Coronavirus Covid-19

rbkwp

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cant quite believe that dands,going by reports,plus the UK Govt proposing a month lockdown,countrywide
either way,very sad indeed

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dandelion said: ↑
Cases in N England falling. cases in england overall falling. Cases in scotland falling, wales neutral, N.ireland neutral. Total of people in hospital actually just fell too. Deaths been way below government predictions.
 
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dandelion

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cant quite believe that dands,going by reports,plus the UK Govt proposing a month lockdown,countrywide
either way,very sad indeed
Kings app reported another days falling numbers yesterday. It isnt alone, government testing numbers are doing the same. theres a huge row why the government announcement used claims of how many would be dying in a months time which were already out of date and newer ones had already been published which showed lower estimates. These were for only 1/4 the deaths, but since this is a falling trend of cases, it is still likely to be an overestimate.

More news reported today said in some hospitals where covid is worst, half of their covid patients caught covid in the hospital. Nationally its at about 18% assumed to have done so because they got it 7 days or more after admission. Which suggests quite a few more likely to have fone so if they dont stay there long enough for it to show.

But that doesnt necessarily mean they are seriously ill with covid. go in with cancer and officially die form covid. I use that example because it is precisely what happened to someone i know of whi just fird where I live. terminal cancer, death certificate says covid.

What this means is, take the covid hospital cases and subtract 1/5. It might mean take covid deaths and subtract 1/5

There is no justification for lockdown now in the UK. The claims for one are fake propaganda supported by the government.
 
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g0nz0

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There is no justification for lockdown now in the UK. The claims for one are fake propaganda supported by the government.

This is veering into wacky conspiracy theory nonsense, almost at QAnon type levels.

I believe in the wisdom of the masses. Larger groups usually make better decisions than individuals.

I don't believe that the majority of government cabinets across multiple countries who are deciding to do "circuit-breakers" and other types of sharp short-term lock downs when presented with the scientific evidence (that the majority of the public do not have full access to) are doing so out of some fake propaganda agenda.

Neither do I believe that the scientific evidence is being actively falsified in most places.

Hanlon's razor is a principle that you should never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence or stupidity. Perhaps the evidence is being incorrectly collected, but I doubt it. Either way, there isn't a fake propaganda conspiracy behind most of this.

Specifically with the UK, Boris downplayed the virus (populist style), contracted it, nearly died for it (despite the Tory press machine claiming the opposite at the time), and now is playing a much more cautious game. Sounds mostly fair enough to me, except for the fact that they're still quite slow in reacting, and as a result are needing to lockdown harder and for longer.

(Caveat: Trump's administration in the US is a huge outlier here, mostly because it is in direct conflict with all of the Public Health Officials, and due to the fact that Trump has violently politicized the coronavirus and mask wearing, and candidly admitted as much to Bob Woodward)
 

g0nz0

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This is veering into wacky conspiracy theory nonsense, almost at QAnon type levels.

I believe in the wisdom of the masses. Larger groups usually make better decisions than individuals.

I don't believe that the majority of government cabinets across multiple countries who are deciding to do "circuit-breakers" and other types of sharp short-term lock downs when presented with the scientific evidence (that the majority of the public do not have full access to) are doing so out of some fake propaganda agenda.

Neither do I believe that the scientific evidence is being actively falsified in most places.

Hanlon's razor is a principle that you should never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence or stupidity. Perhaps the evidence is being incorrectly collected, but I doubt it. Either way, there isn't a fake propaganda conspiracy behind most of this.

Specifically with the UK, Boris downplayed the virus (populist style), contracted it, nearly died for it (despite the Tory press machine claiming the opposite at the time), and now is playing a much more cautious game. Sounds mostly fair enough to me, except for the fact that they're still quite slow in reacting, and as a result are needing to lockdown harder and for longer.

(Caveat: Trump's administration in the US is a huge outlier here, mostly because it is in direct conflict with all of the Public Health Officials, and due to the fact that Trump has violently politicized the coronavirus and mask wearing, and candidly admitted as much to Bob Woodward)

NHS in England to go back to highest alert level as Covid patient numbers rise

NHS emergency: Alert raised to worst-case LEVEL 4 as coronavirus cases erupt across UK
 

dandelion

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I believe in the wisdom of the masses.
Well I dont. Real benficial innovations are always one person's bright idea.

