cloning

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Imported, Dec 27, 2002.

  1. Imported

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    lilAmy: Today they say they made the first cloned human, they say it was born.

    Some say its just worthless propaganda, what do you think?
     
  2. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    What a goof-up.

    Logic lesson:
    :: Cloned persons are not persons whose growth and development occurred inside the womb.
    :: Born persons are those whose growth and development occurred inside the womb.
    :: Therefore, cloned persons are not born persons.
     
  3. jonb

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    Actually, a clone is made by taking the nucleus out of the ovum and putting another nucleus in it.

    I personally think it's propaganda. But I've always been afraid of the day someone decides to clone a human.
     
  4. Imported

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    queenie: I think God is saying, "Don't make me have to come down there."
     
  5. jay_too

    jay_too New Member

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    remember with most techonolgies there were fears and wild speculation on the consequences of their adoption. 150 years ago railroading was an audacious technology; it was widely believed/known that travelling over 30 mph would cause damage to physiological systems. the house of commons considered several times barring the weaker sex from travelling on a railroad.

    i suspect that cloning will not be an adopted and implemented technology. there are reports among the cloned sheep of accelerated aging and autoimmune diseases such as arthritis. why? well, no one knows. however, i suspect that it is related to telomeres (sp??) which are located on the ends of chromosomes. as cells divide the telomeres, become shorter....so as we age, the telomeres become shorter. so what is happening is that the mother's chromosomes in the egg are removed and replaced with the chromosomes of an "old" person; that is, with telomeres shorter than those found in a normally fertilized egg. the cloned egg is then implanted in a womb and if successful, carried to full term.

    is this a moral issue? for me...no. in the 1980's, the morality of test tube babies was an issue...but it seemed to disappear as more and more in vitro babies were born and brought happiness to families.

    last night i saw on the news the squib that in this decade japan, korea, and taiwan were going to be sending their factories to china and that chinese industrial production may be half or the world's production. in the past year or so, china announced they would positioning themselves to become the cloning super power and were creating research centers across the nation. so someone is going to do it, i think the us and europe own it to their people to continue research in the area. there are other uses for cloning besides the creation of babies....such as tissues like skin or bone or growth of organs for replacement. perhaps, using cloning techonology organs for transplant could be developed that would be 100 percent compatible and thus, eliminate the need for immune suppressing drugs.

    we do not know what technology spinoffs would come from cloning.
     
  6. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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  7. Imported

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    cypher13: My visceral impresion of this - based on what I have encountered through the media thus far - is that this announcement is a hoax, the motivation for which remains unknown.

    My reasoning is essentially as follows: When Louise Brown was born in the late seventies, the people responsible for this not only held a press conference and showed us her picture immediately, but they published the technique in a refereed journal. In Dolly's case, it was the same, with the exact instructions published in Nature (nothing like starting at the top, right?). Both affairs were very low key and not nearly as bizarre as this one was. Even the New York Times relegated the story to the inner pages. And why are they employing Michael Guillen - a physicist - to serve as scientific liaison to the media?

    Second - Brigitte Boisselier indicated that the method used was similar to that for cloning Dolly, save that the technique was modified for human cloning. Fine, but what are these relevant modifications? Were this done by a responsible party, that party would have told us the modifications immediately or at least given some guidelines prior to publication, or publication would have been simultaneous with the press conference.

    Third - Every instance of cloning of which I am aware has a high number of failures for every success. In Dolly's case, it was hundreds of failures for one result. Now, doubtless this has improved, but there was no mention of failures even when reporters asked Dr. Boisselier about this, she rather disingenuously sidestepped the question. Well, were there any failures? How many? Or, do they have a whole new technique for cloning that has no failures? If so, to my way of thinking, this would be far more exciting - though not nearly as headline-grabbing - as cloning a human being.

    So, why isn't this in the pages of Nature or Science at the same time of the press conference? Why do they make this outlandish claim when, as fas as anyone seems to know, they have never cloned so much as an earthworm before, even though cloning seems to be part of the Raelian culture? It's all very weird and ultimately, I think the Raelians will back down from any rigorous scientific examination of the infant on the grounds that it is better to take their word for it, or it is ultimately a matter of faith or the space aliens told them to keep the technology secret so it might not fall into the wrong hands...or myriad other possibilities. It all strikes me as, at best, poor scientific methodology; at worst, it is an outright lie in an effort to gain publicity.

    Ultimately, the technology probably does exist at this time. Is it a good thing? I tend to think it is as good or as bad as its exploitation. Given the precedents of antibiotics and nuclear energy, I am not entirely optimistic about this.

