Coming out

[earllogjam]

It is quite an accomplishment for Gay Liberation when straight people come out and openly think coming out and being gay is not such a big deal. Thanks Hammer, I had to step back to see the bigger picture.

I realize that we don't get to wear other peoples shoes and I could never expect you to know what it is to be gay or in the closet. Just as I will never know what it truly feels like to be a woman or a straight man in this society. But your question opens the door to some introspection.

Many of my close straight friends share your view. To them my being gay is not a big thing; they are fully accepting and have no hidden weirdness about my sexuality. People get to know me as a gay friend and have a personal realization that all those stereotypes and prejudices are unfounded so they begin to question and reject all the negative and mean spirited views against gay people. My being out is changing the world of acceptance for generations of younger gays to come, one person at a time. This is happening multifold everwhere here in the US as more of us become visible. It is easier now to come out than in the 50's because of the gay liberation pioneers and open men who have come before me and who's shoulders we all stand on but we are still not there yet. Being gay is still a stigma in America.

Much has happened in the last 30 years to normalize the perception of gay people as "normal" especially in the media. We no longer are portrayed as deviant tragic pathetic psychopaths but as actual human beings. Most movies these days have at least one gay character, and people like Rosie O'Donnell, Ellen Degeneres, Will & Grace have bought us from the darkness into the mainstream - all well and good for Gay Liberation and acceptance.

But coming out will always remain a difficult personal decision as long as being gay is percieved as a social stigma. Everyone is different here. Some can come out relatively easy because they have a support structure in place, but many gay men also carry society's homophobia simply because we were raised with a hetrosexual model of society where we have no place which makes coming out difficult. I am only selectively out to certain people. I have lost friends because of my gayness and I know doors have closed automatically especially in corporate America for me. My family has accepted my gayness reluctantly and my being out has caused a significant uneasyness in our relationship. So there is a definite cost to being out which every gay man needs to evaluate for himself.

Is the need to be honest with yourself greater than the negative ramifications and your existing relationship with others? For me yes... Took me a while but yes. People who are not gay cannot imagine how gut wrenching a process coming out is. Your life as you know it may disappear or be uprooted emotionally, financially, loss of family and close friends. You are venturing into the unknown and that is always scarry.

Living an honest life is denied as a gay man. It is a freedom that every straight person takes for granted. You need to be guarded and hide the core of who you really are and end up lying to yourself and others to one degree or another which just eats away at your soul. It is a basic human need to be accepted and live honestly as our true selves. It's probably why gay communities have thrived and why we are so adamant about becoming equal members of society and have a place at the table.

 

[Matthew]

Actually Matthew I'm not straight, my longest relationship has been with a woman I said primarily straight because more of my relationships have been with men, but my best friend and I have been having sex for longer than we'd both care to remember.

Interesting - why then do you decide to put 100% straight if you're not?

And it still gives me pause that someone as gay-positive as you are doesn't see how profoundly different the question of open sexual orientation is for queers.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I don't mean to bash you for your original statement. You only said "I don't see why," which I took as an honest statement about yourself and your worldview.

 

[lesmeljos]

One of the best t-shirts I ever saw had a wonderful message: "Heterosexuality in not necessarily 'normal; it's simply more common"

 

[SpoiledPrincess]

I put straight because I was getting a lot of pm's from women, and that wasn't why I joined this site.

 

[fortiesfun]

If I'm not having sex with someone their sexuality doesn't affect me therefore I don't really need to know about it. Someone's sexuality is the business of themselves and whoever they're fucking/hoping to fuck.

I think some of the misunderstanding about this post stems from confusing sexuality with sexual orientation and identity. The fact is, if I'm not sleeping with you, you don't need to know my preference for oral over anal, desired length of foreplay, interest or lack of in leather, etc.

But sexual identity is bigger than that. It is a world view, a legal status, and a familial relationship. The dimensions of it go so far beyond the bedroom it is astonishing.

Here is just one example, which I've written about elsewhere, to remind you why it isn't a private matter: My university participated in a blood drive, and set up awards for the division with the highest percentage of participation. You may know, as a man who has had sex with another man since 1978, I am not eligible to give blood no matter how clean it is. Someone who meant well but assumed I didn't want to participate because I was scared thought she could shame me into giving blood, thus giving our division 100% participation, by confronting me in a division meeting about it. I ended up coming out in front of about 50 of my closest friends and colleagues as a result of it. No one in the room had to explain that they could give blood because they are hetero. My point: there are way too many places in the world where it doesn't cut both ways to suggest that one's sexuality is just between you and your lovers.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Doc, I had forgotten about that anecdote, thank you for sharing it with us again. It's a much better example than those I posted earlier.

