Conservatives, a question for you

steve319

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Originally posted by jonb@Jul 9 2005, 06:04 PM
Marriage has historically and cross-culturally primarily existed for the purpose of forming alliances between families. Capitalism, with its focus on the individual, changed that, except for the upper class.

Within the domain of Western law in particular, the first change was during the Enlightenment when they argued marriages shouldn't be forced. Then in the 1860s women got property rights and that also changed the definition of marriage. Even in the early days of Christianity, the Church redefined marriage by outlawing polygamy to conform to Greco-Roman norms.

Actually, come to think of it, these changes were far more drastic than just changing the genders involved.
[post=327945]Quoted post[/post]​
What? You mean that marriage--wait, let me give it proper respect--MARRIAGE hasn't always been the same, inviolate, God-sanctioned institution throughout the course of human history?

*turns pale*

I always knew that we couldn't trust the sciences, but now we have to choose to ignore history too? Soon we'll have to abandon education altogether if we're going to maintain our own version of the status quo!

Lots of love to Jon tonight. :)
 

madame_zora

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Originally posted by GottaBigOne@Jul 10 2005, 12:02 AM
Madam, thank you for expanding on your beliefs, that was my reason for calling you out, i knew you had it in you. love you baby, love you.
[post=327979]Quoted post[/post]​


ANYTHING for you, baby. But what, no more arguments? Nitpicking? I must have said SOMETHING wrong!
 

Dr Rock

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time for some appropriate words from The One True Lord, Lemmy Himself:

I am the one, Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
my image is of agony; my servants rape the land
obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
my name is called Religion: sadistic, sacred whore

I twist the truth, I rule the world, my crown is called Deceit
I am the emperor of lies; you grovel at my feet
I rob you and I slaughter you, your downfall is my gain
and still you play the sycophant and revel in your pain
and all my promises are lies, all my love is hate
I am the Politician, and I decide your fate
 

madame_zora

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Originally posted by Dr Rock@Jul 10 2005, 12:23 AM
time for some appropriate words from The One True Lord, Lemmy Himself:

I am the one, Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
my image is of agony; my servants rape the land
obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
my name is called Religion: sadistic, sacred whore

I twist the truth, I rule the world, my crown is called Deceit
I am the emperor of lies; you grovel at my feet
I rob you and I slaughter you, your downfall is my gain
and still you play the sycophant and revel in your pain
and all my promises are lies, all my love is hate
I am the Politician, and I decide your fate

[post=327984]Quoted post[/post]​


And truer words have never been spoken. *bangs gavel Romey style*
 

Lex

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What's saddest about this debate are that DINKS are the people who will save our urban areas. They (along with the young, puber progressive artsy crowd) are the people that are moving back into Washington DC, Baltimore, Downtoen Chicago, etc.They have the income, desire to refurbish urban areas. But do we applaud this and celebrate it? No, we run and ignore it. I don't se many neo-conservative living in urban areas and consolidating neighborhood improvement--allthewhile complaining about urban blight, poor schools and astronomical crime rates. It's infuritating.

People need to develop a MUCH stronger sense of invididual security so as to not be SO intensely threatened by the actions of others.

That or ADMIT that this marriage issue (like allother issues in America) is purely an ECONOMIC one disguised as moral and religious bullshit.
 

Onslow

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I can't say as how I am either for or against same gender mergings. I just don't really understand it and if an aging prancing (formerly dancing) queer can't figure a way to get the idea into his brain then how can the rest of the country? I state this country (U.S.A.) specifically since I believe it has something to do with the culture this country has created over the years by being a massive blend of anything and everything. Cultures and diversity also bring about confusion which later needs to be difused and laid bare for fuller understanding and acceptance. Keep in mind though there is hope (I will repeat this again later).

The simple things: Who am I? Well, I'm the gay guy who couldn't figure out homosexuality. Didn't seem to exist or make sense to me. Fact of the matter is I thought all men had sexual thoughts and contact with other men. It never occurred to me that some men didn't. That was the beginning of my disaster--or more precisely a continuance of my errors in life. (not mistakes, just errors associated with my way of thinking--not intentionally right or wrong, just errors due to lack of knowledge and understanding.)

