Civil liberties my ass

[DC_DEEP]

I was waiting to see if anyone else would start a thread on this subject, but I can't wait any longer, so I am starting it.

I know there are many differing opinions on the Sheeehan-Young debacle during the State of the Union Address; my comments address not whether either of the women was right to wear what she did to the address, but in the difference of treatment that each received.

Ms Sheehan wore a t-shirt featuring the message: "2,242 Dead, how many more?" Mrs Young wore a shirt bearing the message "Support Our Troops". The article I read on CNN had some conflicting information. In one paragraph, it states that Ms Sheehan and Ms Young were both removed prior to the beginning of the speech, but later in the article, it describes Ms Young being "humiliated" by being removed during the president's speech. Ms Sheehan, an invited guest of Rep Lynn Woolsey, was removed, handcuffed, and arrested on charges of unlawful conduct, and jailed for at least 4 hours. Ms Young was removed, but not arrested. US Capitol Police Chief said that the removals were a mistake, based on outdated law, and that removal for wearing t-shirts was warranted if the wearer was bringing attention to the shirt message in order to create a disruption. He conceded that neither woman did so. He said that he has apologized to Rep & Ms Young. He has attempted to contact Ms Sheehan to see if "he could talk to her at her own convenience, and let her know that charges will be dropped." No mention was made as to whether that "talk" would include an apology.

According to US Capitol Police spokesperson Sgt Kimberly Schneider Ms Sheehan was asked to cover her shirt, but refused to do so. Ms Sheehan's 24-year-old son was killed by enemy action in Iraq; no mention was made regarding whether or not Ms Young has children, in or out of the military. Rep Young held up his wife's shirt during a session of the House, saying how terrible it was that his patriotic wife was kicked out of the gathering. Shame, shame. (Sounds to me like he is trying to paint Ms Sheehan as some sort of traitor for wanting to end the killing over there....)

So much for the background info. Now for the discussion. Is anyone besides me outraged that 1) Although they pretended it was "equal treatment" to remove the Representative's wife, she was not handcuffed, arrested on the same charges, and jailed? And 2) no mention has been made of officials finding out where the "mistake" occurred, that the arresting officer and the chief and the booking officer will be tried on charges of assault and false arrest? This woman who was sitting quietly was arrested for unlawful conduct. Those who illegally arrested her get by with impunity, simply by saying "oopsie."

This isn't the first time this sort of thing goes on here; during the November 2003 election, protesters (assembling peaceably per 1st Amendment) were arrested, handcuffed, and DRAGGED to jail, held for several days, before DC Police Chief Ramsey gave another of those "oopsies", and released them. No damages for these people being illegally detained from their families and jobs, no action, no consequences. Sorry this post is so long, but it is just something that I think needs to be addressed, but seems to continually be swept under the rug.

 

[B_big dirigible]

This woman who was sitting quietly was arrested for unlawful conduct.

How do you know that she was "sitting quietly"?

 

[DC_DEEP]

How do you know that she was "sitting quietly"?

go read the articles for yourself. why does everyone want me to do their reading and research for them? the the police chief said she was not drawing attention to herself. for the purpose of the article, when I said sitting quietly, I DID NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT SHE WAS SITTING ISOLATED IN A CHAIR WITH HER HANDS FOLDED IN HER LAP, NOT SPEAKING TO ANYONE. I SIMPLY MEANT THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF THE REASON SHE WAS ARRESTED, SHE WAS NOT ENGAGED IN THE BEHAVIOR THAT THE POLICE CHIEF ADMITTED WAS THE BASIS OF HER REMOVAL AND ARREST. SHE WAS NOT MAKING A SCENE. SHE WAS NOT ENGAGED IN ANY ACTIVITIES THAT CALLED ATTENTION TO HERSELF OR HER CLOTHING. SHE WAS REMOVED AND HANDCUFFED AND ARRESTED AND JAILED SIMPLY BASED ON THE MESSAGE ON THE FRONT OF HER SHIRT. WHILE THEY CLAIMED THAT THEY WERE "14TH AMENDMENTING" MS YOUNG, SHE WAS NEITHER HANDCUFFED NOR ARRESTED NOR CHARGED WITH UNLAWFUL CONDUCT ; BUT HER ACTIONS WERE NOT DISSIMILAR FROM MS SHEEHAN'S. WHY IS THAT DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND?

 

[Shelby]

As I understood it Young cooperated with the authorities, Sheehan did not.

 

[Lex]

People should be outraged that either woman was asked to leave in the first place. They wore t-shirts that not everyone agreed with. What's so wrong with that?

