Clinton goes too far; finally

[2322]

I'm a publicist. A bunch of you guys already knew that I think, but I'm bringing it up here for a pretty specific reason. I've made a career out of making bullshit sound convincing and preparing deflections to questions people don't want to answer. So I can offer some expertise on this debate.

Putting aside whether or not invoking assassination is a poor choice of words, or poor taste, or the various misspeaks from either of the Clintons, Obama, McCain, or anyone who's ever run for or won political office... there is a fundamental error to this particular statement that most people are overlooking. And it's an error that reveals a lot about the psychology of Hillary Clinton and her closest advisors.

In political terms "June" of 92/68 was the second week of February 2008.

This year 42 states voted by the time we got to the date of the New Hampshire primaries in 92 or 68. One simply cannot compare this year's race to the historical record. If one insists to (or accepts Clinton's explanation) then you'd have to parse out the dates.

The flawed logic inherent in this talking point sheds light on what "Hillary really meant" by bringing up RFK.

Clinton is undeniably a very shrewd and intelligent person. I'm sure she's fully aware of the flawed logic in her statement, just as I'm sure her communications team has a response/deflection prepared in case someone brings it up. That's what communications teams do.

So I give her the benefit of the doubt that she's aware of the fact that what she is saying makes little sense. Which brings me to the other part of the talking point: the 2 consistent examples she uses to justify the statement, Bill and RFK. This is the 4th time she's referenced them together since the beginning of March, so they are intrinsic to the talking point. Again, I believe this simply because I do PR for a living.

The Bill example makes a lot of sense. He was the most recent Democratic President and he's her husband. If I was crafting her message he's the first person I would mention too. Which brings me to RFK. Any number of other examples could be used, and yet this is the one that was selected. Why? Two reasons: to invoke the specter of the Obama being assassinated and a Democratic convention that is utter chaos. Those are the two biggest reasons to use Kennedy as the other example, and as an objective communications specialist I would say they are damn good ones too. There are other reasons why he's a good choice but they are mostly derivative of the main two.

Regardless of your candidate of choice, anyone who believes that she is not intentionally trying to impress the image of Obama being murdered is being as naive as she hopes you are.

Superb analysis. When I need PR I'm hiring you.

... although this Edina Monsoon woman keeps calling me... something about Lulu.

 

[Skull Mason]

It's a complete bullshit call being made by people who want Hillary to prematurely quit out of the race, and the more I see people actually trying to make this an issue the more I want to shake my head in shame for actually being a Democrat.

I feel more and more like a republican as the days go by. When you agree with sean hannity more than msnbc you know its the end of days...

 

[saabman]

CITE please where Obama said his grandmother was a "typical white person" - that's not what he said in his speech on race. If you're going to quote him - cite it proper, not your half-assed re-wash, that is spun from someone else's half-assed commentary about his throwing grandma under a bus. That's not what he said. Quote his speech, don't paraphrase critics of his speech and call it his speech. Ass.

He called his grandmother a "typical white person". Those were his words that came out of his mouth. It was during an interview. I heard them. Everyone heard them. The media chose to ignore them.:biggrin1:

 

[B_JasonDawgxxx]

If Obama gets the ticket I shall vote for Mccain.I dont trust obama or his "change" b.s. what change? he has no plan,just a catchy slogan

 

[saabman]

It amazes me how touchy and childish most Obama supports act on here. They are beyond defensive if someone mentions a negative remark about him. Honestly, lighten up if you want the Hillary supports, which by the way, will be winning this election either for McCain of Obama, to be on your side.

I am convinced with each passing day that these so-called "supporters" are less and less "for" their Messiah, Obama and more and more "against" Clinton, which is sad and pathetic. It's almost as if they have some sick and twisted blind hatred for this woman. Too bad. My Mom has known her for some time now, and knows her to be funny, smart, and intelligent. I've met her twice and agree.

Four years ago Barry was running around the Illinois state house voting "present" over 200 times - and the idea of this inexperienced man running the country is scary. He talks real pretty into a microphone, and people swoon like schoolgirls. How pathetic.

 

[saabman]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least. There are rumors out there that she's done that sort of thing before...

And, this is yet an other reason she should not be Obama's VP. She'd have him assassinated within a week and then she'd have what she wanted all along, the presidency. That's all this woman wants, is to rule as president, perhaps for life.

Wow. Did the voices in your head tell you to say that?

