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Conservative MP: I dont want to sit with a different class of people

D_Andreas Sukov

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Tory's fury over second-class travel - UK Politics, UK - The Independent


New Conservatives? Yeah right. Luckily for the party, he is retiring so they can say what they want about him. "He is out of touch", "a fool".

All this shows is that the Conservative party have not changed. Posh Bastards then, posh bastards now. Anyone else taking a trip to the seaside this weekend? :biggrin1:
 
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Not to make light of this, but this is my favourite part of the report:

"A veteran backbencher and former member of the Conservative Monday Club, Sir Nicholas is no stranger to controversy. Last November, he was accused of slapping the backside of Labour MP Natascha Engel."


:wavey:
 
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Gee, it's behaviour that seems so....common. Very "middle class", even. :rolleyes:


Such an easy target.
 

Jason

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He's a prat. He shouldn't have said it.

But have you travelled second class recently? The last one I was on had a breast feeding mother oppposite me, baby changed on the table right where I was sitting. Oh and my return journey had half a dozen ladettes, drunk (or drugged) - one of them pulled her top up showing her tits and ran through the carriage shouting "rapist" at every man, cheered on by her friends. I can't afford first class. But I am seriously considering it next time. There is nothing wrong with the seats or the physical quality of second class accommodation - it is the people.

We need a proper debate on such issues. The idea of our MPs not travelling 1st class is barking. I want my MP to travel as necessary and to do work while travelling, and realistically she needs to travel first class to do this. The problem is the class of people you get in second class. Yes it was a tactless thing to say. Maybe he should have said "type" not "class". The type I saw was selfish, thoughtless, inconsiderate, offensive and made my trip pretty miserable. And no I didn't get any work done.
 

D_Andreas Sukov

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I take the standard class, which i assume to be 2nd class. I have had terrible experiances on some. But these tended to be on shorter trips from woking to london. On longer journeys from london to Manchester or Newquay, for example, i have never had these issues. This is irrelevent though.

The behaviour of the people is a matter for the company. The MP should have complained about the companies inability to police its carriages. Its the way he went about it that pissed me off.
 

Jason

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Yes he went about it all wrong - it was a stupid thing to say. I would like to see the train companies police what they call "standard" class better (and call it second class - that's what it is!) but it is hard to see how they could win. Breast feeding a baby is legal (even if it is happening just inches away across a train table). Changing a baby on the table is pretty ghastly but no one, just no one dare say anything to a mother. Issues around a drunk woman flashing her tits and shouting "rapist" are pretty serious. Okay I had a particularly lousy journey, but screaming kids, smells, drunks, overcrowding are all pretty common. And the brutal truth is that the problems are the people.
 

Drifterwood

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The Civil Service travel First Class.

Her joke was about sharks fancying a chinese at Morecambe Bay. We tell sick jokes.
 
S

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Tory's fury over second-class travel - UK Politics, UK - The Independent


New Conservatives? Yeah right. Luckily for the party, he is retiring so they can say what they want about him. "He is out of touch", "a fool".

All this shows is that the Conservative party have not changed. Posh Bastards then, posh bastards now. Anyone else taking a trip to the seaside this weekend? :biggrin1:
Don't blame him one bit.I nearly always pay the extra to go first class,some of the people you get in standard class are ghastly.Bit of a tired old arguement trying to suggest that standard class='salt of the earth hard working ordinary folk!' whereas first class=good for nothing lazy right wing toffs!'......Stereotypes,stereotypes,stereotypes!!
 

Jason

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Winterton's comments were a stupid own goal. But there is a sensible political point lurking behind his outburst.

Labour want us all to travel second class, by train and in life. Calling it "standard class" is a political act from compliant railway companies. Labour have followed the doctrine of class envy to the extreme where they have made us all poorer. The enormous increase in the numbers living in poverty under thirteen years of Labour is shocking. So is the money we will all pay in reduced income/benefits and increased tax to pay back Labour's monstrous defecit. Labour have betrayed the poor and indeed all in the UK.