 

[Lex]

I think some of the misunderstanding about this post stems from confusing sexuality with sexual orientation and identity. The fact is, if I'm not sleeping with you, you don't need to know my preference for oral over anal, desired length of foreplay, interest or lack of in leather, etc.

But sexual identity is bigger than that. It is a world view, a legal status, and a familial relationship. The dimensions of it go so far beyond the bedroom it is astonishing.

Here is just one example, which I've written about elsewhere, to remind you why it isn't a private matter: My university participated in a blood drive, and set up awards for the division with the highest percentage of participation. You may know, as a man who has had sex with another man since 1978, I am not eligible to give blood no matter how clean it is. Someone who meant well but assumed I didn't want to participate because I was scared thought she could shame me into giving blood, thus giving our division 100% participation, by confronting me in a division meeting about it. I ended up coming out in front of about 50 of my closest friends and colleagues as a result of it. No one in the room had to explain that they could give blood because they are hetero. My point: there are way too many places in the world where it doesn't cut both ways to suggest that one's sexuality is just between you and your lovers.

I second DC's post. This is a great example of how and when orientation goes far beyond sex.

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Here is just one example, which I've written about elsewhere, to remind you why it isn't a private matter: My university participated in a blood drive, and set up awards for the division with the highest percentage of participation. You may know, as a man who has had sex with another man since 1978, I am not eligible to give blood no matter how clean it is. Someone who meant well but assumed I didn't want to participate because I was scared thought she could shame me into giving blood, thus giving our division 100% participation, by confronting me in a division meeting about it. I ended up coming out in front of about 50 of my closest friends and colleagues as a result of it. No one in the room had to explain that they could give blood because they are hetero. My point: there are way too many places in the world where it doesn't cut both ways to suggest that one's sexuality is just between you and your lovers.

Shit! I never knew that. That is fucked up.

When did this take place? Has the rule changed since?

 

[Lex]

Shit! I never knew that. That is fucked up.

When did this take place? Has the rule changed since?

These rules have been in place for decades and won't be changing anytime soon. It's a shame, too, as the Red Cross continues to get fined for not adequately screening the blood supply, anyway.

Guys who are gay can not give blood regardless of their current HIV- status (even if they have ben negative for years and years).

I am Type O too. I could save a lot of lives.

I can gurantee that my blood is cleaner than that of a lot to women who are having unprotected sex with closeted men and do not know it.

 

[fortiesfun]

Shit! I never knew that. That is fucked up.

When did this take place? Has the rule changed since?

This was some time ago, but the rule has not changed, and as Lex says, is not likely to do so anytime soon. At this point, it is not the cleanliness of the blood supply but the political consequences of recognizing HIV as an equal opportunity disease that holds things back.

 

[Matthew]

I was forced out of the closet. Got too crowded with all the skeletons.

I put straight because I was getting a lot of pm's from women, and that wasn't why I joined this site.

Wow -- I thought I knew all the freaky details of this site. Do you think they were all really women?

 

[biguy2738]

I think some of the misunderstanding about this post stems from confusing sexuality with sexual orientation and identity. The fact is, if I'm not sleeping with you, you don't need to know my preference for oral over anal, desired length of foreplay, interest or lack of in leather, etc.

* Fans himself *

 

[SpoiledPrincess]

Of course they weren't matthew but I joined this site to interact with hung guys not guys having an identity crisis. There are probably quite a few women on here who get pm's from people purporting to be women. The net's a mixed up world.

 

[fortiesfun]

* Fans himself *

Just this once you may have missed my point. More accurately, just this once that wasn't actually my point...

 

[NCbear]

I think some of the misunderstanding about this post stems from confusing sexuality with sexual orientation and identity. The fact is, if I'm not sleeping with you, you don't need to know my preference for oral over anal, desired length of foreplay, interest or lack of in leather, etc.

But sexual identity is bigger than that. It is a world view, a legal status, and a familial relationship. The dimensions of it go so far beyond the bedroom it is astonishing.

