Conservatives, a question for you

[smallman]

im a conservative but have NO problem with gay marriage.

 

[chimes]

I consider myself fiscially conservative, which leads me to be socially progressive. I beleive that in order to be economical, we have to carefully invest in programs that may be socially hot issues, but will lead to widespread benefits, like stem cell cloning.

w00t, first post!

 

[madame_zora]

Welcome, Chimes! Chime in anytime (sorry for the dumb joke).

Fiscally conservative leads to being socially progressive? I'll buy that, I'm pretty close to there myself.

 

[13788]

orionsword57:

Originally posted by madame_zora@Jul 23 2005, 05:00 PM
Calebshung, stop reprinting whole posts for one goddamned sentence. Stop spamming the entire board with nonsense. Participate where you have something useful to contribute or shut the fuck up!

[post=331215]Quoted post[/post]​

IGNORE... IGNORE... IGNORE!

 

[smallman]

I'm not real religious, but apart from religion I can't see a reason to be moral. This is not to say that religions are correct, I'm just saying that my standards of morality tend to rely on if I can get away with it.

 

[Dr Rock]

systems of morals and ethics are for morons who can't figure out how to behave properly on their own.

 

[chimes]

Originally posted by Dr Rock@Jul 29 2005, 05:57 AM
systems of morals and ethics are for morons who can't figure out how to behave properly on their own.

[post=332896]Quoted post[/post]​

That's too true. Organized religion or ethics is not an adequate replacement for basic common sense.

 

[steve319]

Originally posted by Dr Rock@Jul 29 2005, 07:57 AM
systems of morals and ethics are for morons who can't figure out how to behave properly on their own.

[post=332896]Quoted post[/post]​

And, well, let's just admit it: we have plenty of folks who fit that description.

Maybe it's worth the ugly tradeoffs to have ministers out there scaring them into submission...

OK, maybe not...

 

[Dr Rock]

Originally posted by steve319+Jul 31 2005, 12:39 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(steve319 &#064; Jul 31 2005, 12:39 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Dr Rock@Jul 29 2005, 07:57 AM
systems of morals and ethics are for morons who can&#39;t figure out how to behave properly on their own.

[post=332896]Quoted post[/post]​

And, well, let&#39;s just admit it: we have plenty of folks who fit that description.

[post=333523]Quoted post[/post]​

[/b][/quote]
yep. if we started getting rid of them instead of pandering to their congenital idiocy, we&#39;d soon see an improvement in human relations (nevermind the human gene pool).

 

[madame_zora]

Here&#39;s a thought on general morality.

Saturday night the brakes went out in my car and I had to crash into a dumpster to stop it. Duly shaken, I called a tow truck to come get me. Being that I was not in my hometown and didn&#39;t know where to go, I asked the guy if he knew anyone who fixed brakes, so he took me to a friend of his, a Mexican guy who spoke very little English.

Now, to get the full picture, you have to know that the tow truck looked like it shouldn&#39;t be running, the guy was a crusty looking redneck with long white hair and no teeth. His friend&#39;s house was a hovel and he had several cars on blocks in the backyard where he did his work. Tony (the towing guy) then proceeded to tell me I owed him &#036;60 for the tow, but not to pay him until I knew how much it would cost to fix the brakes, as I had told him exactly how much money I had on me. He then took me all over town during the course of the day, which was now Sunday, to seven different auto parts stores to get all the parts I needed, bought me lunch, took me to his house (also a hovel) so I could take a nap, made me coffee and never once complained about the pain in the ass I obviously was in his life. Then he drove me past several strip clubs on his side of town that I didn&#39;t know about so I could make more money when my car was working again.
During the course of the day, he told me stories of his drunken adventures interspersed with stories of the misfortunes of others he had helped so as to make me feel better about my own situation.

This man lived in a house that was not square or level. The roof leaked. He had VERY modest furnishings and very little food in the fridge. He did, however, have a large bag of dogfood and plenty of water for his dogs, and a big puddle in the front yard that he kept full with the garden hose for the neighborhood squirrels who might be hot in the summer sun. Several people of questionable character stopped by asking if he had any odd jobs for them to do- he directed them to whatever friend they were suited to work for. Many of these people were obviously dependant on him for their meals.

