Corporate-funded mobs attack democracy

[D_Harvey Schmeckel]

Here's an interesting new data bit: 4% oppose all health care reform:

AP Health Care Poll: Only FOUR PERCENT Of Americans Don't Want Any Reform

That 4% sure as hell acts as if it has greater moral authority than the 96% who say we need reform.

 

[midlifebear]

With that logic, I shouldn't pay for anything which involves unproven chemo therapy. I shouldn't pay for a whole truck load of things which have benefitted so few.

Should your taxes help pay for the bottom of the heap, the elderly and crippled without adequate funds, eat? You betcha boy howdy! I worked for Meals On Wheels from 7:00 AM to 2:00 PM every day for three years as I was also tending bar for 8 and 12-hour shifts. The MOW program actually keeps otherwise ambulatory people at home living with a certain amount of dignity as well as saving a ton o' bucks if the government had to house them in public retirement facilities. (It also afforded me heath insurance, which tending bar did not.)

And which chemo therapies are you referring to? Nothing is a 100% guarantee when it comes to health care. But your faith healing falls under the heading of a religious belief system. If there are "healers" among us who have the magical power of helping others, it seems rather disingenuous to think they should be paid for services that are part of the collective spiritual human experience.

The religious "sweet spirits" I grew up among would NEVER consider charging for their faith healing services. Although, they are more inclined to rub some "consecrated" olive oil on your forehead/hairline and have four men lay their hands on your head and give a faith healing blessing if you've been paying your 10% (before tax) tithing. But they rarely turn anyone away. Should the government use my taxes to reimburse these people for their anthropologically interesting belief system? Hell no! Although they do come up with a lot of other loony ideas.

Thanks for showing us your "compassionate christianist" side. It aligns perfectly with the assholes clinging to their guns who insist homosexuals are perverts (or even worse, mentally ill), and who demand other christianists join them in aclarative prayers asking their gods to make sure Obama fails.

Yeah, I sure want you a my special friend.

 

[B_talltpaguy]

Here's an interesting new data bit: 4% oppose all health care reform:

AP Health Care Poll: Only FOUR PERCENT Of Americans Don't Want Any Reform

That 4% sure as hell acts as if it has greater moral authority than the 96% who say we need reform.

Damn bro, if that isn't a MANDATE from the nation that they want to "start over" with HCR, then I don't know what is!


Praise hallelujah to our genius conservative Americans... You clowns suuure called that one!

 

[Northland]

You and maxie make me work so hard midlifebear-

Should your taxes help pay for the bottom of the heap, the elderly and crippled without adequate funds, eat? You betcha boy howdy! I worked for Meals On Wheels from 7:00 AM to 2:00 PM every day for three years as I was also tending bar for 8 and 12-hour shifts. The MOW program actually keeps otherwise ambulatory people at home living with a certain amount of dignity as well as saving a ton o' bucks if the government had to house them in public retirement facilities. (It also afforded me heath insurance, which tending bar did not.)

And which chemo therapies are you referring to? Nothing is a 100% guarantee when it comes to health care. But your faith healing falls under the heading of a religious belief system. If there are "healers" among us who have the magical power of helping others, it seems rather disingenuous to think they should be paid for services that are part of the collective spiritual human experience.

The religious "sweet spirits" I grew up among would NEVER consider charging for their faith healing services. Although, they are more inclined to rub some "consecrated" olive oil on your forehead/hairline and have four men lay their hands on your head and give a faith healing blessing if you've been paying your 10% (before tax) tithing. But they rarely turn anyone away. Should the government use my taxes to reimburse these people for their anthropologically interesting belief system? Hell no! Although they do come up with a lot of other loony ideas.

Thanks for showing us your "compassionate christianist" side. It aligns perfectly with the assholes clinging to their guns who insist homosexuals are perverts (or even worse, mentally ill), and who demand other christianists join them in aclarative prayers asking their gods to make sure Obama fails.

Yeah, I sure want you a my special friend.

As I have told others, I do not claim to be a Christian. I was brought up attending church services at a Methodist Church, and same as you, I departed from the indoctrination. Further, I am going to ask you to point out where I didn't have compassion. I am adding to the compassion list by including faith healing for those who believe in it. There are various alternative medical routes which people want to go with; but, without money, they can only take what the hospitals offer and when indigent, what the government endorses. Well, there are also insurance horror stories, where people have been refused a treatment because it hasn't met A, B or C.

Again, I want full range of treatment for all and in all forms possible- why are you so dead set against that, and keyed into going anti-something which some people believe in? A person who is against chemo because they've seen family members suffer through it and die anyway, may feel their only choice is some faith healer or a bunch of herbs, why are you denying them hope?

