay intact. You bring up a good point, PYE
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by texas30@Oct 22 2005, 01:02 AM
I definitely find that barbaric but the way the laws are written parents have control over their children's bodies until the age of majority. I would hope in that situation that either the parents become enlightened or the teen is very convincing in his argument to stay intact. You bring up a good point, PYE
[post=354086]Quoted post[/post]​
Really? Control over their childrens' bodies? How does that square with parents who have been arrested on charges of abuse for spanking a misbehaving child in public? Those parents obviously think they have a right and obligation to discipline a child, but the law apparently does not work in their favor in that instance. The part I don't understand here is that the circumcision is unprovoked by the child and is permanent; the spanking is predicated upon bad behavior by the child, and two hand-swats on the butt lasts a few minutes, then is gone. The only lasting effect of the spanking is that the child now knows the parent does not permit misbehavior in public.
 

Dr Rock

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Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Oct 21 2005, 09:26 PM
Thank you, Matthew. The "mutilated" description is perhaps a bit hyperbolic, and is not intended to denigrate or demean you, or any other cut man out there.
[post=353998]Quoted post[/post]​
this is the point everyone chooses to disregard in these discussions. it would be a lot easier to get genuine debate on the subject if some guys didn't deliberately construe an attack on the practise of circumcision as an attack on their manhood.
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by Dr Rock+Oct 22 2005, 08:00 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr Rock &#064; Oct 22 2005, 08:00 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-DC_DEEP@Oct 21 2005, 09:26 PM
Thank you, Matthew.  The "mutilated" description is perhaps a bit hyperbolic, and is not intended to denigrate or demean you, or any other cut man out there.
[post=353998]Quoted post[/post]​
this is the point everyone chooses to disregard in these discussions. it would be a lot easier to get genuine debate on the subject if some guys didn&#39;t deliberately construe an attack on the practise of circumcision as an attack on their manhood.
[post=354161]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
Well, one of the main points anyway. The other main points are, it is permanent, and done to a person who has no choice in the matter.

Here&#39;s another hornets&#39; nest: I would be willing to wager that many who support a parent&#39;s right to cut off a portion of the child&#39;s penis, because the parent has that right, are against abortion. I know the act and the end result are not the same, but the basic underlying principle of a parent&#39;s right to do whatever they want to a child does not change.
 

Pye

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The whole issue is twisted at best.

Some site religious reasons...but many are not Jewish or Muslim. Some site health concerns...but there ARE no health concerns. You can&#39;t hit your child but you can with-hold life saving medical care for religious reasons (an issue with is under scutiny).

Just leave your children intact and let them make the decision&#33;&#33;
 

Matthew

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Hi folks, just a few points of clarification.

I didn&#39;t mean to imply that I wish I was uncircumsized, because the truth is that&#39;s not a wish of mine. My point was that if my parents had not had me circumsized I would be equally happy with that, and that had I grown up with a foreskin, I would not elect later in life (teenager or young adult) to get circumsized. Maybe that&#39;s a no-brainer but I have known uncut guys who considered it (&#33;&#33;&#33;).

I also don&#39;t feel like this thread or anti-circumsision arguments in general are attacking my &#39;manhood.&#39; My point in explaining that I do not feel mutilated or harmed was that the way I feel about myself diminishes my personal ability to empathize with the level of emotion, anger, horror, etc, that some anti-circumsision folks express.

But once again, I believe that this thread raises important and valid points. It&#39;s clear that surgery without medical necessity always carries risk and is to be avoided in general. Furthermore, the various arguments used by circumsision advocates, as you all have ably shown, range from questionable at best to completely false.

Thanks.
 

DC_DEEP

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I thought I would get a medical doctor&#39;s take on this - out of the clinical setting, where she could voice her observations without fear of retribution. She does not know my cut/uncut status, nor my views on the subject. She has been a family practice physician for 14 years. First, my email to her (with identifying material deleted, otherwise in its entirety):

I do have a couple of questions for you. I subscribe to a message board, and one of the ongoing debates concerns circumcision. I just thought I would ask about your personal views as a physician, and what the current thinking is in the medical community, and the AMA. Medical necessity notwithstanding, how is it usually handled? Do the parents have to request it? Do doctors offer it or advise against it? Just curious.

