Civil Right or Civil Wrong?

[Pdick]

Why do you even care what goes on in your neighbors bedroom? Does it impact your life in some measurable or tangible way?

As long as something does not affect you negatively in some way, or affect someone else in a negative way, leave well enough alone. What goes on between two consenting parties is their business, not yours. Fred and Barney getting their freak on together has absolutely 0% impact on your life in any way, shape, or form.

Marriage is an institution of the church first. Somewhere along the line, it became an institution of the state too. I think when people say they are against gay marriage, they are really against the idea of a marriage being something besides a man and a woman as the church intended it. I also think that a lot of people would not have a problem with some kind of civil union between same sex couples that offered the same benefits within the state, but just don't call it marriage. Leave the church out of it, and I think it would be much more accepted.

 

[surferboy]

Heaven forbid straight men have big penises and want to better technique and be part of a community.

this is the only thing you've said that i agree with...

but, with that said, what exactly did you say to her? like, word for word?

 

[Iluvmywife333]

It's in post #14. I'd rather not script it since it happened a lot earlier today and I may misconstrue dialogue.

Surferboy, Did you happen to read post #17 and 20. I really am trying to be open minded without changing everything I've believed. Please bare with me.

 

[Ren69]

I am straight, but i try to respect the life and rights of other people... All we need to live in peace... if they have sex is okay, we need respect as they need too...


Hugs for everyone...

 

[2322]

I just read your post jason. You make a lot of VERY good points and I've really changed, or rather acknowledged my view, as far as the political scheme goes. I'm curious if you ever speak publically on the matter. You're very convincing.

Anyways, I am sorry that gays face opression and I can understand why their quick to rebuttle people who sound even the slight bit oppositionary, as I might have...

However, I guess its more of the snowball effect i'm worried about. I don't want something beautiful like civil rights to turn around and become a tool for bashing ANY moral ideal. Will I be able to tell my kids that I believe that homosexuality is wrong without CPS taking them or the schools reinstituting a different view and calling me a social heretic. I would never force my children not to be gay if they chose to...I just don't want to see fanaticism on either side. I wish more people were reasonable about it like jason has been, is all I'm saying. I guess its just starting to feel like i'm the minority. LOL.

Parents are free to teach their kids anything they want. So long as the kid passes the school test for whatever it is that runs counter to the parent's teachings, then you should have no legal problems. Many parents run into this with the teaching of evolution or racial or religious equality, though naturally school systems and teachers differ so it's difficult to say just what your child will be taught. As a parent, you need to learn your school system's goals and curriculum. Of course, were you to send your child to a private school, you'll avoid much of these issues.

If you look at the history of these issues, you'll see that there is no prohibition against teaching your kid what you believe is right. Despite racial civil rights advances, plenty of parents teach their kids that the races should not be equal, that their race is superior to others. Again with evolution, despite laws which disallow the teaching of Creationism in schools, parents have taught their kids their belief in how life on Earth was created and when. There are no laws to prevent you from teaching your child what you want in any of these instances nor are there any laws proposed to do so. Given the state of gay rights in this country compared to religious and racial rights, there isn't a chance in hell that your state or school system will drag you into court for teaching your kid that being gay is wrong though it might, depending on where you live, teach that there is nothing wrong with being gay. Again, your particular school system may or may not do this.

I guess it comes down to this. You don't have to like gays, you don't have to like gay sex, you don't have to think that being gay is morally acceptable. What you do have to do is to respect the right of other adults to live in society with the same rights as you have and lead the lives they see fit to live. Just as you don't want gays telling you how to live or what to believe or whom to marry or have sex with, they don't want you doing the same to them. It's about respect of your fellow citizens regardless of whether you believe what they do. Certainly half the people you meet every day, likely more, hold beliefs that run deeply contrary to your own in some way. As Americans we hold our Bill of Rights most dear because it allows all of us to live as we see fit. Gays aren't looking to do anything illegal, nothing that robs anyone else of their rights, nor seek any special rights that others do not have. Though it may sound absurd, gay marriage would allow two straight people of the same sex to marry just as it allows two gay people to be married so it doesn't bar straight people from having the same right as gay people. Gay people have married people of the opposite sex for various reasons, some having far more to do with convenience than love, just for the legal and social advantages marriage brings.

