Consequences of US oil leak

B_talltpaguy

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Posts
2,331
Media
0
Likes
17
Points
123
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Anyone else notice that BP gas stations have been dropping the price of their gas lately? I did a fair bit if driving today (went to the beach), and I noticed 3 BP gas stations, and all three of them had their prices .07-.10 lower than nearby stations that I saw.
 

mrpond

Experimental Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Posts
403
Media
0
Likes
18
Points
163
Location
uk
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
I really do wish the people from the UK posting here would shut up. It wasn't your men killed on that platform. It's not your beaches, wildlife, and jobs that will/are being destroyed. I'm sure you would feel a hell of a lot differently if say....it were a US oil company whose platform blew up in the Irish Sea or North Sea. You'd all be in the same position the people in the US (primarily the Gulf Coast states) and you would be more than slightly offended by posting bullshit garbage trying to take up for the oil excutives. I am more than offended by the comments above, and I would suggest that instead of bashing the US, you would offer a bit more sympathy to those of us who live in the effected area.

Well as a former ex-colony 'read america' - which broke away with the help of the french - we brits do from time to time look upon events occuring in america with tad interest; something to read while we're doing the crossword in the 'Times' ( a daily newspaper old chap)
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Sorry - this was the WORST case? :confused:
I'm not quite sure what you mean? If you mean oil shortages have a definite silver lining because they will mean higher oil prices and less consumption, then yes, this can be considered a benefit. Though Id rather the same result was engineered by taxation.

Whether BP is fully responsible or not legally is irrelevant.
So government hires you to paint a missile silo. You trip over a loose wire and accidentally blow up New York. Do you get the bill?

The question of the bill for the oil spill is not about whose fault it is but about who can be persuaded to pay. BP has quite a lot of money, even on a national scale, so people are after it. But can you really say the true responsibility does not lie with those who gave out the contract on the cheapest terms they could get and in full knowledge that something awful might happen? This is not just about getting someone else to pay, it is also about shifting blame for the spill onto BP, whereas the US people decided they absolutely MUST HAVE the oil, the US government decided to do this particular drilling, some US organisation chose the contractor and regulated its activity. So when will we see the US government collectively getting up and saying, this isnt BPs fault, its all our fault and your fault out there, you people driving around on the streets of the US who demand cheap gas?

If this issue continues then it is quite possible the bill will exceed BPs ability to pay. They can afford to pay quite a lot ($10-20 billion?) for goodwill, but at what point does it become more cost effective just to write off the the whole matter and simply stick to their strict legal liability? In the end as the cost escalates and if the well is not capped, they will have to do this. They cannot voluntarily bankrupt the company when US law does not require them to pay. If BP is finally bankrupted by this, or blacklisted by the US as a future contractor, what will be the effect next time the US asks for bids to develop a new oil well? Be quite sure, it will be doing this. The pollution may be bad, but no human ever yet voted for the lights to go out and the cars to all disappear and the food supply to stop.

The next time the US wants a well developed every oil company will look to what happened to BP this time before it agrees to carry out the work.

Bucko is right- this should be a wake up call to the American people and the rest of the world: we need a Manhattan Project for alternative energy. Fusion, solar, wind, geothermal, dams, nuclear, whatever. The only reason the US government didnt come down hard is that its infested with corporate rats, and a belief that a tough governmental regulatory body is soooooo the end of the world. I'm gonna get off my soapbox
You honestly think the US people will take the lesson and give up oil? If you do, this spill may just be the worlds only hope of salvation from global warming, but I'm still anticipating societies collapse into anarchy when the last drop of oil anywhere has been burnt.

Dear Dandelion: Imagine the entire English channel and 3/4s of your little island kingdom's shoreline being killed off by an oil spill, and then taking 50 years to begin to recover enough that the affected fisheries can produce a small, safe percent of oysters, cod, clams, flounder -- all types of sea life.
We are doing quite a good job right now of killing off all edible species by overfishing. In fact, compared to their onetime levels, we already have. We didnt need the oil to do it for us.