I don't believe that the majority of government cabinets across multiple countries who are deciding to do "circuit-breakers" and other types of sharp short-term lock downs when presented with the scientific evidence (that the majority of the public do not have full access to) are doing so out of some fake propaganda agenda.
Scientists started off giving the best advice they could, based upon what the WHO told them. This was essentially what the chinese government told them. I expect other experts around the world said the same as UK sage, 'dont know really'. 'best guess is do like WHO say'. Truth is experts just gave general advice.

The advice was wrong because the Chinese reported very high death rates. These have never happened anywhere on earth. Mild cases of covid werent even recognised at the start, so once you add them in mortality and severity tumble. It is nothing like as dangerous as first reported. People had immunity before all this began, from exposure to related viruses (and possibly from some common vaccines for other diseases). The information given to all countries at the start was simply wrong.

Now the problem is how to admit this advice was wrong. Say 'terribly sorry, you locked down for no good reason and it did more harm than good'. Great political message!

In my local hospital in a case I know of, someone just died from cancer. No question, nothing could have been done. the death cert says covid death. This person will be listed amongst the national deaths due to covid. it absoultely wasnt. It was probably caught in hospital after admission and didnt affect treatment.

Usage of the NHS is no higher at the moment than would be expected at this time of year. Nationaly 20% of covid cases in hospital are being caught in hospital, rising to 50% in the most affected areas. This isnt an overload with people suffereing from covid but ordinary cases who happen to have it but it isnt making them ill.
 

g0nz0

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Well I dont. Real benficial innovations are always one person's bright idea.

Not at all true. By far the vast vast bulk of innovation, of human technological and scientific progress, is based on evolution - small innovations and refinements of previous knowledge and ideas (often insightful or non-obvious).

Revolutionary new ideas are rather uncommon.

Darwin's Theory of Evolution, seen by many as revolutionary, depended strongly on his inspiration from work of James Hutton and Charles Lyell.

What is vastly more common than revolutionary ideas is the Law of Eponymous Adage - Stigler's law of eponymy - Wikipedia - that is, misattribution of the inventorship of an idea.

Most inventions aren't invented by the credited inventors. There are usually large troves of untold heroes and contributors along the way. Thomas Edison didn't invent the electric light bulb. Alexander Graham Bell didn't invent the telephone...

So it might sound romantic and enticing to think we have the singular minds with revolutionary ideas... but they are rather like unicorns.
 

dandelion

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g0nz0

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Kings college phone App, Uk cases falling. https://covid-assets.joinzoe.com/latest/covid_symptom_study_report.pdf

lginform government website showing cases for england flattening off. COVID-19 Cases Tracker - Overview for England | LG Inform

Article here arguing that vaccines wont work for the elderly who are at risk from covid. Bit of a problem, that. Coronavirus Vaccines May Not Work for the Elderly—and This Lab Aims to Change That

Positive rates in England increasing amongst those tested, suggesting lack of tesing, not falling numbers.

"Detections of Covid-19 cases in England remained high in week 44. Case detections decreased slightly compared to last week though this is likely to be driven by reduced testing over the half term period as well as a lag in results for the most recent days. Overall positivity rates continued to increase"​

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../Weekly_Flu_and_COVID-19_report_w45_FINAL.PDF
 
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dandelion

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Positive rates in England increasing amongst those tested, suggesting lack of tesing, not falling numbers.
So what? What does that actually mean? There is some evidence lcokdown measures have shrunk numbers of many colds and flus we would expect to be seeing. A bigger proportion are therefore covid, against which measures arent working so well. Testing inrtructions last I heard were to only test people with symptoms. So if you only test those with some sort of symptons, and the number of other similar diseases is falling, then more will be covid.
 

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So what? What does that actually mean? There is some evidence lcokdown measures have shrunk numbers of many colds and flus we would expect to be seeing. A bigger proportion are therefore covid, against which measures arent working so well. Testing inrtructions last I heard were to only test people with symptoms. So if you only test those with some sort of symptons, and the number of other similar diseases is falling, then more will be covid.

So what? You claimed UK cases are falling. I'm pointing out that the UK government provides an explanation for that, and its likely to be lower testing rather than infection rates really falling. That's the so what.
 

seventiesdemon

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So what? What does that actually mean? There is some evidence lcokdown measures have shrunk numbers of many colds and flus we would expect to be seeing. A bigger proportion are therefore covid, against which measures arent working so well. Testing inrtructions last I heard were to only test people with symptoms. So if you only test those with some sort of symptons, and the number of other similar diseases is falling, then more will be covid.
I have to ask, why are you only concerned with the financial outcome?

