Compare Israel to the Islamic radicals

[Wyldgusechaz]

It is supposed that Israel has the atomic bomb. They have never tested one, but they have the weapons grade fuel and the know how to make an atomic bomb. We assume they have one or more.

They have never used the bomb, but I assume if they were pressed to the end, they could use it. Contrast that with any of the Islamic radical organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran. Does anyone here really think that if the jihadists had the means to deliver and detonate an atomic bomb in Tel Aviv or New York, they would hesitate to use it?

What would bring more Islamic adulation to a man like Ahdiemajad (sp?)? Being known as the man who brought lasting peace to the Middle East or the man who destroyed Israel? We already have examples in reality that tell us what would occur. Anwar Sadat negotiatied a peace for Egypt and was assasinated. Islamic Jihadists bombed New York using planes as bombs and were exalted through out radical Islam (Is there any other kind? lately) as warrrior gods and heroes. Does anyone doubt that had they nuclear capability they would have hesitated to detonate the bomb in Central Park? To make it real, you are a gay man in New York, enjoying a night out at a club, and you and all your friends are incinerated just because you are an American. If you don't think that can happen, you are dreaming in technicolor.

There is the difference between Radical Islam and democratic Israel.

 

[dong20]

If you don't think that can happen, you are dreaming in technicolor.

If you believe Iran is the 'west's' biggest threat in the short to medium term, then you are the one dreaming, and seemingly in Black & White.

There is the difference between Radical Islam and democratic Israel.

There is the difference between trite, ill informed, xenophobic rhetoric and informed opinion. ^^^

 

[tripod]

Israel currently has around 150 nuclear weapons.

I guess you have forgotten about Yitzhak Rabin who was assassinated by an Orthodox Jew who did not want peace with the Palestinians. Rabin was viewed as a national symbol and came to embody the Israeli peace camp side, despite his militaristic views earlier in life. It is a shame that Israel has completely forgotten about him and his work, especially his efforts in Oslo.

America overthrew Iran in 1954 and installed the Shah who ruled as a cruel and ruthless despot. The Shah of Iran's secret police the SAVAK was as bloodthirsty and ruthless as an institution ever was. SAVAK was responsible for the torture and exectution of fucking THOUSANDS of the Shah's opponents. A list of SAVAK torture methods included "electric shock, whipping, beating, inserting broken glass and pouring boiling water into the rectum, tying weights to the testicles, and the extraction of teeth and nails." According to a former CIA analyst on Iran Jesse J. Leaf, SAVAK was trained in torture techniques by the guess who? The CIA!!!! According to Leaf, after the 1979 revolution, a CIA film was found which had been made for SAVAK security forces on how to torture women.

The Iranian people could finally take no more of the Shah and his authoritarian way of rule and finally overthrew him.

You should also know that the Chicago outfit (mafia) was operating very lucrative casinos in Iran making hundreds of thousand dollars a day. The Shah of Iran was very close to Jewish gangsters Meyer Lansky and Hy Larner. Hy Larner and Meyer Lansky were tight with the CIA, co-running an exporting business in Miami that ran guns to Israel and brought drugs up from South America.

The United States was propping up the Shah in a puppet regime that had absolutely no support among the Iranian people. How fucking long was that gonna last? It went on way too long and the Iranian people deserved to have their country run by elected rulers.

Operation Ajax, which was the CIA's operative name for the coup which overthrew the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED leader of Iran who was a good leader and a progressive, installed the despodic Shah much to the discontent of the Iranian people.

Mossadeq was a very good leader and would have brought Iran into the technology age and up to speed with the rest of the world.

The Islamic Revolution that took place was inevitable and regretable, but understandable that the hard line Islamic Iranians were gathering strength and support due to the brutal tactics of the Shah.

It is what the intelligence community calls BLOWBACK.

I just saw that you threw out the president of Iran's name Ahmedinajamaicin'mecrazy and thought that you should know why the Iranian's burn U.S. flags to this very day. They will NEVER forget the CIA overthrow of their democratically elected government and they have EVERY right to be angry, because America has NEVER apologized for this.

