Conservative VS Liberals....is there a difference at all?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by elegant20, Jan 19, 2010.

  1. elegant20

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    Just wondering as to your perception as to what makes a conservative a conservative and a liberal a liberal? Curious to know your answers. I am all ears on this one.
     
  2. B_Enough_for_Me

    B_Enough_for_Me New Member

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    I don't think this topic can be accurately surmised on a big dick forum but I'll give you something to chew on.

    As a loose way of thinking about liberalism vs. conservatism I have to establish some sort of method for separating the two ideas. For this I use the political spectrum: the "left" and the "right". Some would incorrectly say that the spectrum delineates the size of government, but that is short sighted. The spectrum is about freedoms of the individual. So, at the far left we have Communitarianism (complete restriction on the individual) and at the far right we have Anarchy (no restrictions). That sounds like the size of government, doesn't it? But it isn't. It is possible to have no government at all on the left; though practice has disproven theory here. So, when I look at what is a liberal I see one who wants to put more restrictions on the actions of those around them. For instance, leftists are notorious for taxing the populous to pay for social programs. So, they take away your ability to choose what to do with your money (our most powerful asset) and do what they think is good. Conservatives on the other hand believe that fewer restrictions on individuals will result in an improved society where actors are able to achieve what they want for themselves. In a historical perspective, governments have been the most awful institutions ever created by man; conservatives recognize this. It is important to note I draw a distinction between religious conservatives and conservatism. The theocratic nature of religious conservatives puts them more in line with a communitarian perspective than a conservative one.

    Now, having said all that, we have an incredibly hypocritical political spectrum in the United States. The Republicans, considered the "right" party, believe in a string of restrictions on the individual that spring up out of religion; opposing gay marriage for instance. The Democrats, our "left" party, believes people should be free to choose what to do with their body unless what they choose an economic activity, then the democrats heavily restrict your actions (an irreconcilable position). So, when I say "liberal" or "conservative" I don't mean Republican or Democrat.

    If this wasn't confusing enough, I need to add the liberal conception of money and wealth to my definition. Liberalism has adopted the idea that all "rich" people got "rich" by exploiting others; namely poor people. Really all this boils down to is a new definition of "fairness." For instance, I'm poor and he's rich; I didn't get a "fair" shake in this world, and am poor because of it, and he got a more than "fair" shake and is rich. Therefore, I am owed what the "rich" man has because he got it through "unfair" means. This idea is deeply ingrained in modern liberals. Obviously, this is due to the Communist/socialist influence of the 19th century. It is extremely easy to convince poor people that they were exploited and are owed huge sums of money. This poses huge, and yet to be answered, questions. For instance, if a rich man earned his living fairly, and a poor man earned his poverty fairly, why do we still take (by force) the money from the rich man?

    So, thats what a liberal and a conservative are.

    Well, I'll stop here. This is a summary and a generalization where a dissertation would be appropriate.
     
  3. HazelGod

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    In my eyes, these terms are meaningless labels...rhetorical crutches without which the resident polemicists haven't any leg to stand upon.

    Implements of a false dichotomy, they're vulgar vehicles of ad hominem...an easy means for those inclined to disengage their brains and spew their vitriol without bothering to actually analyze a situation.
     
  4. D_Fiona_Farvel

    D_Fiona_Farvel Account Disabled

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    No. Co-signing to HazelGod's post.
     
  5. ericbythebay

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    A conservative wants things to remain the same irregardless of the evidence, a liberal wants to change things irregardless of the evidence.
     
  6. D_Andreas Sukov

    D_Andreas Sukov Account Disabled

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    A Conservative wants it all for the rich, A liberal likes to make it appear as if they are doing things for the poor.....
     
  7. tripod

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    Conservatives and liberals are VERY similar except for one simple difference in their brains. Conservatives do NOT have the ability to feel empathy very well which leads to their lack of compassion. It's largely genetic and that is why most people come from a long line of conservatives or liberals.

    A conservative can only care about their immediate circle because of their lack of empathy and do NOT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT ANYONE OUTSIDE OF THEIR CIRCLE. That is why they bellicosely wage war like Ming the Merciless and recklessly ruin the earth's environment for future generations. The Madoffs of the world greedily take all of our money and feel NOTHING... absolutely no guilt. They absolutely CANNOT feel guilt because of their lack of empathy... very similar to the criminal mind.

    Reincarnated vikings they are... raping and pillaging with no thought about their consequences.

    It's the fucking truth whether anyone likes it or not.
     
  8. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    Tri, is it possible that you are mistaking this - because conservatives are generally against fiscal gov't intervention and transfer payments and liberals are generally for it - that you extrapolate a lack of empathy?