Just say you worked in health. Yes, many would agree that death mostly comes to the aged in our community. It's very similar to Thatcherism, where death will only come to industry which is not profitable.

But....you seem to overlook the burden mass infection can bring to a health system, short term as well as long term. https://www.who.int/docs/default-so...e-36-long-term-symptoms.pdf?sfvrsn=5d3789a6_2

You continually fail to recognise long term issues on the health system of a nation. I can't understand where your perceptions derive from. One thing you need to realise is that your economy will fail if you do not gain control. Your nation along with others who do not find the need to control, or try to, will be isolated from the rest of the world until you do.

Your government there is as undecided on how to act as they are on Brexit. I can see now future episodes of Dr Who incorporating mass virus infection by Dialects :)

You seem to cling to a belief that is against everything I have observed you have written in political forums years past, and I am wondering why? Humans do not survive on financial outcome, they never have, or will.

If you have a cure for human stupidity and lies, those who have no regard for others. If you have a cure all for their actions, you take full responsibility for such and your decisions....then say so. If not, stop defending your argument which goes around and around in circles with no predictable or guaranteed outcome.

If not....you are as in the shadows as we all are.
 

dandelion

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So what? You claimed UK cases are falling. I'm pointing out that the UK government provides an explanation for that, and its likely to be lower testing rather than infection rates really falling.
testing has never fallen since this began. its increase by x100. So to make a fair comparison between sping and now, or at least more fair, multiply case numbers then x100 to get something more comparable to the testing regime now.

King's app doesnt rely on testing, also says cases falling. ONS study which does use testing but uses a random sample, says rise has slowed. Whats interesting amongst these is that kings is showing the slowest rates, but it is confined to cases with symptoms, because people have to report themselves sick. React 1 study from another university found a big growth in asymptomatic cases.

All these are quite consistent if we assume symptomatic cases are falling off but asymptomatic are rising. Thats excellent news and suggests the epidemic is ending. You dont die if you dont get symptoms.
 

dandelion

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King's app today reporting cases continuing to fall. https://covid-assets.joinzoe.com/latest/covid_symptom_study_report.pdf

Down some 1500 daily cases average since yesterday.

R value for UK quoted as 1.0, but since cases are falling it must actually be below that, but they only quote to the nearest 0.1.

Some places cases have been falling for weeks, heres the lginform website showing government test datae for liverpool. cases been falling for 4 weeks. COVID-19 Cases Tracker - Quick View for Liverpool | LG Inform

Or manchester where cases essentially flat for 5 weeks. COVID-19 Cases Tracker - Quick View for Manchester | LG Inform

Basically, yes, government has called a lockdown despite the epidemic already having passed its peak. Not so much a peak really as what happened was they sent youngsters back to school and because they had been isolated before they hadnt caught covid so they did now. Now they have had it and are getting largely immune, cases are falling away again. Once they have all had it, that seems to me likely most of the nation will have done so. Its all over.
 
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Scarletbegonia

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testing has never fallen since this began. its increase by x100. So to make a fair comparison between sping and now, or at least more fair, multiply case numbers then x100 to get something more comparable to the testing regime now.

King's app doesnt rely on testing, also says cases falling. ONS study which does use testing but uses a random sample, says rise has slowed. Whats interesting amongst these is that kings is showing the slowest rates, but it is confined to cases with symptoms, because people have to report themselves sick. React 1 study from another university found a big growth in asymptomatic cases.

All these are quite consistent if we assume symptomatic cases are falling off but asymptomatic are rising. Thats excellent news and suggests the epidemic is ending. You dont die if you dont get symptoms.

the word “cases” relies on testing. If testing protocols have changed (as they do in Colorado, with drive up locations closing a couple months ago only to reopen in the past week) testing numbers have changed.
Like a pregnancy, a test is useful in early detection.
 

dandelion

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I have to ask, why are you only concerned with the financial outcome?
I'm not. But 40% of people who died lived in care homes.They have an average life expectancy of 9 months. They would all have been expected to be dead by the end of the year anyway!