Here is just one example, which I've written about elsewhere, to remind you why it isn't a private matter: My university participated in a blood drive, and set up awards for the division with the highest percentage of participation. You may know, as a man who has had sex with another man since 1978, I am not eligible to give blood no matter how clean it is. Someone who meant well but assumed I didn't want to participate because I was scared thought she could shame me into giving blood, thus giving our division 100% participation, by confronting me in a division meeting about it. I ended up coming out in front of about 50 of my closest friends and colleagues as a result of it. No one in the room had to explain that they could give blood because they are hetero. My point: there are way too many places in the world where it doesn't cut both ways to suggest that one's sexuality is just between you and your lovers.

Absolutely. All this bullshit about who's a top and who's a bottom is (as it should be) intensely private.

But who you marry, and live with, and raise children with, and grow old with -- now that's a rather public act. And it's constrained by some laws that, at least in most states in this country, are rather behind the times.

Fortiesfun, I've had to have the "I'm not allowed to give blood" discussion with coworkers. I've also had to have the "I can't get married in this country" discussion and the "I used 'significant other' because it was gender-neutral" discussion. I know exactly what you're talking about.

Yes, HappyHammer (LOVE your screen name, by the way!), the ideal world should contain people who say, "So, are you dating anyone?" without regard to gender. The ideal world should have parents who don't have conniptions when their children say, "I'm gay [or lesbian or transgender or ...]."

But a lot of otherwise sane people go just the slightest bit bonkers when they think of homosexuality.

NCbear (who admires the patience, fortitude and warmheartedness that Fortiesfun, Lex, and Earllogjam display in every post)

 

[B_HappyHammer1977]

Yes, HappyHammer (LOVE your screen name, by the way!), the ideal world should contain people who say, "So, are you dating anyone?" without regard to gender. The ideal world should have parents who don't have conniptions when their children say, "I'm gay [or lesbian or transgender or ...]."
quote]

I'm afraid I'm a bit of an idealist. I'm making the effort to get my head out of the clouds (for a while!) and see what life is really like.

"If you don't know your past, you don't know your future"

In order to improve your world you have to know your world.

 

[GoneA]

My view is this; at the age of 16 I didn't feel the need to approach my parents and say "Mum, dad...I'm straight."

But when gay men and women approach their parents and say "Mum, dad ... I'm gay" it's suddenly a big deal.

Now, why do you suppose that?

 

[biguy2738]

This has been quite a heavy thread - filled with a lot of real, raw emotion. It has served as an eye opener and a challenge. A challenge for me to once again look at the unecessary plight and suffering brought on through the prejudice and narrow mindedness of another...to formulate my own answers to the question "WHY? - Why do people find it so necessary to inflict such heartache to someone being true to who they are?" and then there's the question "HOW? - How are we able to learn and grow from what has been shared in this thread?"

I don't think I have quite found most of the answers, but I do have some responses to things that have been raised in this thread:

Firstly, HH was confronted by a lot of anger and frustration in response to his (and forgive me for saying this dude!) ignorance...and by saying this, I do not profess that I have not been ignorant in my own way. I though I have been aware of the difficulties involved with coming out, I most certainly have been ignorant to the everyday experiences and pain associated with it. I see a need to not only thank HH, but to applaud him for starting this thread. Though to some extent his ignorance may have given him the courage to start it, all the same a great amount of good and learning has arisen from it.

Secondly, it was voiced that he should have found other threads or done searches on the internet before I had started this thread. Indeed, he may have found the information, but WE most certainly would not have had the privilege to actually experience the raw emotion and heartache associated with coming out. Everybody that posted made it possible to be able to wear your shoes and experience all the difficulty and heartache that you have been forced to endure because you chose to embrace yourself for who you are...and claimed you entitlement that those around you embrace and accept you to....and how so often those people have fallen short of giving you what you so rightly deserve. For that, I thank you. I thank you for bearing your souls and laying yourselves open to the risk of opening old wounds, experiencing old hurts and making yourselves vulnerable and open to our scrutiny. There are no words to experience the gratitude that lies in my heart.