Beyond all that, I hope you strongly consider what you say to your kids about being gay. At the bottom of my signature is an organization devoted to helping gay kids. Many gay youth whose parents openly disapprove of homosexuality feel trapped. They don't know where to turn, they feel they can't trust their parents, and worry about not being loved anymore. Some of these kids truly believe their only options are to run away or commit suicide. The number of gay kids who commit suicide every year is horrendous. Many parents don't find out their kid is gay until they read the note and by then, it's too late. I've got to tell you, and I say this with all honesty, nobody chooses to be gay any more than they choose to be straight. The list of disadvantages is enormous, sometimes life threatening, frequently isolating, and always confusing. I hope that even if you tell your kids that you think being gay is morally wrong, that you always tell them know that you love them and will still love them even if they are gay in exactly the same breath.

I cannot emphasize this enough. To fail to do so could risk the life of your son or daughter. I've heard too many parents wonder how their kid couldn't tell them, how their kid didn't know they would still be loved if they came out even if the parents were opposed to homosexuality. That's what you hear the parents say in the aftermath of their kid's suicide.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

However, I guess its more of the snowball effect i'm worried about. I don't want something beautiful like civil rights to turn around and become a tool for bashing ANY moral ideal.

Again... what argument can you offer that your idea is moral?

Religious or political Dogma is not moral simply because it claims to be.
The terrorists who flew planes into the towers claimed to be acting morally.

You must be able to lay out a cohesive argument that explains why your idea is moral.

If you believe in maximally responsible freedom and equality for the individual, which is the founding principle of the Untied States... then you you must demonstrate how homosexuality can be morally wrong.

If you can not... then you should abandon the idea of it being morally wrong.
That does not mean you take the position of liking it, or of preferring it.
It just means that you must acknowledge that your objection to it has no basis in true morality or ethics.

Will I be able to tell my kids that I believe that homosexuality is wrong without CPS taking them or the schools reinstituting a different view and calling me a social heretic. I would never force my children not to be gay if they chose to...I just don't want to see fanaticism on either side.

You can TELL your children anything. Lots of people still stuff all kinds of biases and predjudices in their kids' heads... no one stops them.

But you imply that you would object to the school explaining to your children that science says homosexuality is a developmental variation, and that it is wrong to treat them as less equal? Wrong to assault them, belittle them, and otsracize them?

The fear of schools treating homosexuality as matter of factly as any other subject... without condemnation, is a political scare tactic.


You SAY you will not force your children not to be gay... but you must understand that indoctrinating them with your opinion that it is wrong is essentially going to act as a huge pressure on them to deny any feelings, to set up internal conflicts and fears of rejection.

Why not just leave the topic alone and let them come to their own conclusions?

A large part of the emotional pain involved in coming to grips with being gay is the foreknowledge of family disapproval.

The only reason parents tell their children some things are right and others are wrong is in a hope to influence their actions.


Again... what difference could it possibly make to you how other people conduct themselves?
How does some other couple, who do not live with you, being homosexual, even remotely impinge upon your freedom to Not be homosexual?

How does it reduce or limit your personal freedom in any way?










I wish more people were reasonable about it like jason has been, is all I'm saying. I guess its just starting to feel like i'm the minority. LOL.[/QUOTE]

 

[Corius]

i have read this thread with great interest. That which my social environment laid on me did not prepare me for what I actually did encounter when I reached my mid-teen years. But, I had very wise parents who did not lay on me a host of do's and don'ts that many of my peers seemed to accept as the conventional wisdom. I did not intend that my friendship with the new guy in town would become sexual, but when it happened both he and I accepted it as natural and right and, strrangely perhaps, we did not stop thinking of ourselves as regular guys. That early guilt-free experience allows me to see the love expressed between two men as wholesome and worthy of respect. The love between a man and a woman was something which I was also eager to experience. The journey into the fullness of one's sexuality is something which follows no set pattern. In the words of the Dylan song it seems that many still do not accept the fact that in so many ways "Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command" and wise parents and teachers learn to tread lightly. 'That is something you will have to decide for yourself," was a line I heard often from my parents. I came to view it as a challenge and an opportunity. We all have our hang ups, but we ought to be careful not to lay them on those who are young.