 

[deleted15807]

If Obama gets the ticket I shall vote for Mccain.I dont trust obama or his "change" b.s. what change? he has no plan,just a catchy slogan

Exactly. Hillary and McCain's positions on the issues that face the United States are inter-changeable.

If you like Bush you'll love McCain. His policies are a mirror image.

McCain: so wrong, but so what?

Despite the fact that he's been consistently wrong on Iraq, Americans trust his ability to handle the war more than Obama.

McCain: so wrong, but so what? - Los Angeles Times

 

[saabman]

So many people with their heads stuck up their asses that I don't even have the energy to point out how baseless your hatred for Obama and his supporters is. You have absolutely NO facts to back up your assumption that Obama is a wholly created personality and is disingenuous.
Barack is by all accounts a highly intelligent individual with some REAL credentials behind him... he is the real deal.




He is a stuck-up elitist who was raised in Hawaii (lots of suffering there) and has no experience. Four years ago running around the Illinois state house voting "present" while listening to Rev. Wright does not a President make. Real deal...please...he's a real lotta nothin'. It's just a shame that by the time the Kool-Aid wears off for most of you - he will be sitting in the oval office.

 

[Trinity]

Superb analysis. When I need PR I'm hiring you.

Hire him for what? To relay inaccurate information? Hotbtminla presents a flawed analysis. His analysis has no bearing on what has been stated in relation to the comments:

"It is clear from the context that Hillary was invoking a familiar political circumstance in order to support her decision to stay in the race through June. I have heard her make this reference before, also citing her husband’s 1992 race, both of which were hard fought through June,” he said in a statement released by the campaign. “I understand how highly charged the atmosphere is, but I think it is a mistake for people to take offense.” RFK Jr.​

As RFK Jr states, It was the historical nature and how hard fought the nomination was in the three campaigns being referenced. This campaign for the Democratic Nomination 2008 has been longer than any in history - there is no equal.​

There is no flawed logic in Sen. Clinton's comments. The number of states voting that Hotbtminla cited, has little to do with the depth of the battle in the campaigns and what had taken place by a milestone month - as in June.​

Comparatively, the 1968 Primary which held only 13 primaries the length of the campaign along with the President's defeat, an assassination and Democratic Party in-fighting that led to riots at the convention made it an extremely contested primary.​

New Hampshire Primary - was held on the following dates: 1952-1968, second Tuesday in March, 2008 held January 8.​

The 1968 New Hampshire Democratic Primary was one of the crucial events in the politics of that landmark year in United States history. ​

On March 12, 1968, McCarthy came within 7 percentage points of defeating President Lyndon Johnson in New Hampshire. Johnson subsequently withdrew from the election with this Shermanesque statement: "I shall not seek, and will not accept, the nomination of my party for another term as your president." ​

Following Johnson's withdrawal, RFK announced his run for President and began his campaign. There were only 13 Primaries in 1968. [/quote]

 

[Industrialsize]

Hire him for what? To relay inaccurate information? Hotbtminla presents a flawed analysis. His analysis has no bearing on what has been stated in relation to the comments:

"It is clear from the context that Hillary was invoking a familiar political circumstance in order to support her decision to stay in the race through June. I have heard her make this reference before, also citing her husband’s 1992 race, both of which were hard fought through June,” he said in a statement released by the campaign. “I understand how highly charged the atmosphere is, but I think it is a mistake for people to take offense.” RFK Jr.​

As RFK Jr states, It was the historical nature and how hard fought the nomination was in the three campaigns being referenced. This campaign for the Democratic Nomination 2008 has been longer than any in history - there is no equal.​

There is no flawed logic in Sen. Clinton's comments. The number of states voting that Hotbtminla cited, has little to do with the depth of the battle in the campaigns and what had taken place by a milestone month - as in June.​

Comparatively, the 1968 Primary which held only 13 primaries the length of the campaign along with the President's defeat, an assassination and Democratic Party in-fighting that lead to riots at the convention made it an extremely contested primary.​

New Hampshire Primary - was held on the following dates: 1952-1968, second Tuesday in March, 2008 held January 8.​

The 1968 New Hampshire Democratic Primary was one of the crucial events in the politics of that landmark year in United States history. ​

On March 12, 1968, McCarthy came within 7 percentage points of defeating President Lyndon Johnson in New Hampshire. Johnson subsequently withdrew from the election with this Shermanesque statement: "I shall not seek, and will not accept, the nomination of my party for another term as your president." ​

Following Johnson's withdrawal, RFK announced his run for President and began his campaign. There were only 13 Primaries in 1968.