Thirdly, PLEASE DON'T GIVE UP ON US?!!!! (By "us" I speak of heterosexual and hetero"flexible" people) There are some that don't want to get it, but there are some of us that truly are TRYING to get it...yet so often we fall short of getting it right! Though it may be painful and frustrating to either encounter our ignorance or another thread about the same old topic, please be patient with us. Please allow those moments to become an area of meeting, sharing and education. The intensity of the emotion in this thread is an indication of just how much sharing and education is still needed in order for us to "get it". Please, lets continue talking?....

Fourthly, and it builds on the previous point, at times our ignorance comes from a great sense of inadequacy or "reverse homophobia" for lack of a better term. I realised that though I wasn't homophobic when I first became a member, I actually was.... What I mean by that is though I accept you for who you are and approach all sexual orientations with no prejudice...there was a deep seated awareness within myself of the amount of pain you have had to endure, and with it came (and still does) a tremendous and at times an overwhelming sense of fear that through my own inadequacy to fully grasp and understand all dimensions and experiences associated with homosexuality, I am at risk of inflicting pain upon you. The reason why I credit HH so much, is because if I had those questions when I had first joined, I most certainly would not have given them a voice...and most probably have kept a low profile and deep sharing with homosexual people out of my fear of causing offense or inflicting pain. The only reason why I have outgrown that fear and been able to go so far as present myself as the biggest homosexual slut on this planet (well, next to Doc, of course!), to be able to make homosexual wise cracks and use humour in quite a bit of my posts, is largely attributed to invisibleman. We have grown very close, and communicate via pm and email virtually daily...the gist of most of my posts, is the gist of our communications and it was made possible because he dared to go there. I most certainly wouldn't, I doubt that I would have even raised any discussion about homosexuality with him (sorry bro') for fear of inflicting hurt - there has been enough suffering and like hell do I want to inflict more! Thank you invisibleman, because if it wasn't for you, I don't think that my post count would have even been on 100!

Fifthly, and building on the previous point, at times we offend you by over compensating...forgive us. Please bear in mind that we come from a place of care and we truly are trying. I say this because from my own experience, there have been times where I have started to forge friendships on this site with homosexual members...and I try so hard to let them know that they are accepted, that I am left with a sense that in the process I have offended them and scared them away.... A conclusion drawn by pm's not being responded to. Though you are most certainly the victims and deserve great leeway, for the sake of forging something that can be of benefit to both you and me, please take the time to ask if the offense was in any way deliberate.

Finally, yes, to a great extent we aren't getting it. As sad and as difficult as it is to admit, it is true. Even more sad, is the fact that the people that are trying so hard to get it (and get it so wrong at the best of times!) make up a minority. Yet in the midst of it all, we have our own struggles associated with homosexuality. We are trying to bend our minds around very complex issues that involve human emotions, psychological health and societal (and dare I add religious) acceptance. We are trying to break through brainwashing that we have encountered by our families, schools, religions, communities and societies...and while dealing with this, there's still the need to try to put oneself in the shoes of the gay community as well as those of the gay family member, friend, colleague...and even LPSG member. At times there really is an overwhelming amount of information and emotions to process and digest...and file away in the correct place.

Above all else, I think that I speak for other heterosexual/flexible people when I say: FORGIVE US!!!!

 

[Lex]

We could never give up on those who empathize and try to see beyond themselves. BigGuy-- you have been a wonderful addition to the LPSG family.

 

[Matthew]

Thanks, biguy. Speaking for myself, I always appreciate it when someone is trying to be an ally or even just honestly trying to understand. Gay/bi folks can't expect others to "get it" automatically. It's just a fact that you can't always see things through the perspective of someone else's experience.

Because, after all, the same holds true for us too. I don't automatically see things, for example, from the perspective of a woman and/or a racial minority -- although I often can, IF I make the effort to listen and be open (and let me just say I've had my worldview shifted more than a few times by doing that, ha ha). So that's all I can ask or expect of anyone in relation to me. And how could I hold "one strike" against someone? I sure ain't perfect.

There are definitely a lot of people at LPSG who are homophobic from slightly to severely. For every comment I bark at, there are 10 more where I just say "ah, fuck it" and let it go. Sometimes it does wear on me personally. But the reason I stick around, in addition to my queer brethren, ha ha, is because there are also a lot of extremely cool and supportive straight folk (as well as "heteroflexible" folk ;>). Maybe in a perfect world that would be considered unremarkable, but in this world it is a shining example. So thank you all.