Other simple (or not so simple things): I am a conservative. I do not necessarily mean on a political basis, I am referring to my mental process. How I think. What works with my alleged value system. (I believe we all have alleged value systems since on any given day they can change). My way of thinking stems from an upbringing which screamed liberal thinking. My mother had a child out of wedlock and kept her. My father was of unkown origin and adopted and married my mother and adopted her daughter as his own. My mother was of Jewish heritage. I had a free education, even through college--select the right major, have the right religious background, or any of a number of other variables and you too can get all expenses paid scholarships even to places like Loyola. So I should be a free thinking sort. For some reason I'm not. Sure I want people to have choice, and I do not step in to prevent it from happening, but I am never comfortable with the free choice route. Something somewhere along the way, whether it was the media or other people stepped in to prevent that. Again, conservative as a state of mind not necessarily along the political side--there is a difference.

In 1970 I got married in a church to a nice young lady. You'd be hard pressed to find a nicer, sweeter woman but it didn't matter one bit to me. I was uncomfortable from the start and after 2 children I left. Walked off one afternoon, went to the bar, got drunk, left the bar and got in my car and drove away. A year or so later I contacted her to inform her I wanted a divorce. Short version, we divorced, she re-married and he ended up legally adopting both children. To this day my relationship with them is difficult to say the least.

Marriage number 2 was January 30, 1975(in a courthouse). She was not as much of an interest as the first wife but men were suppposed to get married, weren't they? We had a son and he is a gem. Short version, the marriage ended, she petitioned in the courts and won the right to have my association with them nullified. My son was then given her maiden name as it was figured a bastard child was more desireable than the son of a homosexual. Fortunately, Jimmy was attached to me already and even a name change and my drunken antics did not keep us apart. He was a smart kid and learned my phone number and how to call collect, God bless him. (More accurately God blessed me).

What I am driving at here is that I have always been gay. A homosexual. A queer. A prancing joy-boy. Whatever terminology anyone cares to use, which is precisely one part of this whole matter. People want to get caught up in words. Would I vote for legislation for gay marriage? I do not know. Keep in mind I am gay and I cannot say that I would vote for it. However, I can tell you I would not vote for legislation to ban same sex marriages.
Again, if a gay man cannot completely get a handle on the whole gay marriage thing, how can anyone expect the heterosexual to completely fathom and accept it?

Time. Give it time. Just as others have been able to move forward over time, so too will the homosexuals. Interracial marriage, interfaith marriage, these were not always readily acceptable but today they have moved into a standard and normal existance. It took time. Look back over history. Various ethnic groups and cultures have been squashed and stomped upon for eons. Gradually they move forward. It is not an overnight matter. Keep in mind there is hope. As long as you are alive there is hope.


I will undoubtedly regret this entire post later (or at least parts of it) and it took me a while to respond here mainly because there is no cut and dry answer that I can come up with. When I think marriage, I think union and when I think union I think marriage. If two invoices are merged to become one bill they are referred to as being married. (Hey Otis marry these 2 invoices, the client only wants 1) So we can marry invoices but not two men or two women? We can call it a union and that's okay? Interesting. What's really in a word anyway? The value of a word is what we make it. If I allow a word to gnaw and nibble away at my core that is my choice, I do not have to give it that power. As for legalities, remember There is hope for equality for all, just don't toss in the towel.
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by Steve26@Jul 9 2005, 03:30 PM
The argument equating marriage with childrearing is spurious, if not disingenuous. My wife and I are unsure whether we will decide to have children (largely for health reasons -- she is diabetic so pregnancy would be risky); does this mean that we don't deserve to be married? How about people who are infertile, or those who are beyond the age of childbearing -- should they be barred from marrying? Would you deny my diabetic wife and I our marriage, or my 80-year-old grandmother her remarriage after the death of my grandfather?

Steve
[post=327920]Quoted post[/post]​
Steve, dude, you are awesome. Thanks. I've had the childbearing and raising issue spewed at me so many times it's just disgusting. NO, of course that does not mean that you should not have been allowed to marry the love of your life, whether you can or cannot have a biological child of your own, and whether or not you decide to adopt. A kiss to your wife and a big bear hug to you.
 

DC_DEEP

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Originally posted by Onslow@Jul 10 2005, 07:26 AM
Again, if a gay man cannot completely get a handle on the whole gay marriage thing, how can anyone expect the heterosexual to completely fathom and accept it?

Time. Give it time. Just as others have been able to move forward over time, so too will the homosexuals. Interracial marriage, interfaith marriage, these were not always readily acceptable but today they have moved into a standard and normal existance. It took time. Look back over history. Various ethnic groups and cultures have been squashed and stomped upon for eons. Gradually they move forward. It is not an overnight matter. Keep in mind there is hope. As long as you are alive there is hope.


