Comey hearings - the beginning of the end?

[Industrialsize]

Agreed. Now the question is getting it "reasonably proved" in a Trump Administration.

The investigators are working against their own personal self-interests. It is a toxic environment to investigate the President and Commander-in-Chief.

I hope they find it, but I think it will take a chamber of Congress to flip before impeachment becomes even remotely possible.

The investigators are career intelligence officials. Mr Comey is unfireable at this point. No one is working against their self interests.

 

[KennF]

The investigators are career intelligence officials. Mr Comey is unfireable at this point. No one is working against their self interests.

I do disagree, again, to an extent. I wasn't talking about firings.

There is a difference between firing someone, and just giving them new assignments, reassigning their workloads so that they are no longer on the investigation, or that their position is subordinated. No matter how hard you try and avoid it, retaliation in the workforce exists. And, your future and your career are subject to the assignments assigned. The right assignment can make your career or stagnate it.

There is a great deal of hypothesis and judgment used during an investigation. Some leads may be considered, while others discounted.

I think it would be naïve to think that career IO's ignore the political climate. I think every one of them is considering how this investigation will impact their careers.

"Do I present my evidence with conviction", or, "Do I present my evidence as speculative"?
"Do I acknowledge I have a promising lead", or, "Do I state I have a potential lead"?
"Do I aggressively pursue an informant asset", or, "Do I wait for an informant asset to come to me"?
Ultimately... "If I present now, will it be accepted, or, will it be discounted as insufficient?"​

Even career officials have to deal with basic workplace politics.

 

[Industrialsize]

I do disagree, again, to an extent. I wasn't talking about firings.

There is a difference between firing someone, and just giving them new assignments, reassigning their workloads so that they are no longer on the investigation, or that their position is subordinated. No matter how hard you try and avoid it, retaliation in the workforce exists. And, your future and your career are subject to the assignments assigned. The right assignment can make your career or stagnate it.

There is a great deal of hypothesis and judgment used during an investigation. Some leads may be considered, while others discounted.

I think it would be naïve to think that career IO's ignore the political climate. I think every one of them is considering how this investigation will impact their careers.

"Do I present my evidence with conviction", or, "Do I present my evidence as speculative"?
"Do I acknowledge I have a promising lead", or, "Do I state I have a potential lead"?
"Do I aggressively pursue an informant asset", or, "Do I wait for an informant asset to come to me"?
Ultimately... "If I present now, will it be accepted, or, will it be discounted as insufficient?"​

Even career officials have to deal with basic workplace politics.

No they don't. I have family in DHS and the FBI. There are 854,000 people who hold Top Secret security clearances. You demean their work. They go to work daily, sometimes at peril to their own lives, for one reason only, to seek the truth, regardless of the occupant of the White House.

 

[TexanStar]

No they don't. I have family in DHS and the FBI. There are 854,000 people who hold Top Secret security clearances. You demean their work. They go to work daily, sometimes at peril to their own lives, for one reason only, to seek the truth, regardless of the occupant of the White House.

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/arti...-running-joke-about-getting-sued-lawsuit-says

Is sexually harassing fellow employees part of that "one reason only" then?

I mean, if we're going to paint a picture of these people as noble crusaders who fight purely for truth, justice, and the American way, and live in the stratosphere far removed from the kind of negative things that can crop up in consequences, then that has to be part of it, right?

Like asking female coworkers if they can lick their pussy must be related to counter-terrorism or something?

People are people. The FBI is no more immune to human failings and weaknesses than anybody else is.

 

[KennF]

No they don't. I have family in DHS and the FBI. There are 854,000 people who hold Top Secret security clearances. You demean their work. They go to work daily, sometimes at peril to their own lives, for one reason only, to seek the truth, regardless of the occupant of the White House.

I do not demean either their work, nor their peril.

No one, not you, not me, not any of the millions on federal workers, not any of the millions of private workers are truly working in a vacuum. And, quite frankly, I think you are underestimate their awareness and intelligence now.

Regardless of their noble intentions, they are still working in teams and groups, and assignments are handed out, and, ambitions are in play. They report to a supervisor with ambitions and political beliefs. Otherwise, they wouldn't be a supervisor.

If the investigators aren't aware of their surrounding, then they wouldn't be in the FBI. They'd be in some other career.

