Civil Right or Civil Wrong?

Discussion in 'Relationships, Discrimination, and Jealousy' started by Iluvmywife333, Nov 13, 2008.

  1. Iluvmywife333

    Iluvmywife333 New Member

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    Before you read: MY FIRST POST WAS NOT WRITTEN IN THE BEST MANNER. I REALLY JUST WANTED SOME FEEDBACK ABOUT A RECENT CONCERN I HAD REGARDING THE TOPIC OF GAYS. IT WAS A TAD HARSH AND I APOLOGIZE. AS YOU GO DOWN THE POSTS YOU CAN SEE A CHANGE IN ATTITUDE. HOWEVER, I WANT TO LEAVE THE ORIGINAL TEXT SO THAT IT STAYS CONSISTANT WITH THE TOPIC THUS FAR.

    The Original Post:
    First of all, I hope I don't offend anyone by stating my argument. I have nothing against gay people...but I don't like the act of gay sex. I'm one of those people who feels that it's like smoking. A bad habit, but it doesn't make you evil.

    Before you start bashing me though, take this into consideration. There are people who claim to only be attracted to animals or children. They swear they can't control themselves or they were "born that way". They call these people sick and encourage them away from it, yet gays are not only encouraged now, but they treat sexual preference as a civil right. What's next...I'm a bondage slave and proud...I screw food, so give me my own movie! I know there's a never ending flipside to this thing, but I'm tired of being called antisemitic for insisting that sexual preference shouldn't be who you are...just what you do.

    If you choose to disagree with me, please do. But give me that same freedom and stop calling people against gay sex, "prejudice" and "homophobic".
     
    #1 Iluvmywife333, Nov 13, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2008
  2. mindseye

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    I like black people but I don't want them drinking out of my water fountain. Stop calling people like me racist!

    Comparing sex between consenting adults to the sexual exploitation of a minor is homophobic. If you want people to stop calling you a bigot, stop being a bigot.
     
  3. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    oh brother.

    I was gonna reply, but why bother? This website is really past the point of debating whether homosexuality is a valid lifestyle.

    Dude. You have the problem. Gays (& straights experimenting with their sexuality) are not the problem. They're fine. YOU have the issue. Why are you comparing gays to pedophilia and bestiality? It's tired.

    Seek therapy man.
     
  4. midlifebear

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    Dear Mindseye: Good post, but I fear Iluvmywife333 is either lost or a recruit from the "let's annoy and piss off everyone" contingency. You know who they are.
     
  5. Iluvmywife333

    Iluvmywife333 New Member

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    sigh...i shoulda saw this coming...well, i guess it would make a difference if the guy started peeing in the water fountain too. My argument was not meant as an attack on your persons or anyones. In fact, I think its great that people can be gay openly without discrimination. I merely stated that I thought the act was unhealthy and shouldn't be treated like a civil rights issue. It's a viewpoint, not an attack.

    I am sorry if i made it seem that way...looking back it does look like I'm waving a finger. Sorry.
     
  6. Iluvmywife333

    Iluvmywife333 New Member

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    Look nevermind I said anything....I wrote this because today at work I got called a prejudice jerk because I told one of my students today that it was okay to feel upset that his dad left his mom for another guy. I was consoling the kid, when a teacher tells me i'm brainwashing the child.

    Aren't people allowed to have their own viewpoints! I don't hate gays!!!! I just have a viewpoint on the act of gay relations and I'm tired of people saying its evil!

    I needed to rant and maybe I shoudn't have done it here! I'm really sorry...end this thread...or whatever...

    I should've known better..... :frown1:
     
  7. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    You don't have to engage in, or imagine gay sex. You don't have to believe it's healthy.

    You do have to let people engage in whatever sex they wish to have with each other. Up until very recently, this was illegal in some places.

    You can't be fired, denied adoption opportunities, denied marital benefits, or denied military service because you're straight.

    Gays can be denied all of these things solely on the basis of their sexual orientation; a part of them that in no way effects their ability to perform or enjoy these rights.