Overwhelmed by my experience with the generousity of the human spirit, I told this story to a friend of mine when I got back home, and he immediately asked me if I prayed, because I had just met an angel. This man was no angel&#33; For some reason, that just rubbed me the wrong way. This was a human being, who made the choices he did because it was his will to do so. He had other options, he CHOSE to do good, because that is simply how he lived his life.

I think it&#39;s sad that we tell our children that Santa Claus brought them presents on Christmas rather than telling them "I bought these things for you because I love you". That day, I was struck by the fact that this man showed me kindness because he was a good man, not because he feared God. Truth is, I don&#39;t imagine he was very religious at all or it would have come up in the ten hours we spent together.
Before I left that day, he lent me &#036;20 in addition to everything else he had done so I could get dinner and smokes.

Many who love God would have done exactly the same thing, but many would have done far less. I don&#39;t know what I&#39;d have done myself. On a good day, I&#39;d have helped out, although I doubt I&#39;d have gone that far. What&#39;s clear to me is that religion and morality are not synonymous, you can have one without the other, in either direction. It would have been easy to dismiss this weather-worn, booze guzzling guy as a creep if I had judged by appearances only, passed him off as a loser from looking at his house and cars- but this was a genuinely decent person who lived in abundance from his perspective, because all his needs were met and he had plenty to share and the will to do so. What could be more Christ-like than the kindness to a stranger this man showed me?

So, the brakes are fixed, I spent about three hundred dollars less than I would have had I gone to a shop. I now know a mechanic I couldn&#39;t have spoken to otherwise, I have two new clubs to sell my wares in. I got Tony&#39;s phone number because I talked to a drunk in a bar about my car- a manic depressive sociopath who was contemplating suicide and came there to escape his house. He bought some outfits from me that night, and I would have neither had the money to fix my brakes that were to go out only an hour later nor Tony&#39;s number had it not been for him. So who is moral? Is it the man who looks good but talks down his nose at you, or the man who is desperately struggling, but does good anyway?

 

[Freddie53]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Aug 9 2005, 02:16 PM
Here&#39;s a thought on general morality.

Saturday night the brakes went out in my car and I had to crash into a dumpster to stop it.
Now, to get the full picture, you have to know that the tow truck looked like it shouldn&#39;t be running, the guy was a crusty looking redneck with long white hair and no teeth. His friend&#39;s house was a hovel and he had several cars on blocks in the backyard where he did his work.

This man lived in a house that was not square or level. The roof leaked. He had VERY modest furnishings and very little food in the fridge. Several people of questionable character stopped by asking if he had any odd jobs for them to do- he directed them to whatever friend they were suited to work for. Many of these people were obviously dependant on him for their meals.

Overwhelmed by my experience with the generousity of the human spirit, I told this story to a friend of mine when I got back home, and he immediately asked me if I prayed, because I had just met an angel. This man was no angel&#33; For some reason, that just rubbed me the wrong way. This was a human being, who made the choices he did because it was his will to do so. He had other options, he CHOSE to do good, because that is simply how he lived his life.

That day, I was struck by the fact that this man showed me kindness because he was a good man, not because he feared God.

Many who love God would have done exactly the same thing, but many would have done far less. I don&#39;t know what I&#39;d have done myself. On a good day, I&#39;d have helped out, although I doubt I&#39;d have gone that far. What&#39;s clear to me is that religion and morality are not synonymous, you can have one without the other, in either direction. It would have been easy to dismiss this weather-worn, booze guzzling guy as a creep if I had judged by appearances only, passed him off as a loser from looking at his house and cars- but this was a genuinely decent person who lived in abundance from his perspective, because all his needs were met and he had plenty to share and the will to do so. What could be more Christ-like than the kindness to a stranger this man showed me?