[/quote]So were the voters in the other 37 states "disenfranchised"....and btw, you keep repeating RFK JR.s amnesty for clinotn's remark. Newsflash, the kennedy's are a BIG family and it appears he holds the minority opinion:

KENNEDYS FEEL BOBBY-SOCKED

OUTRAGED RFK KIN SAY HILL'S NOW TOAST



KENNEDYS FEEL BOBBY-SOCKED - New York Post

 

[tripod]

Actually Tripod, Francine Torgue, a former John Edwards supporter was the first one to draw a link between Obama & JFK in a statement back in January when she introduced Clinton at a rally. This was before Clinton's supposed "first time". And when that happened, Clinton's camp immediately addressed. Phil Singer immediately followed suit with a response: "We were not aware that this person was going to make those comments and disapprove of them completely. They were totally inappropriate."

NYTimes Raises Obama Assassination Fears | NewsBusters.org

So there you have it. Was Clinton the first to mention anything about the possible assassination of Obama? Absolutely not. In fact, they even tried to address the issue promptly. Not that any of this matters to you and any anti-Hillary people. You've already have tried to link every known evil in the world to this one woman, just like Republicans have done ever since she won the Senate in New York.

Woah... VinylBoy, slow down man. I have absolutely NOT tried to link Hillary to every known evil in the world, why the hell would I do that? I think that she is a hawk, a friend of the industrial military complex, way too tight with APAC, and would do or say just about anything if it benefited her politically. I like her as a person, I think that she is cool and I have always wanted to fuck Chelsea (she has some BIG damn lips).

I haven't even looked at the link, but I trust you VinylBoy, you have your head on straight. You are one of the only Clinton supporters with a level head on their shoulders.

The point was never who said it first, but that it was a talking point and that she was repeating it hoping that her campaign would benefit from that. It is one thing to make a guffaw in a public speech, but it is another thing to say it repeatedly as a talking point. There is NO comparison, it is apples and oranges.

The overall fear of a black president getting shot was already implanted in the minds of people a LONG time ago. But as always, people want to use Clinton as the scapegoat for things that have existed in the twisted minds of man for generations. It's a complete bullshit call being made by people who want Hillary to prematurely quit out of the race, and the more I see people actually trying to make this an issue the more I want to shake my head in shame for actually being a Democrat.

I am not using her as a scapegoat, but I am pointing out that her tired campaign is resorting to gutter tactics once again to try and hurt an honest politician.

Stop with the conspiracy theories, Tripod. Even black people, you know.. the race that should have the fear the most, know she didn't mean that.

Well, black or white, I don't think it matters... JFK and RFK were white, Malcolm X and MLK were black, it is pretty even Stevens as far as the ethnic groups are concerned.

And for the record, my grandparents had been passing for white for three generations. I have red hair and green eyes, but I am a Hexadecaroon or something... they passed as white to escape Jim Crowe.

I've got a little black in me! lol!!!

I like you VinylBoy, you are levelheaded and a pretty cool guy and your link was cool, I was kind of surprised that Obama's camp was the first to bring it up on the campaign trail. That doesn't change the fact that she was hoping to put a seed in the minds of the people who heard her say it repeatedly and to subsequently gain a boost in her campaign.

She was using the statement repeatedly for her personal gain and that is fucking wrong, that is the issue, not who brought it up first.

 

[dreamer20]

Hillary Clinton is VERY smart. She chooses her words(parses) VERY carefully. She chose the WRONG ones...The Kennedy's are also going through the tragedy of Senator Kennedy's grim diagnosis, they didn't need to be reminded of their Brother's assasination. ...Do I think her remarks were incredibly tone deaf and very poorly chosen?ABSOLUTELY YES. If she is running for a VP slot she just kissed her chances goodbye.

Clinton is undeniably a very shrewd and intelligent person. I'm sure she's fully aware of the flawed logic in her statement, ...
the talking point: the 2 consistent examples she uses to justify the statement, Bill and RFK. This is the 4th time she's referenced them together since the beginning of March, so they are intrinsic to the talking point.