How can anyone suggest that they should ignore the political environment?

I'm not suggesting they'd turn a blind eye, but they have to acknowledge their working political environment and decide what is clear and convincing and what is speculation that won't advance forward.

 

[Industrialsize]

I do not demean either their work, nor their peril.

No one, not you, not me, not any of the millions on federal workers, not any of the millions of private workers are truly working in a vacuum. And, quite frankly, I think you are underestimate their awareness and intelligence now.

Regardless of their noble intentions, they are still working in teams and groups, and assignments are handed out, and, ambitions are in play. They report to a supervisor with ambitions and political beliefs. Otherwise, they wouldn't be a supervisor.

If the investigators aren't aware of their surrounding, then they wouldn't be in the FBI. They'd be in some other career.

How can anyone suggest that they should ignore the political environment?

I'm not suggesting they'd turn a blind eye, but they have to acknowledge their working political environment and decide what is clear and convincing and what is speculation that won't advance forward.

FYI: Career IC workers hate Trump for the most part. Morale across all agencies is very low. But by making their goal, the truth, Their work products are not effected by the occupant of the White House.

 

[KennF]

FYI: Career IC workers hate Trump for the most part. Morale across all agencies is very low. But by making their goal, the truth, Their work products are not effected by the occupant of the White House.

I agree. Morale is low. Mostly because the current White House is wants to control the information more than it wants the truth.

And, I hate to say this, the truth isn't always sufficient in politics.

The truth hasn't been winning.

 

[Industrialsize]

I agree. Morale is low. Mostly because the current White House is wants to control the information more than it wants the truth.

And, I hate to say this, the truth isn't always sufficient in politics.

The truth hasn't been winning.

And that's why we see leaks; Career intelligence officials risking their livelihoods to make sure the truth gets out. I fully expect the IC to soon become a sieve as it relates to Trump, Russia and the truth.

 

[b.c.]

The discussion here seems to break down into two "camps": the one that believes Trump's supporters and Republican's/conservatives in general are going dump Trump over this issue, and the side that believes they won't. I'm inclined to agree with the latter.

I think the mistake some are making here is believing Trump's supporters and Republicans in Congress think and operate on a higher moral plane than what they actually DO. As if some have already forgotten what kind of ideology and hateful rhetoric they, that "basket" of Trump voters, turned out in DROVES to support.

Someone up above wrote, "They're still Americans." Maybe he didn't see the image I posted of supporters at Trump rallies wearing "Trump - Putin" T-shirts. Maybe he missed that poll that showed conservatives have a higher opinion of Putin than they do of Obama.

Kenn F is correct in saying that the Comey revelations, the Trump-Russian connection, the Russian influence on the election, the Trump LIES... they won't give a damn about ANY of it. And as for Republicans in Congress, their own fkn JOBS will be the bottom line for THEM. It'll all boil down to a numbers game: which means as long as Trump still has the support of his (meaning THEIR) constituency (and he does and WILL) Republicans in Congress won't DARE buck him.

The ONLY way any of that MIGHT change is when Trump/GOP policymaking starts hurting their OWN supporters. (Actually, it HAS been, it's just that they've been able to blame it on Obama in the past.)

As for the Trump-GOP-Russian collusion, tampering, influencing of the election? Conservatives don't give a fuck about that.

Stop expecting more of them than what they ARE.

 

[deleted15807]

As for the Trump-GOP-Russian collusion, tampering, influencing of the election? Conservatives don't give a fuck about that.

Stop expecting more of them than what they ARE.

Exactly. Do not expect any kind of moral or patriotic imperative. It is strictly are MY chances for wealth and power better with Trump or without him? The country, my constituents, my party are really irrelevant. And how can I keep my brazen self-interest off the radar from my low information district voters. All they wanted to know in yesterday's hearings was WHO is leaking all this damaging information. Not there's a fire but WHO called the fire department?

 

[deleted116951]

The Trump supporter base will probably follow Trump all the way through to the point where he absconds in the night to Moscow. They, like him, are incapable of admitting they were wrong. They really aren't even Republicans - they're Trumpians.

Actual elected Republican politicians on the other hand I believe have very little actual loyalty to Trump - they have loyalty to him only as long as he helps push their conservative agenda. The vast majority of Republicans were staunchly anti-Trump during the primaries and only changed their stripes when it was clear he was becoming their nominee.

