Conflicted Gay Christians

[invisibleman]

I will say this. There was a time when I was an avid churchgoer. A saved Christian. (I went to a lot of churches when I was in college trying to find the "right" church. I never joined any religion that hated gays or were really, really asking for a lot of money. So. Islam was not a consideration. Some Christian churches were soon checked off for consideration. There was a time I researched The Church of Scientology. THAT WAS TOTALLY NOT HAPPENING. I am so thankful I read DIANETICS...that book pissed me off. If I had gone on to the Church of Scientology based on L.Ron Hubbard's SCIENTOLOGY: The Fundamentals of Thought only...I probably would've joined. I read DIANETICS. THAT book confirmed that I never wanted to be a Scientologist.

I read the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu. And things were falling into place. So my new religion borrows heavily from the Tao Te Ching and The New Testament. :smile:

I want to tell you the moral of all of this. When you are young coming up into the world...you have a lot of ideas, ideals, and notions. You are learning. You are trying to see where you fit in the entire scheme of things. And religion...you get suckered into thinking that your way is the only way. And for some, their way is the only way. And sometimes the way you went...you can't go there again because you have grown out of it. IT doesn't suit you anymore.

So, when I get someone who I feel that is proselytizing and directing me into a religion that I am not interested. I tell them that I respect their choices. But they must respect my declination for their religious beliefs. I am not interested.

When I was young, I had to tell people that. I am not interested. It isn't the end of the world. Just end of the conversation.

Sometimes religion does inhibit the true view of the world. There are people who don't live by a religious creed and they go through good and bad stuff just the same as anyone else if they were in a religion. Does it mean that the one without the religion is a really bad person or a really good person? Does it mean the the one with religion is a really bad person or a really good person?

I think life gives us situations that cannot be put in terms of total good and total evil. I have seen a lot of evil peeps have redeemable qualities. I have seen some really good hearted people do some really evil shit to another person. I think that everyone who is living or who has lived...lived with the best intentions...but they didn't necessarily have the best life or a perfect life.

 

[TomCat84]

I say FUCK the christians. Seriously, literally and figuratively.

I'm mildly offended by that remark, as I consider myself to be a Christian spiritualist.

 

[aetherael]

They can be annoying, but as a former devout Catholic, I can say that their psychology is completely forgivable. It takes tons of time and thought to relearn proper sexuality after an entire childhood of being told that people like you are evil and that sex is bad.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

I'm mildly offended by that remark, as I consider myself to be a Christian spiritualist.

Sorry i live in the Bible belt in the South. I was also raised in a cooky highly religious family and have to constantly remind myself how stupid the whole thing is. Believe what you want. But you shouldn't be offended that someone else has abandoned the idea of Christianity not too long ago.

I've seen it all and heard it all. I'm tired of the judgemental groups who think they are getting some reward in heaven for being assholes everyday to the rest of the planet who aren't like they are.

 

[TomCat84]

Sorry i live in the Bible belt in the South. I was also raised in a cooky highly religious family and have to constantly remind myself how stupid the whole thing is. Believe what you want. But you shouldn't be offended that someone else has abandoned the idea of Christianity not too long ago.

I've seen it all and heard it all. I'm tired of the judgemental groups who think they are getting some reward in heaven for being assholes everyday to the rest of the planet who aren't like they are.

No, don't put words in my mouth. You said "fuck Christians". You made no "buts" about it. I was offended by the blanket slur, not the fact that you have left the faith. I'm happy that you made your own decision about what to believe. :smile:

 

[invisibleman]

It takes tons of time and thought to relearn proper sexuality after an entire childhood of being told that people like you are evil and that sex is bad.

Yep. Everyone has to go their own way.

 

[DiscoBoy]

Great post, invisi.

I read the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu. And things were falling into place. So my new religion borrows heavily from the Tao Te Ching and The New Testament. :smile:

I've always wondered why religious/spiritual people don't simply take the aspects of the religions/beliefs they particularly like and can agree with, and just tailor their own, personal belief. I think it's admirable that you've done that (as well as having looked into other beliefs-- some a little...ridiculous, before coming to where you're at).

I've asked a few religious people this question (in particular, this gay Christian friend of mine that studies theology), and they kind of just looked at me with this bewildered and confused look on their face and basically just told me that it doesn't happen that way. Is there some unwritten rule about mixing and matching beliefs? It makes a lot more sense than just sticking to one.

 

[invisibleman]

Great post, invisi.

I've always wondered why religious/spiritual people don't simply take the aspects of the religions/beliefs they particularly like and can agree with, and just tailor their own, personal belief. I think it's admirable that you've done that (as well as having looked into other beliefs-- some a little...ridiculous, before coming to where you're at).

I've asked a few religious people this question (in particular, this gay Christian friend of mine that studies theology), and they kind of just looked at me with this bewildered and confused look on their face and basically just told me that it doesn't happen that way. Is there some unwritten rule about mixing and matching beliefs? It makes a lot more sense than just sticking to one.