So, the brakes are fixed, I spent about three hundred dollars less than I would have had I gone to a shop. I now know a mechanic I couldn&#39;t have spoken to otherwise, I have two new clubs to sell my wares in. I got Tony&#39;s phone number because I talked to a drunk in a bar about my car- a manic depressive sociopath who was contemplating suicide and came there to escape his house. He bought some outfits from me that night, and I would have neither had the money to fix my brakes that were to go out only an hour later nor Tony&#39;s number had it not been for him. So who is moral? Is it the man who looks good but talks down his nose at you, or the man who is desperately struggling, but does good anyway?

[post=334020]Quoted post[/post]​

Jana,

What a touching story. I have had times in my life when I wondered if the person were a real human being or an angel. God is a loving God. He sends all of us on rescue missions. Some of us obey and some do not. You helped rescue a guy contemplating suicide. You were an "angel" for that person. So it doesn&#39;t matter if it is a celestial being or a human, most of the time I think people are being directed by God. A little voice in the head that says something. Some call it your conscience. Maybe it is. All I know is that producing good produces more good and producing bad produces even more bad. We pass one or the other along life&#39;s way. It is our choice.

Once we had a guy come to church needing money. Foolishly one of our members sent him on his way. Out the door he stole an older ladies purse. My wife was upset. She said and didn&#39;t mince her words. It was our fault. The man was desperate. Had we befriended him, he would not have stolen the purse. So church policy was immediately changed. (You really don&#39;t won&#39;t to deal with my wife on an issue such as this and expect to win.)

There was a change of heart on the part of that man and some other members.

Just recently, my brother&#39;s car wouldn&#39;t start. I came to his car with battery cables in tow. Just then, I man in an old car drove up, he stopped. At first I thought he was a customer at the cafe where the car was parked. No, he saw someone in distress and stopped to help. Was he dressed well? I&#39;m sure he had a blue collor job and was dressed for hard work and was finishing his shift. He knew much about cars and suggested what the problem was and he was right. We thanked him and we all went out own way.

It is our choice whether to pass on generosity or greed. But make no mistake about it which ever we pass on goes on and on until it is changed for the better or changed for the worse by someone down the line. It is a cycle that goes on and on.

Do I think God really sends people to help others in trouble? Yes I do and it doesn&#39;t matter whether you are Christian, religious, non religious are atheistic, I think that small voice in your head sometimes just speaks and says "Go down that road" and down that road is where you see the need. Call it ESP if you wish. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Thanks Jana, for posting such a wonderful story. It tells how we really should treat each other.

 

[Pecker]

You are right, Jana. You didn&#39;t meet an angel.

You met Christ himself.

 

[madame_zora]

Originally posted by Pecker@Aug 9 2005, 08:55 PM
You are right, Jana. You didn&#39;t meet an angel.

You met Christ himself.

[post=334058]Quoted post[/post]​

Maybe so Pecker. Or Mother Teresa, or Mahatma Ghandi, or the Buddha, or just some drunk named Tony whose will it was to help me that day. For me the main thing is that I keep looking inside people, I was rewarded for that by getting to know what I consider some spectacular people. I think these people are all around us if we just open our eyes. I doubt Jesus was a vision of extreme physical beauty, no doubt he looked like a pretty rough unshaven guy in a dirty robe and sandals. I wonder how people would react to him now, preaching in the streets without a home or way to feed himself or his crew? How eager would any of us be to take in a band of travelling vagabonds who were promoting ideas that were contrary to what we&#39;d been taught? Telling us our leaders were not to be trusted? Claiming to be the Son of God himself? We have Pharisees right now in our churches and no one has the audacity of Christ to throw them out, even though we know it needs to be done.

So maybe I can&#39;t change the world, I can usually give a bum a dollar or buy a hungry guy a sandwich. The next time someone laughs at me for contributing to someone&#39;s drinking or drug habit, I can remember that despite their flaws, all people are deserving of having their needs met, just as I am. I can remember that huge generousity was shown me by those less fortunate, so when it&#39;s my turn I hope to be equal to the task. I only hope I have not fared so badly thus far.