The most insidious aspect of oil spills is the resulting effect on wildlife and in the case of the Gulf of Mexico, the major estuaries that are the beating heart and nest for wildlife throughout the gulf. This is going to impact all sea and bird life for more than "just a few decades."
I saw an analysis of all past oil spills just recently. In every case the damage was less than feared and recovered much better than feared. Also, incidentally, most attempts at cleanup (especially by adding more chemicals) proved useless or even counter productive. Crude oil is a natural substance and the environment will eventually take care of it. Human beings are shocked that they can no longer sit on their nice clean pretty beach eating fish they just caught, but somehow don't care they were already driving that same fish to extinction by overfishing. Sheer hypocrisy suddenly getting into a fit about BP.

And even when things finally seem to have returned to normal in about 50 years, the wetlands will still be saturated with all of the carcinogens that make up crude oil.
So are you absolutely certain that in 50 years time global warming and rising sea levels wouldnt have done for them anyway? They were already doomed.
 

vince

Legendary Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Posts
8,271
Media
1
Likes
1,678
Points
333
Location
Canada
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
Were you? why? The US government has as much money as it needs to employ experts on the risks of drilling and the strategic need for new oil reserves. One would assume it made a careful decision about the need to develop new oil feeds and made careful regulations to govern how this would be done. BP accepted the contract to do the exploration on the terms set by the US government. One of those terms was a liability limit of $75 million.

Having done the deal on those terms, some people have now decided they should have made different terms and want to change them retrospectively. Well if the US government can do so, so can BP. They could say, on those new terms we would not have taken the contract, so its null and void. You are repudiating the contract, thats unfair, you deal with it. Maybe the US made a bad deal, maybe it didnt, but it cant change the rules now.

As I understand it, the US government specifically has a thing called the Price Anderson indemnity Act, which underwrites losses due to any nuclear accident. The US government has decided that it ought to pay the bill in the event of a nuclear accident, but you reckon in this case, which you say is worse, it should not? The reason for the PAA was because no company was willing to build reactors without the government formally accepting liability for accidents. This logic applies equally to oilfield development. Thats why there is a $75 million liability limit. It is a very important part of the contract. The US is now bellyaching that it decided not to pay for insurance before all this happened.
There maybe some misunderstanding about the law passed in response to the 1989 Exxon Valdez spill in Alaska. The statute makes the oil company 100 percent responsible for cleanup costs, but sets a $75 million limit on other kinds of damages (liabilites) such as lost wages and economic suffering in the Gulf Coast oil spill.

Also one would assume that in order for the $75m cap to be binding on all parties to the contract, the holder of the drilling licence, BP, and the contractors hired by them, would have to be in 100 percent compliance with the various laws and regulations dealing with offshore oil drilling and with any orders given by state or federal agencies regarding that specific well.

So government hires you to paint a missile silo. You trip over a loose wire and accidentally blow up New York. Do you get the bill?
In this case yes. You have to pay for the clean-up. And probably the re-building. But you don't have to pay the survivors for their lost wages and suffering. That is assuming of course you were operating within the law and accepted industry best practices and that it was truly an accident. If it wasn't, then you are on the hook.
If BP is finally bankrupted by this, or blacklisted by the US as a future contractor, what will be the effect next time the US asks for bids to develop a new oil well? Be quite sure, it will be doing this. The pollution may be bad, but no human ever yet voted for the lights to go out and the cars to all disappear and the food supply to stop.

The next time the US wants a well developed every oil company will look to what happened to BP this time before it agrees to carry out the work.
Given the profits involved in the oil business, you can be sure there will be a line up.

Your wording is curious... "agrees to carry out the work"? Drilling licences are offered for auction and bid on by the oil companies. The way you make it sound, the government should be paying them, or they are doing it out of the goodness of their corporate heart. :smile:

We are doing quite a good job right now of killing off all edible species by overfishing. In fact, compared to their onetime levels, we already have. We didnt need the oil to do it for us.
So are you absolutely certain that in 50 years time global warming and rising sea levels wouldnt have done for them anyway? They were already doomed.
Come on. These are not logical arguments. "She wasn't in good health and was going to die eventually, so we have no liability for mistakenly removed the patient's kidney when we were supposed to take out her gallbladder."