I will undoubtedly regret this entire post later (or at least parts of it) and it took me a while to respond here mainly because there is no cut and dry answer that I can come up with. When I think marriage, I think union and when I think union I think marriage. If two invoices are merged to become one bill they are referred to as being married. (Hey Otis marry these 2 invoices, the client only wants 1) So we can marry invoices but not two men or two women? We can call it a union and that's okay? Interesting. What's really in a word anyway? The value of a word is what we make it. If I allow a word to gnaw and nibble away at my core that is my choice, I do not have to give it that power. As for legalities, remember There is hope for equality for all, just don't toss in the towel.
[post=328034]Quoted post[/post]​
Onslow, thank you for a moving and informative and enlightening post. If you don't mind me saying so, this is the first one of yours I have seen that is not bitter and mean-spirited. I hope that eventually, things work out so that you can have some sort of good relationship with your children.

Three points I would like to make here... number one is, if you had not been so adamantly programmed to be "hetero," do you think you would have married either of those women? Number two is, do you think that your difficulty fathoming same-gender marriage is just because of your conditioned response to the marriages you were in? Sort of a negative reinforcement thing?

Number three is going to be much more fun for the semantically-oriented folks.. I had never really thought about the marriage/union thing before, but it brings up an interesting point... if we gays are granted our rights through a union, rather than a marriage, ponder this point. Go ahead and use the "traditionally one man one woman" definition for marriage, and then use the traditional definition for union when you give it to us queers. Uh, by the way, union is traditionally more than one (the state of the union address addresses 50 states. how many members in the United Auto Wokers Union?) Just a thought.
 

steve319

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Originally posted by Steve26@Jul 9 2005, 03:30 PM
The argument equating marriage with childrearing is spurious, if not disingenuous. My wife and I are unsure whether we will decide to have children (largely for health reasons -- she is diabetic so pregnancy would be risky); does this mean that we don't deserve to be married? How about people who are infertile, or those who are beyond the age of childbearing -- should they be barred from marrying? Would you deny my diabetic wife and I our marriage, or my 80-year-old grandmother her remarriage after the death of my grandfather?
[post=327920]Quoted post[/post]​
It's a ludicrous notion, isn't it? And horrifying if we consider it for a moment.

My roommate for my last couple of years of college (probably the most genuinely kind person you could ever meet) and his wife discovered that they would be unable to conceive children of their own. Now, if I know anyone who was just meant to be a father, it's Trent, yet biological issues complicated that process. They love one another and deserve the happiness that they have found together, making a great "team" and contributing to the development of their community through lots of outreach work. And they have found personal meaning and fulfillment through the institution of marriage. Who would insinuate that the bond they share is any less valid or that they aren't deserving of the societal "stamp of approval" that is marriage? Ridiculous.

Yet we as a society make that same determination for same sex couples, claiming that biology has made the decision for us.

Steve, your situation reminds me of my nephew. His wife has struggled with diabetes her whole life; she and I were buddies in school and I remember her daily injections, the occasional collapses, and a few extended absences from school due to her illness. She and Darryl knew from day one that bearing their own children would not be an option. Yet marriage has proven to be a tremendously positive step for both of them. (And after several successful years of marriage, they have adopted an adorable little boy--so you never know what the future holds. ;) )

Onslow, I have to admit that your post made me a bit misty-eyed. (Big Softie Alert!) Poignant stuff. I hope you're right--that positive change will come. Maybe we'll all live to see it. And THANKS for sharing your story. I'm sure you know that your own experiences could mean a lot to other people here who have struggled. I wish you the best. :)
 

dcjohnny

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Originally posted by Steve26@Jul 8 2005, 01:44 PM
I am married and do not find any of the standard anti-gay marriage arguments to be particularly compelling. I do not feel that my relationship with my wife or the "sanctity" of our marriage is compromised in any way by gay couples who care to marry. In fact, I feel that "the institution of marriage" is strengthened by having as many people as possible (including gays) join in it.

I live in New Hampshire but work in Massachusetts, so I know a fair number of married gay couples. Contrary to the occasional "sky is falling" rhetoric from defenders of traditional marriage, the presence of gay marriages here has not caused any kind of massive societal breakdown, as far as I can discern. The gays I know who have married are deeply, deeply committed to each other, having been together decades in many cases. I suspect that they are on balance more reverent toward marriage and more committed to their vows than the average straight couple, if only because these rights have been so long coming.