That said - the moment this investigation delivers anything of substance linking Trump and his staff definitively to Russia the Republican agenda comes to a grinding halt as the nation begins to talk treason. Unable to move their agenda ahead mired by allegations of treason Trump no longer is any use to the Republican party and they will turn on him. Then every Republican will try their damnedest to push Trump as far away from them as possible and do as much as they can to help to show their electorate they were one of the champions that ended the Red Trump Menace.

The same thing happened during the Nixon administration. People thought his party would never turn on him but the evidence mounted and mounted and eventually his own party forced him to resign.

Its that whole "history....doomed to repeat it" thing.

 

[b.c.]

^ The above is predicated upon the assumption that the "investigation" will or ever could deliver something of enough substance that Republicans will decide to push Trump away from them. And as I said, that could only occur when, IF, support of Trump becomes a liability to them among their OWN CONSTITUENCY. Democratic and independent voters? They don't GIVE a flying about us. Besides, one can't quite compare Trump to Nixon. I mean, REALLY, how much more scandalous can Trump GET?

He's stood before them and mocked a disabled guy and they ate it up. Talked about how he'd like to punch a guy in the mouth and how he could shoot someone and not lose support, and they roared their approval. He spoke about Mexican immigrants as criminals and rapists and told them how he'd build a wall and make Mexico pay for it, and they loved it and bought it, lock stock and barrel. He told them how he was going to ban Muslims from entering the country, doubled down on calling a woman Miss Piggy... they saw and heard him beg Russia to hack American servers, and brag about "grabbing women by the pussy" and they ENJOYED every minute of it, like a circus spectacle. They've bought into his every lie about how 3 million voted illegally against him and how Democrats were going to "rig the system" against him.

And that's not the HALF of it.

And we think THEY, his voters, defenders, and supporters, are going to turn against him even with PROOF of conspiracy with Russians to alter the election?? Fat chance.

Again that gives them too much credit for being able to discern impropriety from propriety, the latter of which they mock and ridicule as "political correctness" and false issues put forth by who they DERISIVELY call "social justice warriors" and "snowflakes."

Similar to the kind of bullshit theory put forth by some of them for the purpose of rationalizing their mentality, that we, liberals and/or Democrats, MADE them what they ARE. That we "drove them" into the arms of a fascist ideology.

That too is pure BULLSHIT.

I've said time and time again that one can't be accepting of the kinds of thoughts Trump campaigned on unless one is already predisposed to that kind of thought... of that particular MINDSET. I've also said there is no logical reasoning with people who think that way. Therefore, expecting the logical FROM them, pointless.

Here's a rather interesting piece that supports this:

Think respectful dialogue works with conservatives, and will bring Trump voters around? Think again.

 

[deleted116951]

I think Trump supporters fall into one of three camps:

1. Essentially people just as hate filled as Trump who saw his Presidency as legitimizing their bigoted world view. These people will support Trump regardless of the outcome.

2. People who voted for him because they hate Washington as a whole - "Buncha corrupt politicians!" These people could flip on him based on the investigation. Call me an optimist but I think treason against the US is a little bit worse than the swamp. I could be wrong...

3. People who voted for him because he wasn't Hilary. I think honestly these people will be the first to flip if they haven't already started to due to his rampant lies and unhinged behavior.

Are these groups mutually exclusive? No. Somebody could be a little bit of one and a little bit of the other. Its the exact ratio of these types of voter that'll determine how the constituency as a whole pressures Republicans to either drump or not.

It really is ridiculous that we even have to debate the possibility of a large part of the nation supporting a president who could be tied to Russia yet here we are! Good times...

 

[b.c.]

You're entitled to your opinion. And here's mine: Trump supporters fall into one of TWO camps.

1. That basket of deplorables who fit your category 1, and who voted for Trump because of his and their own bigoted world view.

2. That basket of deplorables who voted for him IN SPITE OF number one. These are the ones who some here expect hold a higher degree of integrity and good judgement than what they've ALREADY shown to be sorely LACKING.

Voted for Trump because he wasn't Hillary?

Yeah, meaning they voted for the womanizing bigot demagogue who ran a campaign of hate instead of the WOMAN who knew what she was talking about. Let's not sugarcoat what this was all about.