    This is why it's a civil rights issue.
     
  8. surferboy

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    i stopped reading right here. you're an ignorant person brah. and the fact that your screen name is "iluvmywife" tells me that you're a closet case that needs to re-assure himself that he's straight. now, i'm gonna go back and read the rest of this topic


    EDIT: ok, i read the rest. there's just so much wrong with your view point brah, that i can't cover it all. however, there is this:

    first off, there is plenty of discrimination. i guess you've been living under a rock, because there's been amendments ratified in 3 states banning gay marriage.

    secondly, you say you think it's "Great that people can be gay openly without discrimination," yet you blatantly discriminate in this topic. you equate a person's sexuality to "a bad habit, like smoking a cigarette"
     
    #8 surferboy, Nov 13, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2008
  9. Iluvmywife333

    Iluvmywife333 New Member

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    Hmmm...I never thought of that. That was very well said...However, for someone like me who sees it like smoking...which, once again, not against smokers just the act of smoking. In that context, can't you see that I might be a little scared that suddenly it will be wrong to tell people you shouldn't smoke...red ribbon week is prejudice, etc...I ask not out of hate...I really do want to hear feedback like jason's. I'm not narrow minded...:redface:
     
  10. Phil Ayesho

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    then stop doing it.

    Well- your analogy is way off the mark...
    Here's why
    First...
    compelling and irrefutable evidence exists demonstrating that some level of homosexuality is a naturally occurring result of mammalian biology. It is observed all over the animal kingdom... it therefore is not necessarily aberrant behavoir...
    ...whereas there is ZERO evidence that child molestors and animal 'lovers' have any basis in biology for their fetishes.

    Second...
    animals and children can not give informed consent to sexual acts... regardless of whether people who prefer either claim they were "born that way"... Sexual relations without consent is ethically wrong and illegal.

    Homosexual adults engage sexually with other homosexual adults with mutual informed consent.
    What they do is between them and does not inpinge upon your rights to live your life as you please.

    Even IF homosexuality were an aberration, Homosexual conduct does not present any form of specific threat to the society nor freedoms of others....

    Therefore, in a free society, you have no rational argument for denying homosexuals the right to act as they please within the moral framework of informed consent.

    Third- you may find it offensive, but the Constitution does not give you any right to live un-offended.

    Fourth- The Constitution DOES state that ALL people are to be treated equally under the law and receive equal protection of the law.
    DO you or do you not support the constitution and the idea of freedom and equality?

    If you live in the USA, then you you ought to support both... and the law states that Gay people should have rights IDENTICAL to any other group of people.

    Anything less is not only ethically wrong... its unAmerican.


    I am not "calling" you that.... you are Revealing that you are prejudiced and homophobic.

    Sorry... but that is the proper terms to describe your position, since your position clearly in not based in any form of ethical reasoning.

    You only find it abhorrent because you were conditioned to feel so... you have presented no chain of reasoning to support you not liking it...

    --Thus you have pre-judged the circumstances based upon the conditioning you had since childhood... and so you ARE prejudiced.

    Your "argument' is nothing more than one of the canned conservative/religious arguments meant to promulgate the unreasonable fear that giving gays equal rights would result in giving child molesters rights... which is ridiculous and insupportable on its face.

    That is just fear mongering.

    Thus I am not calling you homophobic... your statements ARE homophobic.



    Sorry... its a backward, ignorant and small hearted perspective.

    What the hell difference should it be to you that others in your community get treated equally?
    How does that affect YOUR freedom to act as you see fit?

    It doesn't.

    I could effectively argue that forcing your government to give EVERYONE equal treatment is your duty as a citizen of this nation. I could argue that getting the government, and the people, to abide by the constitution is a good thing that wold benefit everyone in the long haul.
     
  11. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    The thing that comes to mind to me is that there is no "handbook" of how humans are supposed to behave - sexually or non-sexually.

    This means that we are all kind of on the loose and can and do make our own perceptions/opinions based on what is inside us (our infinite minds, our genetics, etc) and what is outside of us (society, family upbringings, life events, etc.).