I've been through chemo, I had more than one regimen given and was incrediibly touch and go for a time. I often considered giving up because of the side effects coupled with the lack of improvement.- I discussed it here- http://www.lpsg.org/94259-two-years-already.html and mentioned it here- http://www.lpsg.org/137590-back-hell-new-version-nudity.html which includes a point from our recent departure, Jason_els (fitting to mention this on what would have been his 44th birthday).
I've tried various things, the laying on of hands was several years ago and unrelated to the cancer. In my health scare of last year, I did prayer and meditating and it helped, it may not have cured anything all alone; but, it quieted the mind, which is often needed to get healthy.

You are just a hater, and no better than the Christians you rail against. You think you have a right to deny someone something simply because it offends you. That is no different from the Conservative right and other focus groups which want to deny men the right to be with each other and women to be with each other or to deny a woman the choice of keeping her baby or having an abortion. Hate is hate.

Regarding the above, the elderly and infirmed are I am sure giddy with delight that you refer to them as 'bottom of the heap'. Oh, and you might want to brush up on your language skills, you say- "MOW keeps otherwise ambulatory people at home living with..." If they were ambulatory they would not be at home in need of this program. That aside, I appreciate the time you gave, working for MOW.

My next post will address the earlier elements of this thread and the responses I gave and received.

 

[Industrialsize]

You and maxie make me work so hard midlifebear-






As I have told others, I do not claim to be a Christian. I was brought up attending church services at a Methodist Church, and same as you, I departed from the indoctrination. Further, I am going to ask you to point out where I didn't have compassion. I am adding to the compassion list by including faith healing for those who believe in it. There are various alternative medical routes which people want to go with; but, without money, they can only take what the hospitals offer and when indigent, what the government endorses. Well, there are also insurance horror stories, where people have been refused a treatment because it hasn't met A, B or C.

Again, I want full range of treatment for all and in all forms possible- why are you so dead set against that, and keyed into going anti-something which some people believe in? A person who is against chemo because they've seen family members suffer through it and die anyway, may feel their only choice is some faith healer or a bunch of herbs, why are you denying them hope?

I've been through chemo, I had more than one regimen given and was incrediibly touch and go for a time. I often considered giving up because of the side effects coupled with the lack of improvement.- I discussed it here- http://www.lpsg.org/94259-two-years-already.html and mentioned it here- http://www.lpsg.org/137590-back-hell-new-version-nudity.html which includes a point from our recent departure, Jason_els (fitting to mention this on what would have been his 44th birthday).
I've tried various things, the laying on of hands was several years ago and unrelated to the cancer. In my health scare of last year, I did prayer and meditating and it helped, it may not have cured anything all alone; but, it quieted the mind, which is often needed to get healthy.

You are just a hater, and no better than the Christians you rail against. You think you have a right to deny someone something simply because it offends you. That is no different from the Conservative right and other focus groups which want to deny men the right to be with each other and women to be with each other or to deny a woman the choice of keeping her baby or having an abortion. Hate is hate.

Regarding the above, the elderly and infirmed are I am sure giddy with delight that you refer to them as 'bottom of the heap'. Oh, and you might want to brush up on your language skills, you say- "MOW keeps otherwise ambulatory people at home living with..." If they were ambulatory they would not be at home in need of this program. That aside, I appreciate the time you gave, working for MOW.

My next post will address the earlier elements of this thread and the responses I gave and received.

I didn't realize that Christian Ministers CHARGED to perform a faith healing.

 

[Northland]

You said-

Having grown up in a state that is really a thinly-veiled theocracy, I have watched (and until the age of 16 was "forced" to be involved) with many faith healings. My experience in seeing the results are less than fabulously positive than yours.

I'm all for the placebo effect. So, placebo yourself away. Just don't use my tax money (or any one else's) to do it.

I responded, at no point saying that payment should not be made. I made clear that we pay for all kinds of things we don't use, alternative medical routes should be included.

My taxes go to all kinds of things I don't use- schools being the most obvious. Should I pay to subsidize meals for the elderly? Should I pay into a tax fund which pays state/local/federal employees and hands them a pension higher than many others earn in a 3 year span? (many penisons are based on the last year of work, where many employees, knowing this, log in twice the regular work hours, thereby increasing the dollars they will receive in the pension check) taxes go to paying the pensions as well.

If I pay for all of that, then I and others can pay for alternative medical options. To dismiss what others have found helps, because you didn't have a good experience, shows ignorance. The key to faith healing is FAITH, if a spiritual guide is going to assist, then bring them in and pay- probably a lower cost than the doctors will be asking for their diagnosis, surgery, hospital stays, tests, follow-ups, etc. etc. The laying on of hands, could in fact reduce overall expense.

At that point we had this from nwnccp (my words are in green)l-

If I pay for all of that, then I and others can pay for alternative medical options.

I have gotten more benefit from chiropractic care and therapeutic massage in recent years than from allopathic medicine. This is often true for musculo-skeletal pain, as has been demonstrated by scientific studies hence justifying insurance coverage of these treatments.
So I agree with you up to a point, but...

To dismiss what others have found helps, because you didn't have a good experience, shows ignorance. The key to faith healing is FAITH,
Whoa! This is a whole different definition of "what others have found helps" which is entirely subjective. No one should pay to support anyone else's subjective religious beliefs, even if they are therapeutic.

Responding to nwnccpl and his assertion that people should not pay for something even if it is therapeutic, I then said-

With that logic, I shouldn't pay for anything which involves unproven chemo therapy. I shouldn't pay for a whole truck load of things which have benefitted so few.

I indicated that using nwnccpl's logic, that there are then things I should not pay for. THROUGH THAT TYPE OF LOGIC, THAT WAY OF THINKING! I am not saying that I won't pay, in point of fact, I see it as my responsibility to help all Americans. Education dollars, even though I have no children, build a future through teaching our young ones, history, language, sciences, mathematics, music, art and more. Food program dollars offer a meal to a child or adult who miight otherwise be without, which could lead to an inability to cope with life and unknown consequences. Housing subsidies, place a roof over the head of a child or adult, also offering them a better life, a night of sleep in their own personal space. Medical dollars which cover abortion? I am not planning to have an abortion; but, there are women out there who will, and for any number of reasons, and they are entiitled to the best care possible if they decide to end the pregnancy. They should also have access to prenatal care, prenatal education if they plan to have the baby; but, aren't able to afford the various vitamins or doctor visits. Care for all, unlike what you try desperately to assert here-
(and again, I take issue with you calling elderly and crippled 'bottom of the heap'- discrimination is still discrimination no matter how you try to dress it up. They are not bottom of the heap, they are human beings and deserve the same respect which you demand. You think 3 years working for Meals on Wheels gives you a right to demean these men and women?

Should your taxes help pay for the bottom of the heap, the elderly and crippled without adequate funds, eat? You betcha boy howdy! I worked for Meals On Wheels from 7:00 AM to 2:00 PM every day for three years as I was also tending bar for 8 and 12-hour shifts. The MOW program actually keeps otherwise ambulatory people at home living with a certain amount of dignity as well as saving a ton o' bucks if the government had to house them in public retirement facilities. (It also afforded me heath insurance, which tending bar did not.)

And which chemo therapies are you referring to? Nothing is a 100% guarantee when it comes to health care. But your faith healing falls under the heading of a religious belief system. If there are "healers" among us who have the magical power of helping others, it seems rather disingenuous to think they should be paid for services that are part of the collective spiritual human experience.

The religious "sweet spirits" I grew up among would NEVER consider charging for their faith healing services. Although, they are more inclined to rub some "consecrated" olive oil on your forehead/hairline and have four men lay their hands on your head and give a faith healing blessing if you've been paying your 10% (before tax) tithing. But they rarely turn anyone away. Should the government use my taxes to reimburse these people for their anthropologically interesting belief system? Hell no! Although they do come up with a lot of other loony ideas.

Thanks for showing us your "compassionate christianist" side. It aligns perfectly with the assholes clinging to their guns who insist homosexuals are perverts (or even worse, mentally ill), and who demand other christianists join them in aclarative prayers asking their gods to make sure Obama fails.

Yeah, I sure want you a my special friend.

 

[Northland]

I didn't realize that Christian Ministers CHARGED to perform a faith healing.

The problem with two faced hypocritical persons like yourself, is you never read what is written. You see faith healer and jump on your damned anti-religion bullypulpit.


Not once did I say that the faith healers were Christians. Not once.

I am attempting to advocate ALL medical options, others have chosen to be sellective, which as I made clear to midlifebear is no better than the ones who say men are allowed to marry women and only women, or insurers that deny coverage of one treatment because it doesn't have a good enough track record when the patient is that far into an illness, "yes, it works 8% of the time; but, since it fails 92% we will deny it."

There are faith healers who are in no way connected to a sanctioned religious organization, they have FAITH, they adminitster to those who believe in them. I have no idea how they survive or are compensated, perhaps a meal and a bed is all they ask. A faith healer might be someone who never heard of God or entered a church, synagogue, mosque, or other religious structure; they have FAITH. Ignorant people are unable to allow faith, and in turn attack any who do.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Ignorant people are blinded by faith.
Most people don't completely ignore the possibility of faith healing, but don't push aside more provable options when they are readily available. Considering that there are many more people healed through actual science & medicine than with FAITH, don't get mad if you find yourself alone with a broken foot and are looking for a miracle cure instead of a sanctioned doctor.

Oy vey... the fact that this needs to be explained REALLY sucks.