If anything, I feel that marriage is cheapened these days primarily by straight couples who treat marriages as disposable. It's individuals like Britney Spears, with her drunken 55-hour marriage, politicians who jump from marriage to marriage, and assorted other B-list celebs who wed for PR purposes whose actions serve to trivialize and mock marriage. With the US divorce rate way up into the double digits, it seems to me that straight couples, not gays, are the ones who need lecturing on the "sanctity" of marriage. (Sorry, fellow straights, but you have to admit that our track record in this regard leaves much to be desired.)

Any kind of anti-gay marriage argument that basically boils down to "this is the way it's always been" doesn't hold any water for me either, as even conservatives would have to agree that societal norms evolve with time. I don't know of anyone who still advocates that woman or blacks are the property of white men, views that are "traditional" in that they were once widespread. Society evolves, and just as most people today would not wish to turn back the clock to the blatant racism and sexism of past decades, it seems arbitrary to decide that we should halt social progress and regress to the values that predominated at some random point in the past -- which is essentially the request of most who argue in our current political climate on behalf of "traditional" values.

Just my two cents' worth ...

Steve :)
[post=327658]Quoted post[/post]​

Steve -- THANK YOU SO MUCH for your well-reasoned and extemely lucid statement!! This, to me at any rate, is exactly the kind of discourse our friend was trying to engender. Well done, sir!
 

Freddie53

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Originally posted by Onslow@Jul 10 2005, 06:26 AM
[post=328034]Quoted post[/post]​
Onslow,

That was a wonderful post. It was from the heart. It let us see the real you. You should be highly commended for baring you soul to the world. That is almost like standing nude in a stadium where everyone is clothed.

I just realized that we aren't that different in age. I saw a lot of wisdom. And I understand what you mean. I thought in my early years that mutual jerking off and male only activities like that were OK as long as you didn't have anal sex or kissing. or have a romantic relationship.

Again, I feel like I know you now.

Freddie
 

jonb

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The whole gay marriage thing boils down to a few simple facts:

1. Some people just fall in love with members of the same sex.
2. Some people don't like this; these people tend to be fanatical.
3. Bush needs something to distract from the Iraq war and the economy.
4. Further, someone with Bush's economic stances could never win without the fanatics.
 

absinthium

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Originally posted by ChimeraTX+Jul 9 2005, 11:36 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimeraTX &#064; Jul 9 2005, 11:36 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dr Rock@Jul 9 2005, 07:23 PM
time for some appropriate words from The One True Lord, Lemmy Himself:

I am the one, Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
my image is of agony; my servants rape the land
obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
my name is called Religion: sadistic, sacred whore

I twist the truth, I rule the world, my crown is called Deceit
I am the emperor of lies; you grovel at my feet
I rob you and I slaughter you, your downfall is my gain
and still you play the sycophant and revel in your pain
and all my promises are lies, all my love is hate
I am the Politician, and I decide your fate

[post=327984]Quoted post[/post]​

You never quit do you? :eyes:
[post=328003]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]


If he did, would ANY of us have any fun?
 

madame_zora

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Originally posted by ChimeraTX+Jul 11 2005, 02:53 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ChimeraTX &#064; Jul 11 2005, 02:53 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-absinthium@Jul 10 2005, 06:42 PM
If he did, would ANY of us have any fun?
[post=328127]Quoted post[/post]​
We&#39;ll never know. :evilgrin:
[post=328174]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]


I, for one, am grateful for the instigators. Chimera, where would I be if YOU weren&#39;t around to take shots at? :D
 

Chicago_Swimmer

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I&#39;m a moderate not a conservative nor a liberal. There should be a clarification, if it hasn&#39;t been made already. G. Bush was quite happy, and stated so, to provide gay couples recognized civil unions. This recognition would offer all the same rights as married people, including tax laws. The objection was simply that it would not called marriage. Poor Bush, the conservatives killed him for this view and the liberals distorted what he said.

What I noticed the liberals did, however, was lumped that objection to calling it marriage meant all the perks as well. It did not.

In this instance, I happen to agree with President Bush. Civil unions should be awarded to gay couples which affords them all the legal rights and responsibilities that a marriage does. There is no reason, however, to call it a marriage which has always been recognized as a union between a man and a woman.

The questions that should be asked is whether or not gay unions be afforded all the civil rights men and women have in marriage. My answer, which I&#39;ll add again is the same view as Bush, is yes. The question of whether or not to call these civil rights marriage or not, I believe, is a semantic question that individuals should answer for themselves.

Respectfully,
Robert