Yeah.

When I was younger, I was never the judgmental type of person anyway. So I was trying to find the right fit spiritually. And it never really felt right for me to tell someone that they were wrong because they did something.

Even though, I have researched a lot of religions. A couple of years ago, I even researched Mormonism. The Matt Damon Elders were sexy and were kinda cruisy...I didn't feel that I was a fit. I happen to love having sex with men. Masturbating. Drinking tea and an occasional Pepsi.

If I were a Mormon...I would have to give up sex with men. Give up masturbation. Give up my caffeine. I couldn't honestly do that. I would be trying to fuck those Matt Damon Elders. So...I told those guys NO. I wasn't interested in Mormonism.

So, while I read the Tao Te Ching, I could relate a lot to the book. And you come to an understanding that everyone has their own way...they have to go through life the way they were meant to. You have to. I have to. Even though, we are all different in the world...we live life how we were meant to.

In life we are supposed to see our challenges in life as opportunities for breaking or embracing them.

"Is there some unwritten rule about mixing and matching beliefs?"--Discoboy

Well, I don't think that it works for all religions. But I just liked the Tao Te Ching and The New Testament. And that is how I approach my spiritual life. I am not perfect.

 

[D_Harry_Crax]

Sorry i live in the Bible belt in the South.

Is anyone as annoyed as I am by the term "Bible Belt"? It seems to suggest that there is just one strip of land in the United States that's packed with fundamentalists and evangelicals. It underestimates their significance and influence, however, if not their actual numbers. It's not really a Bible Belt so much as it is the entire shirt or entire pair of pants: southern Indiana (except Bloomington) east to Virginia, from there down to northern Florida, then west to about Lubbock, north to northwestern Kansas, then east covering most of Missouri, and a good chunk of southern Illinois until you're back in southern Indiana.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

Is anyone as annoyed as I am by the term "Bible Belt"? It seems to suggest that there is just one strip of land in the United States that's packed with fundamentalists and evangelicals. It underestimates their significance and influence, however, if not their actual numbers. It's not really a Bible Belt so much as it is the entire shirt or entire pair of pants: southern Indiana (except Bloomington) east to Virginia, from there down to northern Florida, then west to about Lubbock, north to northwestern Kansas, then east covering most of Missouri, and a good chunk of southern Illinois until you're back in southern Indiana.

Ok OK i live in the Bible Quilt

 

[maxcok]

Anyway, to keep this from being just an angry rant, . . .

Too late. :wink:

. . . here’s a couple of questions for discussion:
What’s your take on these people? Why do you think they do it? Should they do it? Are they justified in any way?
How should the situation be dealt with? Try to reason with 'em, or just tell 'em to fuck off and ignore them?

These people are deeply, internally conflicted. No, they shouldn't do it, but that's how they deal with their own mess. Don't engage them, and don't be drawn into it. You can't help them, you can't convince them otherwise, you can't change them, and you can't win. My advice, bless their sad little hearts, exit as quickly and gracefully as possible, let it go and move on.

When anyone tries to proselytize to me I have a standard response, "I am very secure in my spiritual beliefs, and I hope you are as well. Nothing you can possibly say will change what I believe, so thank you and have a nice day." :smile: If they ask me about my beliefs, or the usual next step questions, "Do you know where you're going when you die? Aren't you concerned about your eternal soul, etc." my standard response is, "I am very secure in my spiritual beliefs, and I hope you are as well. Nothing you can possibly say will change what I believe, so thank you and have a nice day." :smile: If they persist, repeat 3 or 4 times as necessary never deviating from the script, smile and walk away. And bless their little hearts. :biggrin2:

 

[maxcok]

I recall quite a few years ago I was working at a center for teens and a young man f sixteen confided in me that his girlfriend was pregnant. We discussed the situation and various options, etc.... Then I politely asked him if they have considered birth control. He responded with seeming total sincerity and total lack of irony: "Oh no! We don't believe in premarital sex."
Go figure!!!!
Dave

This is the price of "abstinence only" sex education. Bristol Palin anyone?

 

[maxcok]

I say FUCK the christians. Seriously, literally and figuratively.

I'm mildly offended by that remark, as I consider myself to be a Christian spiritualist.

Sorry i live in the Bible belt in the South. I was also raised in a cooky highly religious family and have to constantly remind myself how stupid the whole thing is. Believe what you want. But you shouldn't be offended that someone else has abandoned the idea of Christianity not too long ago.

No, don't put words in my mouth. You said "fuck Christians". You made no "buts" about it. I was offended by the blanket slur, not the fact that you have left the faith. I'm happy that you made your own decision about what to believe. :smile:

The problem here (yet again) is that all Christians get lumped in with the Bible banging fundamentalists. I've talked about this in other threads. We really need to be more careful with that. It is offensive and a disservice to our friends to paint all Christians with the same broad brush that a vocal minority of fundamentalists represent. The majority of Christians I know couldn't give a hoot about anyone's sexual orientation.