And her reply (again, unedited except for identifiable info):
Circumcision... you have hit one of my favorite debates&#33; I&#39;m against genital mutilation unless there is a good reason for it, and there is no good proven reason to do this. Uncirc&#39;d boys may have a slightly higher rate of urinary tract infection as infants, which is really minimal and easily treated. The general run of "amurican" families want circs because it looks like Dad&#39;s, and they don&#39;t want to have to "touch it," which in fact isn&#39;t really any more necessary than usual anyway&#33; Uncirc&#39;d infants can be washed just like any other infant with good hygiene. The foreskin should NOT be retracted until it retracts on its own, which is usually around age 5. Any normal 5-yo boy will be retracting it himself by that time&#33; However, uncirc&#39;d adults do have a higher rate of contraction of HIV WHEN EXPOSED. Using common sense could prevent a lot of this. Elderly men sometimes will develop balanitis, an inflammation of the foreskin, which requires an adult circumcision, which is a much bigger deal than an infant&#39;s (and yes, I&#39;ve had to do both). Cons: sensitivity is GREATLY reduced by exposing the sensitive glans to more irritation... thus changing mucosal skin to "regular" skin... and hiding those nerve endings&#33; One can never regain that lost sensitivity, and what man wants to lose any of that? As an intern, I was expected to do all the infant circs, and, as an intern, I complied, because of course you are scared to do anything else, but as a second-year resident I took a stand against it... and two other residents in my program sided with me, I gave talks on it (can you tell?) and the OB department even sided with me&#33;&#33; However, our standing practice (not mine, obviously) was to present the new mother with the consent form. No discussion. It was assumed everyone wanted it done, and the student or intern was expected to obtain that consent. Hopefully things are a little different now. I had one nursing student faint during a circ, and the infants are obviously traumatized. You strap &#39;em down and slice that sucker off. I participated in an anesthetic study (we had EMLA cream, no anesthetic, and an electric stimulation, and once or twice I tried nerve blocks also) and NOTHING seems to change the infant&#39;s distress. Circ&#39;d nfant males show much higher sensitivity to pain and trauma than females, and they also show higher traumatic reactions to routine immunizations. No, of course chopping off the end of their penis doesn&#39;t affect them adversely&#33; I believe there might still be a good article on the aap site, and a simple google will probably turn up a lot of stuff.
Is that what you wanted to know? :)
 

prepstudinsc

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I had to laugh about the part about the baby showing "trauma". I went to see my friends who had a baby boy a week and a half ago (and had him cut) about two hours after his circumcision. They were talking about how he slept through it. My friend and I were laughing about how glad we were that we had it done as babies because we couldn&#39;t stand the pain now. The nurse came in to check on things and heard us laughing about it and remarked that the baby did indeed sleep right through it and didn&#39;t make a peep. She said that they applied an anesthetic cream and gave him some sugar water to make him drowsy. A couple of minutes later, he was back in the room to nurse. It would have been obvious if he had been crying (or screaming&#33;) but the nurse and his parents said that he was very peaceful and was just ready to eat when he got back to the room. Maybe this baby is strange, but according to everyone he didn&#39;t seem too traumatized from his circumcision.

I certainly don&#39;t remember mine.
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by Sam1070@Oct 23 2005, 06:57 AM
Trauma??? I was cut at birth and glad I was&#33; I do not remember a thing about it&#33;
[post=354486]Quoted post[/post]​
Glad you were cut, glad it was done at birth, or both?
 

DC_DEEP

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Prepstud and Sam, I find it of interest that the only part of that post you focused on was the "trauma" part, which I think is the least of the problems in the issue. A newborn experiences lots of trauma early on - the birth process itself is traumatic (the reason a baby has a soft spot on his head is so that the skull can flatten out to get through the birth canal). The part that I found especially disturbing is that the doctors are expected to sneak in a consent form amongst a pile of other paperwork, with NO discussion, and get a mother to sign it (most likely when she is really not in any condition to be reading and understanding and signing consent forms.) A woman giving birth for the first time probably has no clue what is going on.