The question is: Does our government's interest in projecting a certain image and controlling a broadcast allow them to restrict the freedom of speech and expression of others?

My understanding of studying freedom of speech as a former school adminsitrator, you can only limit freedom of speech and expression if it infringes upon the rights of others or can be shown to have a "disruptive" effect or impact that endangers others.

I am not sure I see that here.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

1) Although they pretended it was "equal treatment" to remove the Representative's wife, she was not handcuffed, arrested on the same charges, and jailed?

Some women, the ones married to influential lawmakers, are just more equal than others.

 

[Rikter8]

Just more proof that BUSH IS A TERRORIST RIGHT HERE AT HOME.

EVEN if she wasn't sitting quietly, she has EVERY RIGHT to be there.

The american public is so fucking passive that they dont have enough balls to stand up for whats right.

Im sick of these so called "Good Law Abiding republicans" getting away with murder. Theyre fucking crooks, and its so pathetic every day I hear "Oh it's not Bush's fault, its somebody elses"

They need to impeach that bastard and all of his cronies before they totally destroy this country and everything in it.

I've got balls enough to stand up for my rights. Its a shame that other americans dont.

 

[Dr Rock]

The question is: Does our government's interest in projecting a certain image and controlling a broadcast allow them to restrict the freedom of speech and expression of others?

well, duh

 

[madame_zora]

well, duh

"To knowingly remove a truthful statement is just wrong," he added. "It's not the place of any special-interest group to tamper with the facts available to the public."


I'm completely confused. I thought that was the PURPOSE of special interest groups.

 

[KinkGuy]

...you can only limit freedom of speech and expression if it infringes upon the rights of others or can be shown to have a "disruptive" effect or impact that endangers others.
I am not sure I see that here.

You would if you were the President of the United States and were afraid of T-Shirts.

The "head goober" has been in town today and will be tomorrow. What a f'n mess. New Mexico must be just a little too blue these days.

 

[panthera]

Isn't it a little bit frightening that "the land of the free and the home of the brave" has come to mean "freedom is only for fundamentalist christians and conservative wealthy people?"
Every one who voted this administration into office should be required to sit down and read the preamble to the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and Bill of Rights of the United States of America and the texts of the first and fourth Geneva Conventions...

 

[KinkGuy]

And what "quaint" documents they are.

 

[panthera]

go read the articles for yourself. why does everyone want me to do their reading and research for them? the the police chief said she was not drawing attention to herself. for the purpose of the article, when I said sitting quietly, I DID NOT NECESSARILY ...

Honey, I am on your side - but please remember that not everyone is as well versed as you are.
Certainly the actions of the police were wrong. This wasn't the first time and it will not be the last time.
On the other hand, some good has come of this. Many folks know about it now.
If the republicans and christians were smart (they aren't), they would have just ignored Ms. Sheehan.
My heart goes out to her, I hope she continues to fight the good fight.
Oh, of base here, but what the hey - has anybody considered the dire consequences if Bush 43 were impeached and convicted? There is a big difference between foolish and weak and very intelligent and evil...

 

[AlteredEgo]

said in part...

The american public is so fucking passive that they dont have enough balls to stand up for whats right.

and...

I've got balls enough to stand up for my rights. Its a shame that other americans dont.

What are you doing, and what do you think other Americans should do?

 

[KinkGuy]

What are you doing, and what do you think other Americans should do?

Well, at one time...way back in the olden days...the citizens of this country had the ability and the power to end a war and bring down a Presidency. We just don't seem to have the balls for it anymore. We deserve what we get.

 

[headbang8]

The president's orchestrated acclaim reminds me of the Nürnberg Rallies

 

[dcwrestlefan]

I was waiting to see if anyone else would start a thread on this subject, but I can't wait any longer, so I am starting it.

I know there are many differing opinions on the Sheeehan-Young debacle during the State of the Union Address; my comments address not whether either of the women was right to wear what she did to the address, but in the difference of treatment that each received.

Ms Sheehan wore a t-shirt featuring the message: "2,242 Dead, how many more?" Mrs Young wore a shirt bearing the message "Support Our Troops". The article I read on CNN had some conflicting information. In one paragraph, it states that Ms Sheehan and Ms Young were both removed prior to the beginning of the speech, but later in the article, it describes Ms Young being "humiliated" by being removed during the president's speech. Ms Sheehan, an invited guest of Rep Lynn Woolsey, was removed, handcuffed, and arrested on charges of unlawful conduct, and jailed for at least 4 hours. Ms Young was removed, but not arrested. US Capitol Police Chief said that the removals were a mistake, based on outdated law, and that removal for wearing t-shirts was warranted if the wearer was bringing attention to the shirt message in order to create a disruption. He conceded that neither woman did so. He said that he has apologized to Rep & Ms Young. He has attempted to contact Ms Sheehan to see if "he could talk to her at her own convenience, and let her know that charges will be dropped." No mention was made as to whether that "talk" would include an apology.