    I am not sure what you mean by "the act is unhealthy." The act of being gay is unhealthy, or the act of anal sex is unhealthy? In the former case I disagree. Being gay only means that you love and/or have emotional bonds with someone of the same sex. I don't think that loving someone is unhealthy. As for the latter, I disagree too. Anything can be unhealthy. But in this case, why is it considered unhealthy? Heterosexual couples have anal sex and that is considered OK. Furthermore, there are medical procedures that involve putting stuff up the butt. That is considered healthy. Furthermore, not all gays are bottoms, so does that make it healthier to be gay then? If you have a problem with anal sex in itself being unhealthy, then that is a different issue that is separate from anything you do or do not have against gays.

    So with all that said, it seems to boil down to our preconceptions of what is right and wrong and with is healthy and what is unhealthy and what is sinful and what is unsinful.

    As for your event today, I don't get that either. You told a child that it was OK to be upset for his father leaving his mother for another man? I personally don't see anything wrong with that. The kid does have a right to be upset. Did you say it just like that? Or did you say that "Daddy is a sinner" or "Dad is going to have butt sex and that is dirty" or something like that?
     
  12. D_Chocho_Lippz

    D_Chocho_Lippz Account Disabled

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    Oh, and just ignore Phil, he loves to point fingers and be un-constructive.

    Phil, I don't know who you are, but you either type really fast or you have documents on all sorts of subjects that you just cut and copy from. You always write an assload, and its always scattered around the screen like mashed potatoes at a food fight. And for the most part, it is saying the same thing every single time?????
     
    #12 D_Chocho_Lippz, Nov 13, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2008
  13. Principessa

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    Attraction to animals and children is immoral and disgusting. Homosexuality is not.

    You are comparing apples and steak. One thing has nothing to do with the other.:cool:

    Anti-semitic means that you don't like Jews. Are you saying that in addition to being homophobic you don't like Jews either? :confused: Crikey! Is there anybody left of whom you approve?

    If you choose to disagree with me, please do. But give me that same freedom and stop calling people against gay sex, "prejudice" and "homophobic".[/quote]Sorry, no can do. If you are judging people based upon who they love without getting to know them as individuals, then that is prejudice. You have prejudged them. :cool: Homophobic means you don't like homosexuals...which you have clearly stated you don't. Perhaps you should keep your narrow-minded opinions to yourself. :mad:


    QFT!

    There has to be more to this story, you are leaving something out. :12:

    Aren't people allowed to have their own viewpoints! I don't hate gays!!!! I just have a viewpoint on the act of gay relations and I'm tired of people saying its evil!

    I needed to rant and maybe I shoudn't have done it here! I'm really sorry...end this thread...or whatever...I should've known better..... :frown1:[/quote]So Mr. I'm Not Gay, and gay sex repulses me. What brings you to LPSG if not to look at the big penises?
     
  14. Iluvmywife333

    Iluvmywife333 New Member

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    Lol. No I don't think I said it like that. Though maybe i should relay the scenario.

    Basically, she's a middle school student and was takin pretty hard. She said she hated gays and I told her that if it had been a woman it would have been just as upsetting. Her parents ended up divorcing because they were unhappy. They told her that she should be happy that her dad is in a good relationship now. She didn't feel happy about it and felt bad for not feeling happy for her dad. I told her that while we shouldn't hate peoples, sometimes individuals do things we don't agree with...and it's okay to feel diversely to those actions. At this point one of the other teachers in the room heard me and took her from my table to talk to her. I overheard her, since its not like she was trying to keep it quiet say that you shouldn't hate what people DO either and that Mr. XXXXX (me) was wrong. She went on for some time like this...though she did get the girl to feel better, so it wasn't for naught. Afterward, she came to me and said that we shouldn't discuss religious ideas in school (never even mentioned religion, btw) because it brainwashes kids. Well, this put me off a little and so I came home a little heated to write about it.

    Thanks Peaceful Kancer for your posts and your interest.
     