Instead we cozied up to a ruthless killer named Saddam Hussein and propped him up as our puppet regime in the Middle East. We also gave him money and support that he attacked Iran with, waging a war that took the lives of a MILLION Iranians! All because we were pissed off that our boy Shah was ousted.

Should there be one person in Iran that still likes the United States after all of that shit?

 

[faceking]

We assume they have one or more.

We do? Who is we?

They have never used the bomb, but I assume if they were pressed to the end, they could use it. Contrast that with any of the Islamic radical organizations like Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran.

The assumption you are making is drawn on equal "final alternatives"... when rockets and bombs are parading on American soil, we probably would resort to "The Bomb". Islamic extremist, or pretty a "large minority" of Middle East Arabic nations consider a final alternative as "mad at Israel, because the land they gave wasn't enough, and a few sortes responding to missle attacks" constitutes WWIII.

Islamic Jihadists bombed New York using planes as bombs and were exalted through out radical Islam (Is there any other kind? lately)

Kudos on that.

To make it real, you are a gay man in New York, enjoying a night out at a club, and you and all your friends are incinerated just because you are an American. If you don't think that can happen, you are dreaming in technicolor.

Let's make it more real... you are a gay man in Tehran or Damascus...





end of story.

There is the difference between Radical Islam and democratic Israel.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

Israel currently has around 150 nuclear weapons.

I guess you have forgotten about Yitzhak Rabin who was assassinated by an Orthodox Jew who did not want peace with the Palestinians. Rabin was viewed as a national symbol and came to embody the Israeli peace camp side, despite his militaristic views earlier in life. It is a shame that Israel has completely forgotten about him and his work, especially his efforts in Oslo.

America overthrew Iran in 1954 and installed the Shah who ruled as a cruel and ruthless despot. The Shah of Iran's secret police the SAVAK was as bloodthirsty and ruthless as an institution ever was. SAVAK was responsible for the torture and exectution of fucking THOUSANDS of the Shah's opponents. A list of SAVAK torture methods included "electric shock, whipping, beating, inserting broken glass and pouring boiling water into the rectum, tying weights to the testicles, and the extraction of teeth and nails." According to a former CIA analyst on Iran Jesse J. Leaf, SAVAK was trained in torture techniques by the guess who? The CIA!!!! According to Leaf, after the 1979 revolution, a CIA film was found which had been made for SAVAK security forces on how to torture women.

The Iranian people could finally take no more of the Shah and his authoritarian way of rule and finally overthrew him.

You should also know that the Chicago outfit (mafia) was operating very lucrative casinos in Iran making hundreds of thousand dollars a day. The Shah of Iran was very close to Jewish gangsters Meyer Lansky and Hy Larner. Hy Larner and Meyer Lansky were tight with the CIA, co-running an exporting business in Miami that ran guns to Israel and brought drugs up from South America.

The United States was propping up the Shah in a puppet regime that had absolutely no support among the Iranian people. How fucking long was that gonna last? It went on way too long and the Iranian people deserved to have their country run by elected rulers.

Operation Ajax, which was the CIA's operative name for the coup which overthrew the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED leader of Iran who was a good leader and a progressive, installed the despodic Shah much to the discontent of the Iranian people.

Mossadeq was a very good leader and would have brought Iran into the technology age and up to speed with the rest of the world.

The Islamic Revolution that took place was inevitable and regretable, but understandable that the hard line Islamic Iranians were gathering strength and support due to the brutal tactics of the Shah.

It is what the intelligence community calls BLOWBACK.

I just saw that you threw out the president of Iran's name Ahmedinajamaicin'mecrazy and thought that you should know why the Iranian's burn U.S. flags to this very day. They will NEVER forget the CIA overthrow of their democratically elected government and they have EVERY right to be angry, because America has NEVER apologized for this.

Instead we cozied up to a ruthless killer named Saddam Hussein and propped him up as our puppet regime in the Middle East. We also gave him money and support that he attacked Iran with, waging a war that took the lives of a MILLION Iranians! All because we were pissed off that our boy Shah was ousted.

Should there be one person in Iran that still likes the United States after all of that shit?

I know more of Iran that you might suspect. I dated one of THE hottest Persian women ever a couple years ago, a s5'10" supermodel if ever there was one, and we always discussed Iran.

The average Iranian is very pro western. They love the West. Not sure if they love america but they do love our lifestyles and our freedoms. Iranians are sharp ecucated people.

 

[tripod]

I know more of Iran that you might suspect. I dated one of THE hottest Persian women ever a couple years ago, a s5'10" supermodel if ever there was one, and we always discussed Iran.

The average Iranian is very pro western. They love the West. Not sure if they love america but they do love our lifestyles and our freedoms. Iranians are sharp ecucated people.

Dude... you are soooooo right. Persian women are among the world's most beautiful and amazing women. Iranians just need to reform the shit out of their government and I am hopeful that Obama's presidency will strengthen the moderates and progressives. The rhetoric and threats coming from Israel and the U.S. have only strengthened the hardline radicals, effectively sidelining the reformers. But you know all of that shit...

Diplomacy is no joke and the carrot and stick simplicity of the Bush administration and Clinton's to a certain degree were detrimental to relations with Iran. In my opinion, Iran could be a strong ally against Al Queda and Sunni fundamentalism.

Iran should be our friend... the young people are desperate for it.

 

[Elmer Gantry]

Does anyone doubt that had they nuclear capability they would have hesitated to detonate the bomb in Central Park? To make it real, you are a gay man in New York, enjoying a night out at a club, and you and all your friends are incinerated just because you are an American. If you don't think that can happen, you are dreaming in technicolor.

And anyone who believes that yuo can detonate "the bomb" in the middle of NYC has been reading far too many Tom Clancy novels.

Even a low yield bomb would struggle to fit in the trunk of a large sedan. They are not small devices, nor are they the sort of thing that you trigger with the push of one button.

 

[Elmer Gantry]

The average Iranian is very pro western. They love the West. Not sure if they love america but they do love our lifestyles and our freedoms. Iranians are sharp ecucated people.

And are still pissed off that their shot at democracy was perverted by the West and led to the rise of Islamic fundamentalism we have in that country today.

These events date back to pre cable news channel days so I don't expect many to remember it.

 

[Jason]

A real threat to Britain is a nuclear weapon being brought into the country in a van and detonated say in London.

We have open borders with EU countries (and a few more). For the UK there is nothing quite like the US idea of the frontier. Our customs people are as likely to be working on the streets of Britain or somewhere in the EU as at one of the ports, and most vehicles and people stream through with minimal or no checks. The EU has an enormous border. It is porous. Once in, if you drove a van from the eastern frontier of Europe to London the probability is that you would not be stopped and searched.

The idea of a regime such as Iran (or terrorists within Iran) or a group such as Hamas having a nuclear bomb is terrifying. There are a lot of vehicles crosing the border from Iran to Turkey, and a lot from Turkey to Greece (which is EU).

 

[dong20]

And are still pissed off that their shot at democracy was perverted by the West and led to the rise of Islamic fundamentalism we have in that country today.

These events date back to pre cable news channel days so I don't expect many to remember it.

And, as a 7 year old, you paid rapt and comprehending attention to these events, right? But of course you're referring further back to the Western meddling that lead to the installation of that regime with the ousting of Mossadeqh, well few here (and neither you nor I) were yet alive to witness it, so the lack of cable news seems somehow irrelevant.

Iranians have had a pretty raw deal since '53, loosing a nascent democracy at the hands of a puppet Shah, then bludgeoned into submission by the blunt instrument that was Khomeini. They have good reason to be pissed off.

Those who would advocate armed US intervention in Iran would be advised to pause a moment to remind themselves that as in so many cases, the US screwed it up the first time - so what makes them think the second bite at the cherry will be any sweeter, or more ... oily.

Call me cynical, or even conspiratorial and I'm thinking of Maryam and Massoud Rajavi's (if he's still alive) gang here - but the Sunni-Shiite divide may yet have its day in the sun, doing 'our' dirty work for us.

Same game, different players. Déjà vu anyone?

 

[Maia]

Islamic Jihadists bombed New York using planes as bombs and were exalted through out radical Islam (Is there any other kind? lately)

Please... Take a trip to Dubai, Beirut, or Cairo. Go to a night club on Thursday night. You can even message me for my suggestions on venue. I will need to know if you like gays, prostitutes, or spouse swapping. Then rethink your ideas about all Muslims being radicals lately.

 

[B_Nick4444]

I believe he was clear in referring to radical Islamists

I also believe his comparison fails to encompass Israelis who would not hesitate to use atomic weaponry against Arab men, women and children,

or even takes note of the fact that Israelis have gunned down Arab schoolchildren, and routinely aim the big guns against Arab civilians

 

[Elmer Gantry]

And, as a 7 year old, you paid rapt and comprehending attention to these events, right? But of course you're referring further back to the Western meddling that lead to the installation of that regime with the ousting of Mossadeqh, well few here (and neither you nor I) were yet alive to witness it, so the lack of cable news seems somehow irrelevant.

Iranians have had a pretty raw deal since '53, loosing a nascent democracy at the hands of a puppet Shah, then bludgeoned into submission by the blunt instrument that was Khomeini. They have good reason to be pissed off.

Those who would advocate armed US intervention in Iran would be advised to pause a moment to remind themselves that as in so many cases, the US screwed it up the first time - so what makes them think the second bite at the cherry will be any sweeter, or more ... oily.

Call me cynical, or even conspiratorial and I'm thinking of Maryam and Massoud Rajavi's (if he's still alive) gang here - but the Sunni-Shiite divide may yet have its day in the sun, doing 'our' dirty work for us.

Same game, different players. Déjà vu anyone?

I was referring to the overthrow of Mosadegh by Kermit Roosevelt (what a name) and my reference to cable tv was to highlight the shortsighted revisionism that people employ when considering these issues. I, myself, wasn't even thought of when this mess began and never claimed to be so I deem that irrelevant.

You're correct in the view that why would we let the USA (or any western power) meddle in such affairs when they have a terrible historical record at subverting the democratic process and subjugating nation states.

 

[BIGBULL29]

There is no comparison. Islamic radicals want to rule the world and take down America. Isreal has no such intentions.

If I were surrounded by a zillion of countries with people who hate my people and wish their demise in the snap of a finger, I might act a little excessive, too, particularly if bombs were shot towards me. Let's not mention that more than 6 million of my people were slaughtered around 60 years ago.

Loads of Anti-Semites out there, even among those who pride themselves in being most tolerant.

 

[Elmer Gantry]

And you've been taken hook, line and sinker. Tzipi couldn't have said it better.

 

[faceking]

And are still pissed off that their shot at democracy was perverted by the West and led to the rise of Islamic fundamentalism we have in that country today.

These events date back to pre cable news channel days so I don't expect many to remember it.

You... are making up popular sentiment in a country which (I'll guess) you've never lived in.

My best friend fled Iran with his family when the shiate went down. They return a couple times a year, and I've asked every question under the sun, and have come very close to going with him ... though it's gets more difficult (both gov'ts are a bit paranoid these days). Annnnyways, it's an odd mentality, as it was put right, that they are very "Western" like, but at the same time respect and follow the older conservative government edicts... and it's not so much out of fear (we're spoon fed the stonings and the like... which happen, but is DEFINITELY not the rule of order). It's an interesting culture.

Persian women... I'd put in Top 10 of commonly found beauty. 2nd in the Middle East to Lebanese women.

[it's a board about sex after all.. I can digress to sophomoric levels]

 

[Elmer Gantry]

Yes, the Iranians liked the idea of being a western-style democracy. And then they went and screwed it up by electing a PM who actually thought he was allowed to run the country as if it were owned by the Iranian people.

Oops.

The Shah was reinstated with massive US and western aid (don't forget that BP was originally the Anglo-Persian Oil Co.) and maintained power with an iron fist in th ebest tradition of third world dictators the world over.

After nearly 25 years of this, the Iranian people finally say enough's enough, and the power vacuum is filled with fundamentalism.

Or something like that.