    Your claim about waging war is disproven easily:

    Democrats have started more wars than Republicans. 16 to 10. See below:

    Franco-American Naval War(Quasi War): John Adams, Federalist(Ancestor Party of the Republicans); See XYZ affair for reason of war

    First Barbary War: Thomas Jefferson, Democratic-Republican(Ancestor Party of the Democrats); Tripolitians ransomed American Sailors and tried to blackmail US. When the US refused the Pasha(equivalent to king) declared war.

    Second Barbary War and War of 1812: James Madison, Democratic-Republican; Second Barbary War began the same way as the first only with the Bey of Algiers declaring war. While the War of 1812 can be argued as being a war about sailor's rights, the real motive was Canada.

    Mexican-American War: James K. Polk, Democratic; The Republic of Texas had a claim to Land between the Rio Grand and San Antionio(which the US inherited), which was not valid. Polk sent troops to the territory to protect it and the Mexican government sent troops to drive it out.

    American Civil War: Abraham Lincoln, Republican; First fought to preserve the Union(the right to secede is still debated to this day) later to end slavery.

    Korea(1876); Ulysses S. Grant, Republican; Called Choson at the time, the country attacked and destroyed an American Navy Vessel. The war was fought with similar motives as Perry's visit with Japan.

    Spanish-American War and Phillipine Insurrection: William McKinley, Republican; American Naval Ship Maine sent to monitor alleged mistreatment of the civilians of Cuba and protect American economic interests. The ship was destroyed and the press (the real instigators of the war)of the time placed the now doubtful blame on the Spanish. US fought the war to free Cuba. McKinley announced that giving the Filipinos Independence outright would be like simply handing them over the Germans or Japanese(because of the geographic position) and harm American economic Interests.

    Haiti; Vera Cruz occupation, Pancho Villa, World War I: Woodrow Wilson, Democratic; Troops were sent in to stabilize Haiti, Vera Cruz was occupied to prevent ships from Germany delivering guns to the government. Pancho Villa made several attacks on Americans(because he was not recognized as President of Mexico) forcing Wilson to send troops to capture Villa. WWI involvement was the result of Germany violating Neutrality rights.

    Nicaragua: Calvin Coolidge, Republican; Like Haiti the objective was stabilization.

    World War II: Franklin D. Roosevelt, Democratic; Asked for declaration of war after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Germany and Italy declared war two days later.

    Korean war (1950-54): Harry S. Truman, Democrat; North Korea, in violation of a UN treaty, invaded South Korea. Troops were sent to contain communism.

    Vietnam War: Lyndon B. Johnson, Democratic; involvement started after two American gunboats were attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin(the reports have now been proven falsified.).

    Grenada: Ronald Reagan, Republican; When a Communist government took over the country, it persecuted the American college students studying there.

    Panama, Persian Gulf War Operation Restoring Freedom: George HW Bush, Republican; Noriega, leader of Panama was charged with drug traffickingand through Noriega's power, Panama would declare war(Though retaining the Canal is alleged to be the real motive). Persian Gulf War was fought to Liberate Kuwait from Iraq and protect Saudi Arabia from an Invasion(also to protect oil interests). Troops were sent to Somalia to assist in the feeding the hungry after guerrillas shot up UN aid convoys.

    Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq: Bill Clinton, Democratic Party; troops were sent to Bosnia to enforce peacekeeping. Yugoslavia was attacked over genocide upon the ethnic Albanians
    in Kosovo. Air assaults were done upon Iraq after it failed to comply with UN weapons inspectors.

    Afghanistan and Iraq: George W. Bush, Republican; Invasion of Afghanistan was the result of the Taliban ruled government's refusal to hand over Osama bin Laden. Iraq's invasion is still under debate.

    Final Score: Democrats: 16
    Republicans: 10

    Source: Copied from Wiki
     
  9. tripod

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    Absolutely not, it is from careful inspection of my conservative friends, relatives, acquaintances and business associates. All of the policy decisions that separate liberals and conservatives find their root in the presence or lack of empathy.

    I am also making a distinction between liberals and conservatives... NOT Republicans and Democrats. There are a few liberal conservatives (most of them have been purged from the party) left, but there are a TON of conservative Democrats out there.

    I said that conservatives bellicosely wage war, I did not say that Republicans start more wars.

    I'll repeat what I typed:

    Conservatives and liberals are VERY similar except for one simple difference in their brains. Conservatives do NOT have the ability to feel empathy very well which leads to their lack of compassion. It's largely genetic and that is why most people come from a long line of conservatives or liberals.

    A conservative can only care about their immediate circle because of their lack of empathy and do NOT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT ANYONE OUTSIDE OF THEIR CIRCLE. That is why they bellicosely wage war like Ming the Merciless and recklessly ruin the earth's environment for future generations. The Madoffs of the world greedily take all of our money and feel NOTHING... absolutely no guilt. They absolutely CANNOT feel guilt because of their lack of empathy... very similar to the criminal mind.
     