The rig is at the bottom of the ocean, the people operating it are still on it, what forensics are there to prove one way or another that safety proceedures were not followed, that substandard equipment and machinery was been used? Until that rig is back on dry land and inspected we will not know.
Actually that is not totally correct. There is a papertrail and there will be the testimony of dozens of witnesses. It may very well be possible to get to the bottom (!) of this disaster without "raising the Titanic". If you get my meaning.
 

dandelion

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Posts
13,297
Media
21
Likes
2,705
Points
358
Location
UK
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Vince, the rant was mainly in response to curious criticism of, I think, republicans, for blocking new immediate and retrospective legislation about this. This is clearly an attempt to change the rules after the event. Whatever BP is liable for now, someone seems to think they ought to be responsible for more than they signed up for.

Your wording is curious... "agrees to carry out the work"? Drilling licences are offered for auction and bid on by the oil companies. The way you make it sound, the government should be paying them, or they are doing it out of the goodness of their corporate heart. :smile:
Historically oil companies, and most industry, have never been required to pay for cleanup of their activities. If they were then a lot of things would never have been done. Make BP liable for the CO2 polution from all that burnt oil? The bill would instantly make their activities unprofitable and the company would stop operations. Thats why they are not liable, but we are now arguing about the extent of liabilities. I made the example with the nuclear industry because engineering and power companies historically simply refused to get involved in a business with open ended liabilities. The same would be true of oil if it started up now on the same terms. Tobacco companies didnt just quit because they discovered their product was killing people. They have struggled on in business because thats what they do. Same will be true of oil, but ultimately the industry cannot pay for the polution it causes. The public has to accept liability.

I mentioned the 50 years time result because Midlife mentioned the number. What is happening here is that people are getting upset because of a sudden threat to coastlands. Yet there is a slow acting threat which is also happening now and will achieve exactly the same result by 50 years time, which no one is doing anything about. This is hypocrisy.
 

vince

Legendary Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Posts
8,271
Media
1
Likes
1,678
Points
333
Location
Canada
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
Vince, the rant was mainly in response to curious criticism of, I think, republicans, for blocking new immediate and retrospective legislation about this. This is clearly an attempt to change the rules after the event. Whatever BP is liable for now, someone seems to think they ought to be responsible for more than they signed up for.

Historically oil companies, and most industry, have never been required to pay for cleanup of their activities. If they were then a lot of things would never have been done. Make BP liable for the CO2 polution from all that burnt oil? The bill would instantly make their activities unprofitable and the company would stop operations. Thats why they are not liable, but we are now arguing about the extent of liabilities. I made the example with the nuclear industry because engineering and power companies historically simply refused to get involved in a business with open ended liabilities. The same would be true of oil if it started up now on the same terms. Tobacco companies didnt just quit because they discovered their product was killing people. They have struggled on in business because thats what they do. Same will be true of oil, but ultimately the industry cannot pay for the polution it causes. The public has to accept liability.

I mentioned the 50 years time result because Midlife mentioned the number. What is happening here is that people are getting upset because of a sudden threat to coastlands. Yet there is a slow acting threat which is also happening now and will achieve exactly the same result by 50 years time, which no one is doing anything about. This is hypocrisy.
It may be hypocritical, but that does not let BP or anyone else of the hook. This is the here and now and what might, or probably will happen, does not excuse irresponsible or perhaps criminal behavior. Forget about taking that argument to court.

I agree that the liability limits should not be changed retroactively. 75 million dollars liability for damages is ridiculously low in 2010 and should have been increased over the years since 1990.

However your statement that- "Historically oil companies, and most industry, have never been required to pay for cleanup of their activities", is not correct. The Oil Pollution Act of 1990 specifically stipulates that the liability of a party responsible for an offshore facility shall not exceed the total of all removal costs plus $75,000,000. This is a 20 year old Act and BP was well aware of it. No one is trying to saddle them with clean up costs unfairly. It is the damages to third parties that people are talking about raising.