By contrast the Conservatives want us all to be "Posh Bastards" travelling first class - you too Lemon. It isn't fundamentally a matter of cost - it is about changing people's attitudes. Our second class railway carriages would be de facto first class if people acted first class. Conservatives offer us all a way to move forwards out of the slough of despond of Labour failure.
 
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I think he couldn't have put it across in a worse way.

I think the 'different class of people' comment is a different matter to whether first or second class is better for business travel.

Probably first class would be more suitable if you're gna be doing office work on the train, no matter who you are. Loads of people pay their own travel into work tho (admittedly MPs have to travel a long way), so I don't see why he can't chip in the extra, if he wants to upgrade to first class...I'm guessin' he's not exactly skint.

I agree tho that standard class could do with being moitored more carefully. The Gov wants more ppl on public transport, which is fine (and rail travel has been at its highest level for 40 years), but they have to make it possible for the companies to cope with the extra ppl. The Gov is only just granting the lengthier contracts that would make it viable, and still - as far as I know - is vetoing companies' requests to allow extra rolling stock/carriages and services to be put on.
 

Drifterwood

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If he wants First Class, then how come he doesn't simply pay for it himself?

Pay for yourself?????? :rolleyes:

Winterton is an anachronism of the glory tory boy days under Thatcher.

It is disingenuous to say that he is representative of anything else.

Now Gordon Clown being an overbearing Bully - that is more newsworthy, surely?
 
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what a nob. but then brown is incompetent, i mean who sells the countrie's gold reserves when gold is at an all time LOW!!!! and now were taxed down the pisshole to make up the shortfall.
i wil again refuse to vote this year as i believe the elections are fixed, even if they werent both parties will line the pockets of the rich as the working class (ME) gets shafted.
fuck it fuck em, there all bastards!!!!

sorry bout the rant, and ill prob end up voting lib dem, but there amateurs too, any1 want to start a party with me, based around fairness and equality for all full stop. no war, instead we secure national interests abroad by treating other countries with respect. Increasing sentences for murder and rape, and legalising cannabis so that we can regulate and tax it. Oh and sharing of all technologies (except millitary) particularly agriculture technology.

just a thought but do you all think that politicians have very small penises (explains browns mood) and thats why they like to fuck with people?

peace
 
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what a nob. but then brown is incompetent, i mean who sells the countrie's gold reserves when gold is at an all time LOW!!!! and now were taxed down the pisshole to make up the shortfall.
i wil again refuse to vote this year as i believe the elections are fixed, even if they werent both parties will line the pockets of the rich as the working class (ME) gets shafted.
fuck it fuck em, there all bastards!!!!

sorry bout the rant, and ill prob end up voting lib dem, but there amateurs too, any1 want to start a party with me, based around fairness and equality for all full stop. no war, instead we secure national interests abroad by treating other countries with respect. Increasing sentences for murder and rape, and legalising cannabis so that we can regulate and tax it. Oh and sharing of all technologies (except millitary) particularly agriculture technology.

just a thought but do you all think that politicians have very small penises (explains browns mood) and thats why they like to fuck with people?

peace

You mean you get to vote?? Heaven help us!!
 

dong20

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The Civil Service travel First Class.

Well, only above certain grades - and it's increasingly exeptional for other than the most senior staff.

Her joke was about sharks fancying a chinese at Morecambe Bay. We tell sick jokes.

In a rare agreement with Jason; even though his [Winterton's] observations are broadly on point, he [Winterton] remains a prat.

For certain groups of people, certain things (even if based in truth) are simply best left unsaid. Just be grateful third class no longer exists! :rolleyes:
 

dandelion

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Just be grateful third class no longer exists! :rolleyes:
I have news.... On the lines round here there are three kinds of seats. There are coaches with five seats across a carriage, and then there are carriages with four seats across a carriage. The two types seem to appear slightly randomly making up a block of four the same in an eight coach train. So its important to check both ends to get a good seat. The coaches are open end to end with glass partitions at the doors, making short sections either end. Some of these have red coloured seats which are first class. They are the same size as the blue second class ones, but of course the redness is more conducive to calm. The third class carriages also sport the red second class size seats for first class.