  15. Iluvmywife333

    Iluvmywife333 New Member

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    Heaven forbid straight men have big penises and want to better technique and be part of a community.
     
  16. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    Thank you for that compliment.

    By using that smoking analogy do you mean that you're not against homosexuality, just gay sex?

    Are you saying that you're scared that people will say it's OK to be gay?

    Let me diagram that sentence:

    In that context, can't you see that I might be a little scared that suddenly it will be wrong to tell people you shouldn't have straight sex... straight ribbon week is prejudice, etc...I ask not out of hate...I really do want to hear feedback like jason's.

    I really don't know any gay people who are against being straight. As gay people say, "If it weren't for straight people, I wouldn't be here!" I do know some gay people have suffered so much at the hands of some straight people that they are suspicious of many of them. They are, however, in the minority. I'm pretty masculine. Nobody ever takes me for a gay person, not even in gay venues. One Halloween party I went to had the host look at me and say, "What are you supposed to be? A straight guy?"

    The deal is like with any other. Imagine you moved into a really gay town or neighborhood. You walk down the street holding hands with your wife, maybe kiss her in public, maybe want to chat with your guy friends about one particularly hot night you had, maybe she wants to chat-up her friends about some new thing you did that sent her to the moon. Maybe you left the shades up one day and the neighbors spy you giving her a very close and deep kiss. How comfortable would feel knowing all your gay neighbors might see those things? You could say, "I don't see any problem with it because that's normal behavior." But you might also say, "I would feel uncomfortable because of what my neighbors might think."

    Gay people face this sort of thing frequently. They kiss each other or hold hands or are physically affectionate with each other and they're told, "they're flaunting their sexuality!"

    Do you really care what other straight couples do in their own homes? Some straight couples fuck like bunnies, others don't have any sex at all, some are cheating on each other, some are miserable and on the verge of divorce. The fact is that the same things go on behind gay doors yet because of the sex involved, some straight people become uncomfortable because they then go on to imagine what's going on.

    To look at gay sex for a moment, nothing goes on in gay bedrooms that doesn't go on in straight bedrooms. Men go down on women, women go down on men, and lots of men like being anally penetrated by their wives either with fingers or a dildo. The anus is an erogenous zone in all men and not a single religion believes that sexual relations of any sort between a married man and woman is immoral. You can be a good Catholic or Southern Baptist so long as it's your wife pegging you with a dildo.

    But really, none of that matters. What adults do behind closed doors is really nobody else's business. Gays do not remotely care what straights do in the bedroom. Have you ever seen a gay march protesting straight sex? Have you ever seen gays claiming straight people should be denied marriage, adoption, a job, or being in the military because they're straight?

    Did you ever see black people protesting to ban white people from those things? Now that blacks have full civil rights (though that may not be practiced in some places) and we've even elected a half-black president, do you see any instance where whites are barred from anything?

    The key comes down to respect for individuality (a very American principle), privacy (another very American principle), and that in public life, we are all, as American citizens, treated equally (an extremely American principle). Now if your church or private club wants to bar gays or if you don't want to invite them into your home, then that's your prerogative.

    The marriage issue wouldn't be a big deal except that marriage confers legal rights and benefits to families allowing them to live as families in our society. Family members have rights to visit each other in hospital or prison, to decide our fate in terminally ill cases, rights of inheritance, to combine tax statuses, and most importantly, rights of parenthood.

    Could you imagine your wife building a home for you, staying at home as a homemaker, raising your kids, managing your finances, standing by you through thick and thin, enriching your life in ever way and then, as soon as you die, your relatives coming in and taking it all away from her? The state claiming that all your property belongs to them? She ends up with nothing but the clothes on her back. That happens to gay couples.

    Can you imagine your wife staying home and getting audited by the IRS every year, you limited to giving her only $10,000 a year and paying gift taxes on it, and then she gets dunned for inheritance taxes at your death? That happens to gay couples.