As far as making BP liable for all the pollution arising from the use of their products, that does not have any bearing here. I don't see the connection. I am responsible for the pollution coming from the tailpipe of my car. BP doesn't force me to burn their products. Likewise, no one twisted BP's arm to make them drill for oil over a mile below the surface of the Gulf of Mexico.
 

Rikter8

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Posts
4,353
Media
1
Likes
130
Points
283
Location
Ann Arbor (Michigan, United States)
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Hypocracy or not, these people let safety go by the wayside for the all mighty buck. Most production of oil possible - no matter what the cost.

When Chunks of the blowout preventer seal started surfacing, it was ignored.
Safety checks and tests were ignored.

I don't think people can really wrap their minds around how big of a disaster this is.
It isn't a little cloud floating at the top of the water.
There's a MASSIVE Oil GLOB floating around 3,000 or so Ft below the waters surface, estimated around 6 MILES LONG and about 300-600FT DEEP - SOLID.

So... any whale sharks, or any creatures swim into this solid glob, they're dead.
All the plankton, dead. Food Chain of the sea... Dead.
No fish. Fish prices skyrocket, and we don't get fish.
Now Birds eat the surfaced dead fish... They die. Other animals eat the dead birds....they die.

Wait till the Hurricane season kicks up and blows this shit inland. Now Plants are dying. Crops are coated in oil, and so is the topsoil- now you have a food shortage because you can't plant crops in oil.
Now... you'll have a good 6 inches of topsoil that you'll have to remove from millions of acres of land. Where do you put it?

Get the picture? And...our East Friends - It's coming your way. It will take a bit to get there, but rest be assured - It's coming.

Trans-Atlantic owned the rig, they need to be held accountable, as well as BP who was pumping oil out of the rig or Leasing it.

It's no different than a landlord washing his hands of a defective stairwell on an apartment. Safety should be everyone's concern, and I hope that the families of those that perished in this rig get together and hammer this home.

If Obama wouldn't have raised the issue threatening a takeover - nothing would have been done. But, part of that is just a political show. They are all in bed together. Just appease the public so it appears your doing a good job.
If they really gave a shit about it - It would already be capped.
 
Last edited:

B_OtterJoq

Sexy Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Posts
912
Media
0
Likes
40
Points
163
Location
Minneapolis
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
Rush Limbaugh said we don't need to do anything, since oil is "perfectly natural."

Anyone here agree with him?

(Or am I just baiting with this question? LOL)
 

freyasworld

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Posts
282
Media
4
Likes
112
Points
63
Location
West Midlands United kingdom
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Female
Rush Limbaugh said we don't need to do anything, since oil is "perfectly natural."

Anyone here agree with him?

(Or am I just baiting with this question? LOL)

I think you are certainly going to get a roasting!

however, crude oil is biodegradable, salt water and sunlight encourage micro-organisms to feed on it and break it down. When it hits the coast, beaches it becomes a real serious problem.
 

FRE

Admired Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Posts
3,053
Media
44
Likes
839
Points
258
Location
Palm Springs, California USA
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
Rush Limbaugh said we don't need to do anything, since oil is "perfectly natural."

Anyone here agree with him?

(Or am I just baiting with this question? LOL)

Mr. Limbaugh is perfectly right; oil is perfectly natural.

Everything that is natural is either good or harmless and therefore should be ensued and not feared. Thus, we need not fear rattlesnake venom, arsenic, lead, cyanide compounds (peach stones contain cyanide compounds), poison ivy, oil spills, etc. etc. since they are all natural.

On the other hand, everything that is not natural is harmful and should eschewed and feared. Thus, we should fear penicillin, polio vaccine, stitches for wounds, etc.
 

faceking

Cherished Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2004
Posts
7,426
Media
6
Likes
282
Points
208
Location
Mavs, NOR * CAL
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Rush Limbaugh said we don't need to do anything, since oil is "perfectly natural."

Anyone here agree with him?

(Or am I just baiting with this question? LOL)

What exactly did he say, via context thereof of just two words, and your supposition thereof... since you seem to be an expert on Limbaugh... or you just stroking the vehement liberal LPSG trolls and just enjoy the shake of the Obama pom-poms that are never set down in these parts? The messiah if you will....