Generally I quite enjoy the trains. The last one a group of young guys got on and argued about how one of them had got cum on his face. It was a bit late at night. On a previous occasion it was rush hour so I sat on the floor reading my book. Another guy got out his laptop and worked on something on the floor opposite me. Most city types probably feel over dressed for sitting on floors, but I dont like standing and Im not a city type. Generally there is no problem gettting a seat just as good as first class if you travel off peak (and MPs keep very strange hours). At rush hour you'd be paying for having one, but I havnt checked to see if that really works. I doubt they have a system to make sure you get a seat if you buy a first class ticket. Why would they? A ticket doesnt even guarantee there will be space to squeeze onto the train.

I always thought that giving politicians free first class tickets was just a freeby they get in return for the government subsidy. Might as well pay first class fares, its just a slightly different way of handing over that subsidy.

The Gov is only just granting the lengthier contracts that would make it viable, and still - as far as I know - is vetoing companies' requests to allow extra rolling stock/carriages and services to be put on.
Thats curious. I heard the company refused to run extra trains because they would have to pay to run them. The same number of people in more trains=less profit.
 
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dong20

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Try getting on a rush hour train from London Bridge.

Or any number of Tube lines ... although rather than third class, it's more ... cattle class (although cattle travel better - even if typically only one way).

Still, compared to some places! For me what renders it unacceptable is less the overcrowding than the cost - and at least LU and Network rail have not (yet) resorted to shovers ... a la Tokyo!
 

MarkLondon

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<snip> Just be grateful third class no longer exists! :rolleyes:

But it does! It's what we now call standard class.

From Wikipedia:

During the Victorian era, in the United Kingdom, most trains had three classes of accommodation: First Class (for upper-class people); Second Class (for middle-class people); Third Class (for working-class people). From the 1870s onwards, Second Class (equivalent to either Premium Economy or business class) was gradually abolished and First Class and Third Class were retained. The reason that Second Class was abolished and Third Class retained was that the Railway Regulation Act 1844 required a Third Class service to be offered. In June 1956, Third Class was re-named Second Class, which in turn was renamed Standard Class in the 1980s.
 

dong20

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But it does! It's what we now call standard class.

... In June 1956, Third Class was re-named Second Class, which in turn was renamed Standard Class in the 1980s.

June 3rd to be precise.

Whatever you want to call it, at least today (in the UK at least) there's a roof, even if quite often - insufficient room to swing a small cat!

It's largely meaningless - for example (one of many) in India 1st class is arguably '3rd class' since AC and AC Exec are above it. I always travelled 2nd class in India - interesting to be sure!

I'd pay good money to see the Wintertons do that!
 

Jason

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Seems to me that the 1st/2nd class rail fare for MPs debate demonstrates a central problem with MPs' expenses. Once we start pouring over the details we are inevitably going to feel "why should we pay for that?" Surely the answer is to pay them a salary and be done with it. Whether they want to travel 1st or 2nd is then up to them, as is whether they have a second home in London and whether they need a duck house.

Curiously the idea of us paying MPs is quite a recent one. The intention is to make it possible for someone to become an MP irrespective of income. The alternative would be that MPs get no salary but serve on a purely voluntary basis, as our magistrates and our councillors do. Perhaps a salary for MPs could come not from the public but from the political parties.
 

tomthelad91

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More to the point is do we need that many MPs at all.

America manages with 435, France with 577, Germany with 626, Italy with 630, yet we have 646?

What do MPs do really? Now that everything's privatized they just fanny around making pathetically unimportant legislation.
We could easily manage with 400 MPs.
 

dandelion

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Seems to me that the 1st/2nd class rail fare for MPs debate demonstrates a central problem with MPs' expenses. Once we start pouring over the details we are inevitably going to feel "why should we pay for that?" Surely the answer is to pay them a salary and be done with it.
hey Jason, we agree on something. They got expenses in the first place purely because they were too embarrassed to give themselves more pay rises.

Curiously the idea of us paying MPs is quite a recent one. The intention is to make it possible for someone to become an MP irrespective of income. The alternative would be that MPs get no salary but serve on a purely voluntary basis, as our magistrates and our councillors do.
I think many local councillors now get rather a lot of, er, expenses too. Members of the house of lords get around #100 per day or #200 including a night. (sorry, pound sign seems to have disappeared)


Perhaps a salary for MPs could come not from the public but from the political parties.
So as the member for 'save whatsit hospital', or' member against political corruption', I would get nothing because I was only representing what local people wanted instead of an established group. No, they should get paid because they are doing work. Unfortunately for MPs I and apparently you and lots of others don't think they deserve to be paid what they are, which is #65,000 basic, plus expenses. Only the top 10% of people in the UK earn more than #50,000 per year. Median wage (half of people more, half less) is #28,000. Should MPs be in the top 10 %? Top 1%?
 

Jason

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We probably need a lot less MPs - with a bit of luck this is something that will be sorted out in the next parliament.

Actually I think they should be paid about what they are paid or a bit more. If we don't have MPs in the top 10% - even the top 1% - we are not paying a salary commensurate with the market rate for the sort of skills we want. But pay them a salary and be done with it. Who pays I think is becoming an issue driven by public opinion. We are getting a national mood of criticising MPs as a class in part because we pay for them. Maybe we should take the heat out of the issue by stopping public payment. MPs in the main parties would not be personally affected. Churches pay for their clergy - why shouldn't political parties pay for their MPs? The potential issue is around the independent MPs - maybe we need some special arrangement for this tiny category.
 

dong20

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We probably need a lot less MPs - with a bit of luck this is something that will be sorted out in the next parliament.

Actually I think they should be paid about what they are paid or a bit more. If we don't have MPs in the top 10% - even the top 1% - we are not paying a salary commensurate with the market rate for the sort of skills we want. But pay them a salary and be done with it. Who pays I think is becoming an issue driven by public opinion. We are getting a national mood of criticising MPs as a class in part because we pay for them. Maybe we should take the heat out of the issue by stopping public payment. MPs in the main parties would not be personally affected. Churches pay for their clergy - why shouldn't political parties pay for their MPs? The potential issue is around the independent MPs - maybe we need some special arrangement for this tiny category.

The first sentence, I agree with (on the need, that is - not the likelihood. That a (probably) newly elected party seeking to change the system that finally allowed to be brought back in from the wilderness.

That MPs should be paid based on merit, no problem there. It would be about time, though it would probably necessitate replacing most of them.

The rest, well, IMO it's a load of old tosh.

It would almost certainly create a system open to such abuse - financial, sociopolitical, judicial - on so many levels it's hard to know where to begin.

HM (but not for long) Government, LTD (not PLC).

Hell, even the US hasn't sunk so low as to privatise it's adminisration, though a fair few of its denizens have given it their best shot.

Like some of your other suggestions about the EU etc ... did you even think it through ... or did it just tumble out?
 
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mitchymo

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Tory's fury over second-class travel - UK Politics, UK - The Independent


New Conservatives? Yeah right. Luckily for the party, he is retiring so they can say what they want about him. "He is out of touch", "a fool".

All this shows is that the Conservative party have not changed. Posh Bastards then, posh bastards now. Anyone else taking a trip to the seaside this weekend? :biggrin1:

I'm slacking, i really should have jumped on this thread earlier being that i love me those tories! :rolleyes:
 

dong20

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Loaded question :smile:, but is that grade commensurate with an MP?

No, not really - but then I was merely correcting your rather broad generalisation.

I think MPs should be able to travel 1st class when deemed necessary, when they're on official business that is. Subject to some basic fiscal criteria, and auditing of course.