Her handling of emails, that Benghazi nonsense, the alleged dealings of the Clinton Foundation, all bullshit issues conjured up by conservatives, Republicans, Russians, Breitbart, Assange, Wikileaks, etc. to discredit the liberal WOMAN for doing far LESS questionable shit than what the conservative white man (Trump) got AWAY and GETS away with doing ... as USUAL.

 

[halcyondays]

Trump's dealings with people associated with the Iranian Revolutionary Guard--a designated terrorist group--when building a hotel in Baku, Azerbaijan will be his downfall.

 

[deleted116951]

You're entitled to your opinion. And here's mine: Trump supporters fall into one of TWO camps.

1. That basket of deplorables who fit your category 1, and who voted for Trump because of his and their own bigoted world view.

2. That basket of deplorables who voted for him IN SPITE OF number one. These are the ones who some here expect hold a higher degree of integrity and good judgement than what they've ALREADY shown to be sorely LACKING.

Voted for Trump because he wasn't Hillary?

Yeah, meaning they voted for the womanizing bigot demagogue who ran a campaign of hate instead of the WOMAN who knew what she was talking about. Let's not sugarcoat what this was all about.

Her handling of emails, that Benghazi nonsense, the alleged dealings of the Clinton Foundation, all bullshit issues conjured up by conservatives, Republicans, Russians, Breitbart, Assange, Wikileaks, etc. to discredit the liberal WOMAN for doing far LESS questionable shit than what the conservative white man (Trump) got AWAY and GETS away with doing ... as USUAL.

Not often my view of Trump supporters is actually the more optimistic one! But I definitely see where you're coming from.

 

[185248]

Beginning of the end?? A huge instability started in Europe after the plague. It took centuries for the world...Europe, to regain stability after losing so many. Then...along came the wars claiming millions, a short 70 to 100 years ago.

In case any one is wondering, stability has never resurfaced. Short bursts of economic or technological gain, does not compensate with losing millions. Just like regional earthquakes, storms, hurricanes or any other cause. It takes years, many years before society in those regions recover.

Beginning of the end? It started a hundred years ago. Because we never recovered from the first war. Except if you are a country of Billions.

Tell me, how long does a civilization need to be here before it reaches a population of 2 billion?

A long time. And that is through war, famine and revolution. You guys really need to think of priorities.

A society that has a regime which controls it's people through community spies, a regime who wishes to keep control through ignorance, a society who wishes to expand, and has expanded throughout the world for the past 600 years.

We here would have no idea who is a spy of the Chinese government. Why, because it is absolutely impossible to keep track of. And, one thing we know. China does not make plans days, week, or months before. These guys make plans years and years ahead.

 

[Industrialsize]

Beginning of the end?? A huge instability started in Europe after the plague. It took centuries for the world...Europe, to regain stability after losing so many. Then...along came the wars claiming millions, a short 70 to 100 years ago.

In case any one is wondering, stability has never resurfaced. Short bursts of economic or technological gain, does not compensate with losing millions. Just like regional earthquakes, storms, hurricanes or any other cause. It takes years, many years before society in those regions recover.

Beginning of the end? It started a hundred years ago. Because we never recovered from the first war. Except if you are a country of Billions.

Tell me, how long does a civilization need to be here before it reaches a population of 2 billion?

A long time. And that is through war, famine and revolution. You guys really need to think of priorities.

A society that has a regime which controls it's people through community spies, a regime who wishes to keep control through ignorance, a society who wishes to expand, and has expanded throughout the world for the past 600 years.

We here would have no idea who is a spy of the Chinese government. Why, because it is absolutely impossible to keep track of. And, one thing we know. China does not make plans days, week, or months before. These guys make plans years and years ahead.

The thread is about the end of the Trump Presidency, not civilization.

 

[185248]

Trump's dealings with people associated with the Iranian Revolutionary Guard--a designated terrorist group--when building a hotel in Baku, Azerbaijan will be his downfall.

Trump, Trump himself, his mouth will be the biggest hole he will fall in to. For some reason these days when I here Donald trump in the news, I automatically think of black holes.

 

[185248]

The thread is about the end of the Trump Presidency, not civilization.

Well, we are a quarter the way there You have your version of the end, I have mine. I suggest if my ending is different to yours, you change channels.