    A
     
  8. johnstone1985

    johnstone1985 New Member

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    It's true that what has already been said by jay_too, but unlike any other scientific advancement cloning changes our whole outlook on life. Cloning seems inevitable, but in my opinion Cloning should not be a means of reproduction as evolution would no longer pay a part in humanity and that can only be a disadvantage. We would no longer be immune to diseases our ancestors had to battle off to survive, and conditions such as short sightedness (caused by learning to read at an early age) will not be eradicated any time soon, and what we should look like as humans in the millions of years to come will probably be a lot different if we begin to use cloning and genetic engineering when creating the children of the future.

    We must also take into consideration what benefits cloning can have. Yes, evolution would play a smaller role, but rather than wait for evolution to sort out our problems over numerous generations we could fix in one. Couples who for some reason or another wouldn’t be able to have children would not only be able to have children but pick their sex, IQ and even physical appearance, but personally the last few should be left to fate.

    Anyway that’s my two cents in on the topic (or in my case two pence!).
     
  9. Imported

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    ORCABOMBER: Good debate going, but I was just thinking, well, I agree with what all you guys are saying (I'm forced to learn chromosomes at school ??? ) but I'm wondering what would happen if cloning became massively successful as say IVF (roughly speaking anyway). I mean, in the UK they're thinking of a DNA database, well that goes out the window if the clones have "criminal" parents or vice versa.

    Also, imagine the effects on the sperm and egg bank services, can you imagine if you could end up with a clone off your donation? (That'd put me off for life!)

    The other thing is, I don't believe the cult has done jack shit, I mean, it took a lot of attempts to clone a sheep, let alone the number of dead children, embryoes and everything in between that will come out of this. If people get it right first time, I'll be amazed.

    I mean, cloning tissues from stem cells, yeah, I like the idea, you can grow them in petri dishes etc, but I dunno about you, but I rank a whole human being as something more important.
     
  10. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    Orca, I agree that the cult clinic has probably perpetrated a giant fraud.

    It wouldn't surprise me a bit to find that they've done some kind of crude invitro-fertilization and called it cloning.

    In the meantime, dupes all over the world are probably sending big bucks to the cult-leader's coffers.

    It takes all kinds.

    Pecker
     
  11. jonb

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    [quote author=ORCABOMBER link=board=99;num=1041042048;start=0#8 date=12/30/02 at 06:35:14]I mean, in the UK they're thinking of a DNA database, well that goes out the window if the clones have "criminal" parents or vice versa. [/quote]

    It already goes out the window if a criminal has an identical twin.

    I doubt the Raelians have done anything either; if they had, why haven't they shown us this clone? Why haven't they published any of the research? They said they made "some modifications" to the Dolly project, but they didn't say what they changed. I mean, back when Dolly was cloned, it was published in just about every credible magazine. But here, nothing.
     
  12. jay_too

    jay_too New Member

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  13. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

    B_DoubleMeatWhopper New Member

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    It would be kind of cool, in a twisted sort of way, to have sex with a clone of yourself...

    (A silence falls over the room and eyebrows shoot up towards hairlines as Whopper once again steps over the line of good taste.)

    Uh ... forget I said anything.
     
  14. johnstone1985

    johnstone1985 New Member

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    [quote author=DoubleMeatWhopper link=board=99;num=1041042048;start=0#12 date=12/31/02 at 00:30:32]It would be kind of cool, in a twisted sort of way, to have sex with a clone of yourself...

    (A silence falls over the room and eyebrows shoot up towards hairlines as Whopper once again steps over the line of good taste.)

    Uh ... forget I said anything.[/quote]

    LOL... You could ask yourself for pointers on where to improve!

    Anyway, what I was thinking about were the benefits of cloning our world leaders at a later date when they are most needed. We could clone Tony Blair (well... maybe not!), George 'Dubya' Bush ( wait, that's a bad example) or even Saddam Hussein (this is just getting worse).

    Now I dunno what's worse. A test tube filled with the small pox virus, or a test tube filled with Big Georges skin cells?!?!?
     
  15. Imported

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    Finedessert: ROFLMAO! Who in their right mind would want to look at TWO of me. ::)

    Grandpa
     
  16. jonb

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    Would sex with your clone be incest or masturbation? Can you cheat on someone with her clone?
     
  17. Imported

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    cypher13: Now it appears that the "parents" of the cloned baby are refusing a DNA test. Doesn't the concept of "parents" get cast aside if the "clone" is really a clone?

    There are a number of explanations for this, ranging from fraud, to success and encounters with space aliens. The simplest and most plausible explanation is fraud.

    Furthermore, the NY Times this morning says there will be another cloned baby born this weekend.

    A
     
  18. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    Maybe their Mothership will land soon and take them all away.

    Pecker
     
  19. johnstone1985

    johnstone1985 New Member

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    The second cloned baby was born today to a Duch Lesbian.

    Thought you might want to know.
     
  20. Imported

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    prepstudinsc: I heard something about that the first cloned baby really isn't cloned and that the biloigcal company is backing down on its claim. I haven't had time to follow the news this weekend, so I don't know how true it is....I just heard it in passing since I had the TV on in the background but wasn't watching it.
     
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