    Imagine your wife is fighting in Iraq, serving her country in the most noble way possible only it's somehow discovered that she has a husband at home waiting for her. She's dishonorably discharged and sent home without benefit or pay. Imagine nobody discovers your wife is married to a man and your wife, God forbid, is killed in action and receives a military funeral. They don't hand the flag to you. They hand it to her parents. You don't receive any death benefits. That happens to gay couples.

    Imagine your wife, again God forbid, is in a hospital near death and you can't visit her because you're not legally her family. Imagine she slips into a vegetative state and you have no say in whether life support is continued or terminated. Both of these things happen to gay couples.

    Imagine your wife needs a transfusion and the only person who can donate that blood is a gay person. Your wife won't get that blood because gays cannot donate blood.

    And the greatest horror:

    Could you imagine your wife dying and then find social services on your doorstep to take away your kids because you're not their legal parent? Your kids are taken away, put into foster homes, and you have to hope that not only can you afford a lawyer, but that the lawyer wins. If you don't win or can't afford defending yourself and your family, then your kids could go into foster care or be handed over to her relatives until they're 18. That happens to gay families.
     
    #16 jason_els, Nov 14, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2008
  17. Iluvmywife333

    Iluvmywife333 New Member

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    Just to show I'm not a one sided fanatic...I found a post from mindseye on another thread and I totally agree with it.

    "Marriage is a contract. Contracts are a legal matter, not a religious matter. If churches want to create something new, they can." - mindseye

    See, this goes along with my smoker illustration. By allowing gays to marry on a civil level, they are not imposing that the entire restaurant needs to be a smoking sections. It correlates, in my opinion, because then religious or the morally conforming can have their views without being badgered and gays still get their civil rights....

    Hmmm...I guess that answers one of my questions then....Being gay is a civil right if they are being suppressed on a governmental level. Thanks everyone for your comments. More are welcome.
     
  18. beretta8

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    Homophobia is not only a fear of homosexuals it is also a fear of being one. I don't understand why some people must delude themselves into thinking they are above others especially when they have no information, no facts to support the claim. The act of gay sex is really something you would have to seek out to see? no?....If this is something you never see why would you be concerned with this. Yes, gay sex is a choice to partake in, just as straight sex is a choice, and it is a natural way of people sharing their feelings for each other.....from my point of view homosexuality itself is not a choice, its a part of who I am as a person.
     
  19. Phil Ayesho

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    Well then you can just skim thru it...

    Maybe it seems that way to you because my positions and perspectives are all based upon an internally cohesive set of principles and ethical reasoning.
    In that sense I am sure I am predictable.

    No, I don't cut and paste.. When I started to reply to this thread it had only the op. By the time I had typed my repsinse it had numerous entries...

    And I disagree with your characterization.

    Homophobia and weak, played out fear mongering over homosexual 'rights' is actually the 'uncosntructive" option.

    It is not 'unconstructive' to urge people to think about their views and have valid arguments to support them... or abandon them for views that do have valid supporting argument.

    That is how your computer came into being.
    By not accepting the opinions of others unchallenged... but testing so that only those opinions that can be backed up are taken seriously.

    Unconstructive would be to argue against progress.

    No one in their right mind can maintain that the OPs comments were progressive.

    Quite the reverse.
     
  20. Iluvmywife333

    Iluvmywife333 New Member

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    I just read your post jason. You make a lot of VERY good points and I've really changed, or rather acknowledged my view, as far as the political scheme goes. I'm curious if you ever speak publically on the matter. You're very convincing.

    Anyways, I am sorry that gays face opression and I can understand why their quick to rebuttle people who sound even the slight bit oppositionary, as I might have...

    However, I guess its more of the snowball effect i'm worried about. I don't want something beautiful like civil rights to turn around and become a tool for bashing ANY moral ideal. Will I be able to tell my kids that I believe that homosexuality is wrong without CPS taking them or the schools reinstituting a different view and calling me a social heretic. I would never force my children not to be gay if they chose to...I just don't want to see fanaticism on either side. I wish more people were reasonable about it like jason has been, is all I'm saying. I guess its just starting to feel like i'm the minority. LOL.
     
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