Even so, no supporters as yet have answered the questions I posed in my posts #39, #68, #70, and #73. Will anyone take a stab at it?
 

robertomuro

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Originally posted by prepstudinsc@Oct 23 2005, 11:56 AM
I had to laugh about the part about the baby showing "trauma". I went to see my friends who had a baby boy a week and a half ago (and had him cut) about two hours after his circumcision. They were talking about how he slept through it. My friend and I were laughing about how glad we were that we had it done as babies because we couldn&#39;t stand the pain now. The nurse came in to check on things and heard us laughing about it and remarked that the baby did indeed sleep right through it and didn&#39;t make a peep. She said that they applied an anesthetic cream and gave him some sugar water to make him drowsy. A couple of minutes later, he was back in the room to nurse. It would have been obvious if he had been crying (or screaming&#33;) but the nurse and his parents said that he was very peaceful and was just ready to eat when he got back to the room. Maybe this baby is strange, but according to everyone he didn&#39;t seem too traumatized from his circumcision.

I certainly don&#39;t remember mine.
[post=354478]Quoted post[/post]​

Interesting aspect to point out as this has not even been a major point by any anti-circ person here, although obviously it is a major concern.

Babies do "sleep" through circumcisions quite often. The sleeping of course is just a loss of conciousness from the pain. There are even reports I can point to of babies completely stopping their breathing for 20-30 seconds at a time as well as vomiting. You don&#39;t honestly believe the baby was having a nice quiet sleep while they were doing all that to him do you? Oh yes, by the way, anaesthetics (including local) are contra-indicated on infants. I have even heard of physicians using alcohol (as in, the baby drinking it) to help reduce the pain. Once again, not a recommended procedure.
 

Dr Rock

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I have no clue what kinda fucking hospitals these kids are being born in, but around here you do NOT give anesthetics - or any other kind of medication - to newborn kids unless it is literally a matter of life and death. there is no way of knowing how any given newborn will react to that kind of stuff or how severely; it&#39;s a mind-bogglingly stupid risk to take (although admittedly not as stupid as the idea of neonatal circumcision itself).
 

cityboy

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Well I for one hate being circumcised and I do feel mutilated. No one had the moral right to cut off part of my body without my knowledge and consent and for no good reason. If you&#39;re happy with it that is fine with me but I am not and I expect you to respect my opinion. I don&#39;t blame my parents, they just did what the doctor told them was best and they believed him. I do blame the doctor who should have known better and who took an oath to "do no harm". Well I feel plenty harmed by it. It is my body and it was my choice - no one elses.
 

Grit

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I am circ&#39;d... I had no say or choice. Sometime I think it would be cool to have a foreskin to cover up my dick head when it is not in use. I have never talked to anyone about this. But I think that a cut dick does look better and I suppose I will have to be happy with that.
 

Pye

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DC , to answer your questions.....I don&#39;t think that a parent should have the right to decide about any body modifications done to an infant...it also bothers me to see the parents of babies, female and male, getting their ears pierced.

Does anyone in the neonatal medical field know WHY the consent form for circumcision is just handed out with forms? I find this to go in direct violation of "do no harm".

And Prepstud? If you had known about your friends&#39; intention to circumcise their infant did any of what has been written in this post even give you any pause to inform your friends about the circ debate? Or are you dismissing this as foolishness by a bunch of angry guys?

My main concern lies with the lack of CHOICE and the general acceptance of this as a standard practice.
 

Pye

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Originally posted by Grit@Oct 23 2005, 01:22 PM
I am circ&#39;d... I had no say or choice. Sometime I think it would be cool to have a foreskin to cover up my dick head when it is not in use. I have never talked to anyone about this. But I think that a cut dick does look better and I suppose I will have to be happy with that.
[post=354552]Quoted post[/post]​


I think that look of a cut penis is also something of beauty-- but there are some uncut peni where the skin can be retracted and LOOK uncut...and they still have all of the foreskin that allows for all that extra sensory pleasure.

I am not sure what I would do if I was uncut whether I would be circed or not...I&#39;m not crazy about the way peni look with the EXTRA long foreskin...reminds me of a "clam neck"... if I were to have one of those I might have a partial circ to remove some of the skin...but I don&#39;t have the CHOICE.