The Bill example makes a lot of sense. He was the most recent Democratic President and he's her husband. If I was crafting her message he's the first person I would mention too. Which brings me to RFK. Any number of other examples could be used, and yet this is the one that was selected. Why? Two reasons: to invoke the specter of the Obama being assassinated and a Democratic convention that is utter chaos. Those are the two biggest reasons to use Kennedy as the other example, and as an objective communications specialist I would say they are damn good ones too. There are other reasons why he's a good choice but they are mostly derivative of the main two.

Regardless of your candidate of choice, anyone who believes that she is not intentionally trying to impress the image of Obama being murdered is being as naive as she hopes you are.

YouTube - What Does RFK's Assassination Have to Do with It?


I saw the comment Hillary made in the context of the above interview which appears to be innocent. Yet it definitely was both a poor choice of words and the worst possible June convention example for her to use.

 

[Trinity]

IndustrialSize

So were the voters in the other 37 states "disenfranchised"....and btw, you keep repeating RFK JR.s amnesty for clinotn's remark. Newsflash, the kennedy's are a BIG family and it appears he holds the minority opinion:

KENNEDYS FEEL BOBBY-SOCKED

Kennedys for Obama. Kennedys for Clinton. Sounds like the nation...and how we see Sen. Clinton's comments differently. However, RFK Jr. has clearly and justly interpreted Sen. Clinton's statement.

To answer your question, Of course not. They held caucuses...but again you missed the point. How many states had voted has absolutely nothing to do with the issue. The Campaign of 1968 started in August 1967 when Johnson announced and went all the way to the Covention in August of 1968.

The point is that the Democratic campaign was hard fought and hotly contested From August 1967 to June 1968 where the President was defeated and quit the race, the Vice President entered the race and one of the candidates was assassinated. The length of the race is comparable and the fight comparable, with the differences in the election processes (differing of primaries and caucuses)...number of states having voted by June is irrelevant to what we are discussing.


1992 is comparable. 1968 is comparable. Hillary Clinton didn't threaten Obama's life or say anything racially motivated. She mentioned a historical presidential race that was hard fought. The other races kept going through to completion...why shouldn't this even race finish. That is the point.

1968: The presidential primaries played a major role in one of the most tumultuous and violent years in the nation’s history.​

Growing dissent against President Lyndon B. Johnson’s massive deployment of U.S. troops to the war in Vietnam and the rising death toll in that conflict spurred a mostly youthful movement behind the primary challenge by anti-war Democratic Sen. Eugene McCarthy of Minnesota, who held the incumbent to an 8 percentage-point victory margin in the March 12 primary in New Hampshire. Four days later, New York Sen. Robert F. Kennedy — brother of the slain president and former U.S. attorney general — made a late entry into the race, also stating his strong opposition to the Vietnam War. Johnson on March 31 scheduled a televised address, expected to focus on the war, and made a surprise announcement that he would not run for re-election. Four days after that, the nation was rocked by the murder of black civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr., which sparked destructive riots in many cities.​

Hubert Humphrey, elected vice president in 1964 on Johnson’s ticket, became the candidate of the Democratic establishment but he did not participate in the primaries, relying on party regulars who still controlled most of the convention delegates to secure the nomination for him. The remaining primaries became showdowns between Kennedy and McCarthy, culminating with Kennedy’s 46 percent to 42 percent victory in the California contest June 4.​

1968

Statewide contest by winner


Only 13 states held a primary at this time (California, Oregon, Nebraska, South Dakota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Florida).
Results by winners:
Eugene McCarthy

• Illinois
• Massachusetts
• New Jersey
• Oregon
• Pennsylvania
• Wisconsin

Robert F. Kennedy

• California
• Indiana
• Nebraska
• South Dakota

Lyndon B. Johnson

• New Hampshire

Stephen M. Young

• Ohio

George Smathers

• Florida

1992 Election Calendar

 

[deleted15807]

"She may have simply made a mistake but so did Obama when he made the “bitter” comment, and she had no qualms about piling on that and using Republican talking points to paint him as elitist. She had no problem piling on John Kerry when he made that botched joke back in 2006 and she wanted to help kill his chances of running again. So even if her remarks were taken out of context, she’s had no problem doing the same thing to her political rivals."

 

[tripod]

Trinity you are ignoring the fact that she was using it as a talking point, it was an offensive move on behalf of her campaign and she said it FOUR times over the past six weeks (all four of them were nearly verbatim with her leaving out the assassination term on the third instance).