The rest of the deaths are a mixed bunch. Average age is 82. Average Uk life expectancy is 81, so your average covid victim actually exceeded average life expectancy. Which isnt to say they ought to die at all, but it makes clear they were at an age where general infirmity makes them susceptible to many illnesses and if it had not been covid, something else was likely. It also isnt clear whether the people who are 82 but still vigorous and maybe the ones who might make 110, have a very much better chance against covid anyway. It is a disease which attacks the weak, so a strong 82 year old might with impunity carry on a normal life.

We have stats about the chances of dying, but they really only reflect the proportions of people ending up in hospital. We have no idea how many people have really had covid, the case numbers are simply minimums. We dont know how many people were immune before this began, so we also dont know how many have been exposed to covid but it simply didnt take because they already had immunity.

A simple explanation of the situation in the Uk right now, and indeed the rest of the world, is that this is pretty much a one wave epidemic. In the UK in the spring it reached most of those in the general population it was ever likely to. More recently there has been a new wave centred around children and young adults sent back to schools and universities, and then a certain amount of contacts from them. But this has simply not taken off. It didnt increase the transmission rate, just dumped a whole load of new cases into the system from these new people. It was evidence the epidemic is over because it did no take off.

The cost of this lockdown will be paid by everyone for decades to come. Part of that cost will be poverty and diseases of poverty which it is absolutely clear shorten lives. I think its about 10 years age difference at death in the Uk between rich and poor. If you really want to save some lives, forget about covid and solve the problem of poverty. Oh...but what we just did was worry about a few people at risk from covid at the great expense to the many who will have more poverty because of it. Poverty prematurely kills many more than covid, every single year.

Put your trillions spent on covid somewhere they would do more good.
 

DiamondJoe

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I'm not. But 40% of people who died lived in care homes.They have an average life expectancy of 9 months. They would all have been expected to be dead by the end of the year anyway!

The rest of the deaths are a mixed bunch. Average age is 82. Average Uk life expectancy is 81, so your average covid victim actually exceeded average life expectancy. Which isnt to say they ought to die at all, but it makes clear they were at an age where general infirmity makes them susceptible to many illnesses and if it had not been covid, something else was likely. It also isnt clear whether the people who are 82 but still vigorous and maybe the ones who might make 110, have a very much better chance against covid anyway. It is a disease which attacks the weak, so a strong 82 year old might with impunity carry on a normal life.

We have stats about the chances of dying, but they really only reflect the proportions of people ending up in hospital. We have no idea how many people have really had covid, the case numbers are simply minimums. We dont know how many people were immune before this began, so we also dont know how many have been exposed to covid but it simply didnt take because they already had immunity.

A simple explanation of the situation in the Uk right now, and indeed the rest of the world, is that this is pretty much a one wave epidemic. In the UK in the spring it reached most of those in the general population it was ever likely to. More recently there has been a new wave centred around children and young adults sent back to schools and universities, and then a certain amount of contacts from them. But this has simply not taken off. It didnt increase the transmission rate, just dumped a whole load of new cases into the system from these new people. It was evidence the epidemic is over because it did no take off.

The cost of this lockdown will be paid by everyone for decades to come. Part of that cost will be poverty and diseases of poverty which it is absolutely clear shorten lives. I think its about 10 years age difference at death in the Uk between rich and poor. If you really want to save some lives, forget about covid and solve the problem of poverty. Oh...but what we just did was worry about a few people at risk from covid at the great expense to the many who will have more poverty because of it. Poverty prematurely kills many more than covid, every single year.

Put your trillions spent on covid somewhere they would do more good.

I have been through this with you soooo many times that I will simply state the headline:

You are woefully misrepresenting the stats on life expectancy and death to suit your misguided narrative.

:)
 

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Ah yes, but are the 90% protected the 90% who have immunty already, and the 10% not protected include the 0.1% who currently die?

Thats the reality of what happens now! we dont need a vaccine to protect the 90% because they are safe already.
You are fooling no-one but yourself.
 
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rbkwp

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Ah yes, but are the 90% protected the 90% who have immunty already, and the 10% not protected include the 0.1% who currently die?

Thats the reality of what happens now! we dont need a vaccine to protect the 90% because they are safe already.

shake my head dands
how can you virtually be the exact opposite thinker/believer than probably the majority on here
let alone likely the world

it does make it easier for some of us to understand,why your govt needs to introduce a total countrywide lockdown,for a month,at this late stage of the year
 
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