  10. D_Andreas Sukov

    D_Andreas Sukov Account Disabled

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    I think Star is confusing Conservatives with Economic libertarians. I hardly doubt one conservative was reeling from the bank bail out....
     
  11. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    'That is why they bellicosely wage war like Ming the Merciless'

    That is the remark I was responding to. It isn't possible in the framework of our government for 'conservatives,' as a group, to wage war.

    I understand that you think conservatives are a pile of shit due to some of your acquaintances, but I think it is short-sighted to paint the entire lot of them as such.

    In regards to your belief that conservatives have no empathy - as I have proven on this site before - conservatives, as a group, contribute more time, money, blood and resources to charity than do liberals - by a longshot. And the average liberal household has a higher avg income than the average conservative household.

    The arguments from the liberals were these:

    liberals just don't report charitable contributions on their tax returns
    liberals give to causes that aren't endorsed as 'charity' by the IRS
    liberals are too busy helping people to give blood

    All ridiculous counters.
     
    #11 B_starinvestor, Jan 21, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2010
  12. tripod

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    Well it ain't the liberals who are ordering the bombs to be dropped.

    I don't think that they are piles of shit by any means... I used to, but now I understand the actual differences between us and can't help but feel compassion for people that can't easily feel compassion. It's fucking liberating for me, because it takes sooo much negative energy to hate people. I'd rather focus on the positive. Plus, you're conservative and I like you very much Star! :smile:

    I remember the thread and it doesn't make sense. Liberals are artists, musicians, poets, songwriters, teachers etc. How do those professions make more money than business managers, stock traders and doctors? Very few liberals (right brainers) actually achieve success in this left brain (conservative) world that we live in. Who is the study counting as conservatives? Trailer dwelling rednecks with junk cars in their front yard?

    It's basically a digression and I don't have the time nor the energy to go down this tangent.

    It does however seem rather incongruous that conservatives would give to charity and then turn right around and enact legislation that continues to show the poor no quarter.

    I don't buy it.
     
  13. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    Likewise, my friend! :wink:



    Also most actors - Ben Affleck, Surandon, Baldwin, Penn, Damon, Clooney, etc. etc. 99% of hugely profitable Hollywood

    producers/directors - Lucas, Spielberg, Mann, et al.

    Singers - Dixie Chicks, Sprinstein, Mellencamp, etc. etc.

    Media ex-Murdoch; NBC, ABC/Cap Cities, CBS, GE, CNN

    Cable/TV - Larry David, talk shows, etc etc.

    Lots of mega-wealthy libs.
     
  14. rangisrovus19

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    There isn't a difference, if you accept the fact that the two-party system is an illusion that creates diversity, so one could feel more independent about themselves.
     
  15. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    They're all rich. None of them are "wealthy". Major difference.
    For more information, let Chris Rock explain it to you.
     
  16. tripod

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    Actually it is ALL an illusion. Independents create the illusion of impartiality that is just as strong as the illusion of the two party system. Plus, a lot of independents are so, mainly out of personal vanity... it feeds a superiority complex to be "above it all" and able to see beyond it. Plus, it's about conservatives vs. liberals, not Republicans vs. Democrats... don't get trapped in that gutter it leads nowhere because there are a SHITLOAD of conservative Democrats. Bill Clinton was VERY conservative and extremely pro-business. Obama is in the same mold. You never saw Bill Clinton do anything for teh poor and Barry isn't doing anythig for them either. Jimmy Carter is the closest thing that we've had to a liberal president. The entire country is basically conservative in nature.

    You obviously don't know any conservatives or liberals... they are as different as night and day. Sure, they might appear similar, but they have very different and opposing thought processes. They also have a dissimilar set of moral concepts and values.
     
  17. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    LOL - yes I know the distinction....also Kat Williams defines it well....

    But Spielberg is a billionaire, Clooney, Affleck, Damon, Denzel all worth over $250 million.


    Dat's wealth, any way you cut it.:wink:
     
  18. B_mitchymo

    B_mitchymo New Member

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    I've said before and i'll say it again. Party politics are bad. Some day, it will be realised slowly that the democracy of the 20th century and early 21st century was good but far from great. The sooner the people have more say the better. Should we do this or should we do that? Let's ask the people after a campaign, after a televised debate, after hearing from experts outside of politics. That is the way it should be and not "we will do this, so please tick a box so we can get into power and do it, thus pissing off the opposition or not doing it and proving ourselves to be as useless as the opposition."
     
  19. ericbythebay

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    Giving blood is a poor metric. Gays can't give blood in the US because of conservatives.
     
  20. ZOS23xy

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    Star, you missed Vietnam. The "police action" started with the republican administration of the 1950's.

    When you have to stretch back to the early 1800's to plump up your figures, you're reaching toooo far.

    Did that Republican---Lincoln--do something liberal--free the slaves? Can't take responsibility there, can you?

    Typed before--and typed again--get real.
     
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