I know lots of folks in my own tiny community who attend traditional churches and are entirely gay supportive. I'm very familiar with the urban church TomCat attends as well; it is very socially progressive and gay friendly. Hell, if it weren't for the sprinklings of New Testament scripture and the high mass, it may as well be Unitarian. Mlle R, you can't expect others to respect your right to your own beliefs, or lack thereof, if you don't allow them the same courtesy - even if you think they are terribly misguided or nuts. I know whereof I speak. I was raised on the buckle of the Bible belt, I've spent about half my life here, and like you, I live here now.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

I didn't say i dont respect people who believe in a God. When i said FUCK them, i was referring to christians who make gay people feel conflicted about their relationship with god. Not Fuck Gay Christians. I think what i said was misunderstood.

I have more christian believing friends than athiest believing friends. I respect others religion until i catch them preaching hate against all sorts of things that have no place in our current society. Then i set them straight and tell them to fuck off in so many other words if they don't care to hear about the real lives of gay people.

And maybe fucking more of them in general will change their beliefs

 

[maxcok]

Is anyone as annoyed as I am by the term "Bible Belt"?

No. Those of us who live there know where it is and what it is. It's different here.

Ok OK i live in the Bible Quilt

She knows too.

 

[maxcok]

I didn't say i dont respect people who believe in a God. When i said FUCK them, i was referring to christians who make gay people feel conflicted about their relationship with god. Not Fuck Gay Christians. I think what i said was misunderstood.

Well, what you said did not distinguish. It really reads like you're dissing all Christians:

I say FUCK the christians. Seriously, literally and figuratively.

I don't mean to single you out. It's just that I see this a lot on the board, lumping all Christians together, good and bad apples. It's just more stereotyping. I think we need to be careful when making general negative statements about a huge population like that, approxiamately 2 Billion worldwide actually. They can't all be that bad. I also think we should be slow to judge if we don't want to be judged. That's in the Bible, btw :wink:

I've posted about this a few times, here for example. Or just search my name and Christian/Christians.

 

[AquaEyes11010]

As an atheist, I find the discussion rather silly myself, but there's something I never understood about christianity, so someone please fill me in. I thought that the essence of the religion is the assumption that Jesus was the messiah and to follow his teachings. The old testament was kept with the new testament as a back-story, but essentially, I thought that Jesus said that the old rules were less important than what he himself had to say to the people. That's why christians don't keep kosher or follow the other orthodox judaic laws.

OK, if that's the case, then why do you keep going back to the old testament to justify hatred toward homosexuality, but claim it's ok to ignore the other 90% of the rules? I mean, do you just skim over all the parts about proper animal sacrifice? And if homosexuality was so bad, why didn't it get mentioned in any of the writings ascribed to Jesus's teachings? I mean, if I decided to belong to a religious philosophy founded in the teachings of one person, I'd concern myself primarily (if not totally) with what that person said. So someone please find me something Jesus said that justifies discrimination of homosexuality, because it seems to me that it's "people" who decide how to connect whichever dots in that book they choose in whatever order they please to come to any conclusion they desire.

 

[Dave NoCal]

What he said...
Dave

 

[maxcok]

As an atheist, I find the discussion rather silly myself, but there's something I never understood about christianity, so someone please fill me in. I thought that the essence of the religion is the assumption that Jesus was the messiah and to follow his teachings. The old testament was kept with the new testament as a back-story, but essentially, I thought that Jesus said that the old rules were less important than what he himself had to say to the people. That's why christians don't keep kosher or follow the other orthodox judaic laws.

OK, if that's the case, then why do you keep going back to the old testament to justify hatred toward homosexuality, but claim it's ok to ignore the other 90% of the rules? I mean, do you just skim over all the parts about proper animal sacrifice? And if homosexuality was so bad, why didn't it get mentioned in any of the writings ascribed to Jesus's teachings? I mean, if I decided to belong to a religious philosophy founded in the teachings of one person, I'd concern myself primarily (if not totally) with what that person said. So someone please find me something Jesus said that justifies discrimination of homosexuality, because it seems to me that it's "people" who decide how to connect whichever dots in that book they choose in whatever order they please to come to any conclusion they desire.

And that, my friend, is pretty much the essence of most organized religions, especially the more dogmatic ones, certainly most fundamentalist Christian sects.

Great observations, and very well put. :grinning-smiley-003

Once during a weekend conference I attended a seminar entitled "What did Jesus say about Homosexuality".
It lasted about ten seconds. :biggrin2:

 

[Dave NoCal]

I once saw a little pamphlets titled "What Jesus Had To Say About Homosexuality." When you opened it, there was nothing written on the inside.
Dave