 

[Onslow]

Originally posted by madame_zora@Aug 9 2005, 09:19 PM
So maybe I can&#39;t change the world, I can usually give a bum a dollar or buy a hungry guy a sandwich. The next time someone laughs at me for contributing to someone&#39;s drinking or drug habit, I can remember that despite their flaws, all people are deserving of having their needs met, just as I am. I can remember that huge generousity was shown me by those less fortunate, so when it&#39;s my turn I hope to be equal to the task. I only hope I have not fared so badly thus far.

[post=334068]Quoted post[/post]​

Words to live by--and for the record you never know when buying a hungry guy a sandwich might save the world. Who knows, maybe if you don&#39;t help him he dies and his one remaining relative goes mad from it and kills off the person who had just found the method for bringing about world peace and then another person sets off a series of nuclear explosions. Not saying it would happen, just one of many scenarios that play out in my head whenever a person asks for help.

 

[GottaBigOne]

Thank you freddie for your kind words, and I hope that if there is a god, he is the god you describe. But I would like to point out that I did not say that ALL christians only do good because they fear god, I actually made it a point to say that I think most people do good because of their own reasons but have a hard time separating the two as in Jana&#39;s example that people thought she met an angel and not a human. A good human is such a foreign idea to some people that they can&#39;t separate god from it.

 

[madame_zora]

Yes GBO, that was my point, but I&#39;ll even take it a step further. Many people are so eager to attribute anything good to God that they neglect to see the good in human beings, in their frailty. That&#39;s what I meant about Santa Claus- we do a disservice to human nature when we quickly deny any value of people and say it could have only come from God. If God is real, he made humans in his likeness, so it wouldn&#39;t be so hard to imagine that we are capable of good as well as evil. The examples of men and women I gave were those of human beings who did great good, sometimes just because that was what they wanted to do.

Talk about idealism, I still believe most PEOPLE are good- white men, black men, Asian men, women and children of all races and ideologies, Christians, Islamics, Hindus. We all want good things for our children, we all want to survive. Chimera is good more than he is evil because he wants these same things, he just looks at it differently than I do. The problem is right now, in this country, many people who are in positions of power are not promoting ideologies of goodness, even though perhaps they have good in them as well. This isn&#39;t so surprising because it is the nature of power to corrupt, but why listen to corrupt ideas? We have the capability to discern one thing from the other, nay the responsibility to do so. I think the greatest evil going on right now may very well be our slothfulness at not putting an end to the disruptions of truth and goodness.

I find these ideas to be self-evident, but if someone does not, it doesn&#39;t really matter. We have enough proof to the point already. Most of our cities are integrated and working fairly well, all things considered. It takes time, but Julianna will never see some of the things I&#39;ve experienced because slowly people who think badly and wrong are retiring, dying off and being replaced by younger minds with fresher ideas- they simply won&#39;t tolerate the idiocies of the past to govern their futures. Change happens slowly, but it happens nonetheless. Those who oppose these things also serve their purpose, if only to alert the rest of us that there is still so much hard work to be done.

 

[Ecchi]

When people realize sex and lust and such things are not the root of all evil and will not destroy the world, then all will be well.

To me that&#39;s all it boils down to, at least in this country.

I know my view is simple, but by the Goddess, who I chose to have sex with and love in my life hurts NO ONE, as long as I respect and cherish the love I am given.

I&#39;m obviously not a Christian, but from what I have read about God and Jesus, they did not seem to care what we did with our lives and each other, provided we did not hard each other, and did out best to help each other.

The bible itself is a series of archaic writings from several different men, and looking at it objectively you see differences of opinions and ideas from chapter to chapter. Look at the various well known priests and preachers and popes and churches that pop up with all sorts of different ideals and interpretations.

I&#39;m not trying to insult anybody&#39;s beliefs or religion, but if your religion, if your views are leading you to disdain someone so irrationally, then you really need to question how you look at life.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Still some excellent posts coming in on this thread. Thank you all.