According to US Capitol Police spokesperson Sgt Kimberly Schneider Ms Sheehan was asked to cover her shirt, but refused to do so. Ms Sheehan's 24-year-old son was killed by enemy action in Iraq; no mention was made regarding whether or not Ms Young has children, in or out of the military. Rep Young held up his wife's shirt during a session of the House, saying how terrible it was that his patriotic wife was kicked out of the gathering. Shame, shame. (Sounds to me like he is trying to paint Ms Sheehan as some sort of traitor for wanting to end the killing over there....)

So much for the background info. Now for the discussion. Is anyone besides me outraged that 1) Although they pretended it was "equal treatment" to remove the Representative's wife, she was not handcuffed, arrested on the same charges, and jailed? And 2) no mention has been made of officials finding out where the "mistake" occurred, that the arresting officer and the chief and the booking officer will be tried on charges of assault and false arrest? This woman who was sitting quietly was arrested for unlawful conduct. Those who illegally arrested her get by with impunity, simply by saying "oopsie."

This isn't the first time this sort of thing goes on here; during the November 2003 election, protesters (assembling peaceably per 1st Amendment) were arrested, handcuffed, and DRAGGED to jail, held for several days, before DC Police Chief Ramsey gave another of those "oopsies", and released them. No damages for these people being illegally detained from their families and jobs, no action, no consequences. Sorry this post is so long, but it is just something that I think needs to be addressed, but seems to continually be swept under the rug.

if your ass has civil liberties, its one of the few things left that does. welcome to the soviet union, part deux.

as much as i hate president select douche, you know what bugs me more? the american people. they are still largely clueless as to what is going on. 11000 votes thrown in the trash in florida in 2000. has anything been done to reform that so all votes count? people being held in jail without charges. protesters being arrested just cuz. when shrub uses the words "democracy" and "free", it makes me want to vomit. mark my words tho, republicans will still win in '06, despite bush's approval ratings.

this city is the most dysfunctional on the planet. marion barry is still around. slimy mf. the other people serving locally now are not much better. and the village idiot from texas is in charge of the entire nation.

the south and midwest should form their own country. then we go back in 20 years and see the mess that is left. they will forever vote along the "i love my gun, hate gays, want abortion outlawed in all cases, love god, and want forced prayer in school". as long as they are in the voting mix, no matter who is running or how many soldiers die in iraq or what unconstitutional rules they have to follow, they are voting "right", and the rest of us have to live with it. fuck that.

 

[DC_DEEP]

For those of you who understood that my original post was not necessarily about Sheehan or Young, thank you. I was making a broad statement about 14th Amendment and accountability. Sheehan was obviously falsely arrested. Will there be any repercussions for those responsible, for those who had her removed and arrested knowing full well that they were later going to claim "a mistake was made" and that all charges would be dropped? No, of course we all know that it's all going to be swept under the rug. Will any charges be filed against them since, under supposedly identical reasoning, one was thrown in jail and one was simply removed from the chamber? No, of course we all know that will never happen.

This is not the first (or second, or third, or fiftieth) time that either US Capitol Police or DC Metropolitan Police have used these tactics to get rid of a thorn in their side - but nothing happens.

 

[B_big dirigible]

If the republicans and christians were smart (they aren't), they would have just ignored Ms. Sheehan.

So the police (those who performed said arrests) are known to be Republican and/or Christian and/or dumb?

You guys are making up a lot of "news" here. Leave that to the pros at the Times, they've been at it a lot longer.

 

[DC_DEEP]

So the police (those who performed said arrests) are known to be Republican and/or Christian and/or dumb?

You guys are making up a lot of "news" here. Leave that to the pros at the Times, they've been at it a lot longer.

I'm not making up any news. And I never said that the arresting police are republicans or christians or whatever... just that they knew when they made the arrest that they were not acting legally. And keep in mind, it was most likely someone in the current administration's cabinet who gave the initial order to remove Sheehan from the chamber. Yes, he is dumb... he should have just said "Sir, she has not violated any law, so I have no authority to arrest her." How difficult is that to understand? And when you say "the pros at the Times," you almost certainly mean The Washington Times, and not The New York Times, right?