Then you wanna talk about stuff that has no bearing on the situation. The 1968 and 1992 democratic primaries have NOTHING to do with 2008, you are again, putting up a straw man as your argument and are refusing to tackle the real issue.

And when you quote long passages from other sites you should probably attempt to cite your sources and provide quotation information, your long supporting arguments are almost useless without them.

 

[Trinity]

Trinity you are ignoring the fact that she was using it as a talking point, it was an offensive move on behalf of her campaign and she said it FOUR times over the past six weeks (all four of them were nearly verbatim with her leaving out the assassination term on the third instance).

Then you wanna talk about stuff that has no bearing on the situation. The 1968 and 1992 democratic primaries have NOTHING to do with 2008, you are again, putting up a straw man as your argument and are refusing to tackle the real issue.

And when you quote long passages from other sites you should probably attempt to cite your sources and provide quotation information, your long supporting arguments are almost useless without them.

You made no point. Nothing was offensive about what she said. She made the point four times, so what? Four times she talked about a historical fact that had nothing to do with Obama's race or a death threat. There was no offense in her doing so.

You again make no sense, because I am countering an analysis put forth by another poster which I quoted. I tackled the issue of Sen. Clinton's comments. Sen. Clinton commented on the races of 1968,1992 and 2008 and they are comparable and up for discussion despite the fact that Obama is running.

I posted historical information already known...it was only posted to remind people of the history of known events. If you wish to research and provide information that is in contrast to what I've posted...be my guest.

 

[hotbtminla]

Trinity you are ignoring the fact that she was using it as a talking point, it was an offensive move on behalf of her campaign and she said it FOUR times over the past six weeks (all four of them were nearly verbatim with her leaving out the assassination term on the third instance).

Then you wanna talk about stuff that has no bearing on the situation. The 1968 and 1992 democratic primaries have NOTHING to do with 2008, you are again, putting up a straw man as your argument and are refusing to tackle the real issue.

And when you quote long passages from other sites you should probably attempt to cite your sources and provide quotation information, your long supporting arguments are almost useless without them.

This is typical Trinity Tripod, and something I called her out on as far back as her second post on this this board. It's one of the reasons why I refuse to engage "her" in debate or acknowledge anything she says any more. Besides, mom used to yell at me whenever I played under bridges. :wink:

I did a somewhat similar communications analysis on Trinity a while back that I posted in a couple other threads which pretty plainly revealed her true colors. I'd be happy to dig that back up, and in fact might do it anyway since she appears to be trying to argue with me.

 

[Trinity]

"She may have simply made a mistake but so did Obama when he made the “bitter” comment, and she had no qualms about piling on that and using Republican talking points to paint him as elitist. She had no problem piling on John Kerry when he made that botched joke back in 2006 and she wanted to help kill his chances of running again. So even if her remarks were taken out of context, she’s had no problem doing the same thing to her political rivals."

a ha! That's it! Finally the truth...

But no. She didn't make a mistake. Nothing about what she said is racist, offensive, or a threat to Obama. To assert otherwise is absurd.

But people want to put insinuation into her statement because Obama made The Bitter comments and they were indefensible. Come on. Try to get her on something she did. The sniper fire mistake was at least real.

Obama looks like a weakling crying "She's trying to kill the black mand in the race and she mentioned a tragic event in our nation's history without my permission - look, look...now get her."

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I did a somewhat similar communications analysis on Trinity a while back that I posted in a couple other threads which pretty plainly revealed her true colors. I'd be happy to dig that back up, and in fact might do it anyway since she appears to be trying to argue with me.

Research is good.

 

[hotbtminla]

Research is good.

Isn't it? I actually put a lot more time into than it deserved, but it was my first troll hunt so I wanted to be thorough. Yeah, I think I may dig that back up again in case I feel the need to use the "nuclear option." :biggrin1:

And, before I forget:

Brilliant post, sweetheart. You've earned a whole level of respect from me.

:redface: I don't know how to put words together in a way to properly express how it feels to hear that from you, Bucko.

Superb analysis. When I need PR I'm hiring you.

... although this Edina Monsoon woman keeps calling me... something about Lulu.

Thank you Jason. That bloody woman keeps stealing my business. Something about a PR PR Persons Award. I'm going to send her a fax asking her to cease and desist.

[/b]

You're one of the few that has made any sense of this and Thank You!

Bah, that will likely be the last intelligent thing I say all weekend. Thank you, sexy. :tongue: