Confessions of a Republican...

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Sklar, Sep 23, 2008.

  1. Sklar

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    General rant here.

    I can't say that I am too pleased with the bank bail outs. Save the predators that allowed the bad loans to go through but when it comes to helping the individual, stab him in the back.

    If I had my way, I'd get all the records of the banks and have the government bail out the people who need the help, not the banks that the people will still have to pay back. No more payments for the individual but let the banks still go under.

    There are plenty of banks out there that seem to be doing well.

    Not too pleased that the government had changed the laws in regards to bankruptcy but allows the credit card companies cart blanche to do what they will.

    Still no immigration policy.

    Bail out one financial company but let another go under. Discrimination? Playing favorites? Which lobbyist pays better? Won't that be a wonderful court case. Somewhere, someone is probably planning that, too.

    Freddie and Fannie? Bail them out too, have congress get millions from the lobbyists and let the individual get stabbed in the back again.

    How many people actually read the mortgage papers when the signed them?

    I can honestly state that if Obama does become President, I will admit that he is the President. No excuses like: He stole the election. If he's elected, he's elected.

    How many people will admit the same thing if McCain is elected? How many right wingers will admit the same about Obama?

    We need term limits.

    We need to find a way to unify the country. Right now, I honestly don't see either side even attempting anything close to unification, let alone bi-partisanship.

    I secretly hope that Cindy Sheehan will trounce Nancy Pelosi.

    Where is Congressional responsibility in this? Why isn't there an investigation into this whole thing? I really do want heads to role on this. Enron was considered illegal and court action was taken. Why is this any different?

    I pay my bills. I make an ok living. Why should I have to be punished for doing the right thing by bailing out the companies/institutions that got us here in the first place???

    Sorry about this, but as I said, it's a general rant...


    Sklar
     
  2. tripod

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    Awesome rant... I too wish that Cindy Sheehan would beat Nancy, 'cause Cindy is a REAL person, not some plastic politician like Nancy. As speaker of the House, she isn't too bad... she needs some more time in her position before I start throwing tomatoes at her though! lol!!

    As a Democrat, I can honestly say that ol' Joe Biden was instrumental in the credit card bankruptcy thing. He is after all, the senator from Delaware which houses Discover Card Services, Chase Manhattan, Bank of America, and American Express! :eek: Something tells me that if the senator from Delaware opposed the credit card companies, he might end up floating in the Delaware river or at the very least be replaced by someone who will. I don't really blame Joe, but I do blame his circumstances and the size of his nutsack though! lol!!!

    All we have to do is freeze the foreclosures and save the little people and the investment banks will be just fine... this is NOT what Bush and Co. want to do though... it is a TOTAL fleecing of the American taxpayer.
     
  3. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    I agree with your post, Tripod. I will take it one step further and say that there is a way to bail out the investment banks and fannie and freddie without the American taxpayer footing the bill. Eliminate the capital gains tax, and funds from the private sector will gobble up those debt securities like you wouldn't believe. When economic stability is restored, leave the 0% capital gains tax alone and liquidity and demand will remain in the financial markets.
     
  4. tripod

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    As a liberal my hair stands up on my neck whenever I hear the word capital gains tax... but I am not a total idealogue. Now how exactly will the excess funds available in the market due to an elimination of the capital gains tax, gobble up the outstanding debt securities? I am curious as to your explanation...
     
  5. B_starinvestor

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    Say a private investor is in the top federal tax bracket - 35%. He/she puts 100K into a CD at 4% - yielding $4,000 in interest income. His/her federal tax liability is $1,400 in federal taxes; making the after-tax return 2.6%.

    That same investor, under a 0% capital gain tax, could purchase $100K of CDO (collateralized Debt Obligations) at a significant discount due to the health of the credit markets. If he/she knew that they could hold the vehicle for a long period of time, and would be rewarded by avoiding any taxes on gains, it would make the vehicle more appealing. After 4 years, say the value on the CDOs increased to $130K, the investor would take the $30K profit free of federal taxes.

    You would see alot of institutional money picking up these vehicles because of the opportunity for significant gains.
     
  6. tripod

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    Jeeze Louise... that sounds risky, but you definitely explained it well. is there not a lot of risk involved? How much capital gains tax does the country take in every year? Is it a significant amount of income? Could we slash the defense budget to pay for it? Could we not suspend the capital gains tax just on those CDOs?
     
  7. B_starinvestor

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    Sure there is risk. But where there is risk, there is opportunity. The risk falls on the private investor; not the taxpayer.

    Per CBO:

    Capital Gains in Revenue Forecasts

    Individual income tax receipts from capital gains realizations normally make up about 4 percent to 7 percent of individual income tax revenues (see Table 1); they are usually between 2 percent and 3 percent of total receipts. Yet they receive a great deal of attention in revenue forecasting. First, they figure significantly in why tax receipts do not move proportionately with the economy. Second, they are volatile and therefore contribute more to changes in total receipts than their size would indicate.
     
  8. transformer_99

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    As for home owners that bought knowing full well they didn't make enough money after taxes to pay their mortgages being bailed out. I say no bailout for them period. The whole real estate mess is about chicken and the egg over which is to blame. First, this nation was in a major recession and needed to be jump started. The current housing debacle did that as property flippers inflated home prices. A lot of those people did that as a career rather than work a regular job. So where did that leave the banks/mortgage companies ? They had to keep pace with the inflation of the real estate market and that led to ARM mortgages, interest only mortgages and nothing down, multiple mortgages (20/80 and 30/70 % mortgages) that allowed unqualified buyers to purchase homes.

    At any rate, those that didn't do a better job of bidding down home prices by actually refusing to pay $ 300+ K for a $ 100K house deserve to be bankrupt and financially ruined today ! I didn't buy a house for that very reason, I knew my meager paycheck wouldn't pay a mortgage and that even with whatever savings I had, it wouldn't be long before I would've defaulted on a mortgage of that magnitude. The people that did buy at absurd prices and have been foreclosed on or in the process of it are like those that buy too much automobile and can't make their car payments. In that case, repossess/take the asset away from them and ruin their credit.

    We all have to be accountable and responsible for our own piece of it. The bail out is a timing thing, those that were foreclosed on already get no salvation, same should hold for those at this point in time. If they can't pay their mortgage that's tough sh*t, just like it's tough sh*t for those of us that didn't commit financial suicide because we don't have a house either ! We're back to those that played by the rules getting screwed for having played by the rules. Those that bent and broke the rules for their advantage, need to suffer the penalty when the effects are to their disadvantage. Does anyone really think any of us that didn't get involved in the madness, like the fact we rented for the better part of the last decade ? My rent went up considerably along the way during that very same time. I want to see as many of those properties on foreclosure & up for auction for $ 30 K and within my reach. I spent the better part of the last decade seeing them at over $ 300 K and out of reach.
     
  9. B_starinvestor

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    Thank you.
     
  10. Notaguru2

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    I'm content to not bail out anything and let it burn to the ground. Let GM & Ford join in. I'm willing to ride this thing out so that our market corrects even though it will be painful for all.

    We can't sustain these banking bailouts. $700B is just the start... then the car mfgs will want money and so on.

    Just let it all correct itself, learn some lessons and pray that history doesn't repeat itself.
     
  11. Phil Ayesho

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    My, what a grand experiment you propose.

    Let's try Another great depression.

    Soup kitchens, bread lines.

    More of the free market idiocy that got us here...

    Let the whole nation suffer. Every man for himself.


    Great sense of civic duty ya got there.
     
  12. Phil Ayesho

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    It is a MYTH that the market "corrects" itself.

    The evidence is plain.... left unregulated, markets boom and bust like a population of lemmings.

    The swings get wilder until something busts so spectacualrly that the whole system crashes.

    The FED was invented to REGULATE interest rates- for the express purpose of AVERAGING out cyclical market swings.

    You guys want a survival of the fittest economy... but that is brutal. In that world, only the ultra rich and ultra ruthless survive at all...

    Society has a function and it not to make any ONE person vastly rich..
    it to provide the best possible life for the maximum number of people.

    It doesn't mean some don't get rich... but it does mean placing some limits on individual avarice where it HARMs the chances of others.

    If you got a few billion... bow the fuck out and let someone else have a try.
    You don't have to have it ALL to yourself.

    Trust me- this is just the beginning... the freer the market gets... the worse the disasters will be.
     
  13. transformer_99

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    And if bail outs and multi-trillion dollar debt/deficits are the rule, why should anyone suffer ? We all should get homes simply because we want and they should be in exclusive communities that become a standard so that a community is no longer considered exclusive. We should all be driving a Mercedes Benz, eating steak and lobster until we're sick of it like we do pasta, ramen noodles, rice and beans. If there are no repercussions to extravagant spending, it needs to apply to all. We all can live like Hugh Hefner and Donald Trump and not feel guilty at all about it.

    There's only one thing wrong about the economy and market correcting itself though. It'll never correct itself because the problems are caused by the greedy thieves and a new bunch crops up at every turn. There was a reason at least one of the Enron guilty committed suicide, yet other reasons why others didn't. What made me ill about the Fastow's specifically, the husband got 6 years (and that was reduced from 10 years) and his POS wife got only 1 year that turned into less.

    Feeling 'Slap in the Face' After Fastow's Sentence - washingtonpost.com

    We're back to accountability and responsibility that these people aren't being held to the fire for.
     
  14. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    You are a human papercut.
     
  15. SpeedoGuy

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    Soooooooo?

    The GOP apologists are going to be confused as to why anyone would consider this a drawback.
     
  16. uniqueusername

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    Probably the only time I've ever agreed with you, and probably the only time you've ever agreed with the right wing of the Republican party. There's an all-out rebellion occurring amongst some Republicans on the floor of the House this week.

    The best thing McCain could possibly do in this situation would be to forcefully oppose the bailout. It would completely separate him from the Bush Administration, make him look like a champion of the people, and steal the economic news cycles from Obama. I'm very unhappy with the wishy-washy way he has handled this.
     
  17. Phil Ayesho

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    Free market MADE this mess

    Free market will NOT fix it.
    Wake up...
    A failed theory of economics is a failed theory of economics.


    The republicans who are agitating to let the chips fall are the same stupid fucks who passed legsilation de-regualting the lending market.

    You really gonna trust THEIR insight?
     
  18. uniqueusername

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    I trust my insight. That's why I don't have any money invested in companies like AIG or Lehman Brothers. I prefer companies that sell products that will always be in demand, like Home Depot, Wal-Mart, or Disney. Those kinds of companies, with tangible resources and employees, are the foundation of our economy. As John McCain said, they are strong.

    I don't trust the government's insight, as many in Congress (again, in both parties) are bought and paid for by the very companies they want to bail out. Those companies should be allowed to fail, so newer, more efficient, less corrupt (and perhaps smaller) companies can take their places.
     
  19. transformer_99

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    Phil, I'm not so sure of who were really bailing out here with these bailouts. I know where I've lived and how frugal I've lived and it's been within my means. Take AIG for example, I could've applied for a job at any one of those types of employers and rarely gotten a rejection letter acknowledging I wasted my time trying for that better job. So in those cases, am I or are we being expected to bail out others that have lived far better than we could've ever imagined our own lives being ?

    As for the fools that committed financial suicide, what do we owe them in a bailout ? They've participated in leveraging the price of buying a home beyond hope of ever owning one. So screw them, they lived in that house far longer than many of us have ever stepped foot in one to be able to consider even making an offer on one.

    I don't mean to come across as heartless or even bitter. But we're all facing trying times, some of us have sacrificed far more than others and to be saddled with the burden of their bailout, it's obvious while these people were taking as much as they could along the way, it doesn't make sense to ask the rest of us for financial aid. This is not Hurricane Katrina, a mudslide, drought fire, an earthquake or even a volcano erupting as a natural disaster/tragedy. This is man made and self inflicted. I don't see any of these people offering to enhance our lives any because it wasn't first class along the way. In fact, I'm pretty certain a lot of these people drove in the same traffic with the rest of us in the latest new cars, while a lot of us struggled to keep 6-10 year old cars roadworthy over the last 8 years and perhaps even longer. To be honest, this crew expects loans that will only result in inflation to us as consumers. Bankruptcy sucks, but these people have to eat that as the risks they took were longshots at best, they were financial hail mary passes that had little or no hope of success. These people would've had a better shot at succeeding in starting up a new business than to pay 3-4 times what those homes were ever worth.

    The real issue is, "When is enough ?, Enough already ?".
     
  20. SpeedoGuy

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    I wrestle with this as well.

    I can only hope that we, as a nation, learn from this and work toward preventing it from happening again. I'm not very hopeful, though.

    Those who viewed the smoldering aftermath of Pearl Harbor probably vowed we should never again slumber unprepared for a major catastrophic attack....
     
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