 

[midlifebear]

Have you met the majority of folks receiving Meals on Wheels? Here's a thought, go to your local Services for the Aging outlet (usually it's the county, not the city that handles this) and volunteer to help out. You'll meet lots of seniors and get a good look at your future if you live long enough in the USA. Then go out and help the drivers pass out those meals kept in a heating unit inside their van. Get to know the "ambulatory" folks who can get around their homes, make it to the mail box, but cannot get to the supermarket without help. These are ambulatory. If you can walk you are ambulatory. That does not automatically mean you can walk without problems.

Sorry to hear about your bout with chemo. When they discovered I had more than just polyps growing in my colon when I was 40 I had surgery and several months of chemo and radiation. I LOVED the look of not having eyebrows. But I seem to have recovered. There was no guarantee. And there is no guarantee that colon cancer will not return. It's been about 25 years since then. It worked for me. Sorry it didn't work as well for you. And just shy of 4 years ago I had radiation therapy to get rid of Stage I prostate cancer instead of surgery. So far I'm still cancer free. But I didn't have insurance. I cannot afford insurance in the USA and I'm relatively wealthy. So, I opted for the best care I could afford as a resident of Spain (which, by the way, does not pay for faith healing).

As for our valuable and dearly missed Jason-Els? I miss him. Ever exchange PMs and learn how long he had probably been living with the cancer that finally took his life? Cancer, as with most other diseases, early detection gives the best odds for survival. He was already at Stage 2 going into Stage 3 when he was diagnosed. Again, a bright valuable person who was ineligible for health insurance.

You know how to meditate? Good for you. Congratulations. Seems to me you need to do a little deep breathing and get back to it real soon.

As for me being a "hater." I'm not so much a hater as I am an "out of patience-er." I have made certain that no matter how bad I think my life might be at times that I make someone else's life a little easier by volunteering in the communities I live to often just out-right out-right handing over an envelope stuffed with money to the stranger I've seen pushing a garbage cart in a large city. I don't care if they drink it or use it to help their families. Just as long as it brings some peace into their lives, no matter how short.

And you have my sympathies regarding your fate having been born into a Methodist family. But don't expect much sympathy from me.

You will, however, earn cookie points (not with me, but with karma) if you go out and just do something worthwhile for someone less fortunate than you. And if hanging with the "flow and glow" crowd makes you feel good, by all means do it. Just don't expect the government to underwrite your need to sit in the healing rings of a vortex or cure those bunions with magic crystals (unless those crystals are Epsom Salts and a warm foot soak).

And remember: Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans . . . .

 

[D_Harvey Schmeckel]

If you're gonna quote me, don't misrepresent what I wrote in the next line:

Whoa! This is a whole different definition of "what others have found helps" which is entirely subjective. No one should pay to support anyone else's subjective religious beliefs, even if they are therapeutic.

which you translated as:

Responding to nwnccpl and his assertion that people should not pay for something even if it is therapeutic, I then said-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northland

With that logic, I shouldn't pay for anything which involves unproven chemo therapy. I shouldn't pay for a whole truck load of things which have benefitted so few.

I indicated that using nwnccpl's logic, that there are then things I should not pay for.

But the logic is not at all what you say. I did not write "people should not pay for something even if it is therapeutic." They are entirely entitled to pay for faith healers if it works for them, even though based on subjective religious belief. They are not entitled to financial support for treatments unsupported by scientific evidence. Chemotherapy is entirely based on scientific evidence, and not at all on subjective religious faith. Science and religion are very different realms, but the consistent drumbeat of rightwing Republicans for the last 30 years has been to attack science and exalt religion as if both are equally subjective.

 

[Northland]

Yes, midlifebear, I have met the persons receiving Meals on Wheels. I've served food at Greenwich House and Our Lady of Pompei where the actual ambulatory people recieve meals at low cost, I've attended the rallys of protest against the cuts Mayor Bloombucks has decided are necessity to balance a budget. Balancing budgets on the backs of the people with the least, has never been an option to my thinking. Anyway, it still doesn't excuse your calling elderly and crippled, 'bottom of the heap' that told me what you really are, not who, what.

My relationship with Jason, both on this board and another, is my business, unlike many, I kept quiet about when and where we had connected.


Continue in your arrogance and ignorance, I am sure it will take you far.

All of you fauning over each other, attacking one item, failing again and again and yet again, to see and read that I am asking for and advocating for, the best quality and equality for all- including those who you so well hate, those of the far right.

 

[midlifebear]

Northland: Sugarcups, that is all well and good. And think of me as you will. But you've still got a lot of work to do regarding those: Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans. Calm blue oceans.

Good luck with that. And I don't mean that in a snarky or mean way. :smile:

 

[maxcok]

My taxes go to all kinds of things I don't use- schools being the most obvious. . . .

Yeah!!! I don't want my tax dollars going for public education either. I mean, who cares if we have an edjucated workforce, scientific advances or technological innovation in the future? This country is done for anyway. It doesn't bother me at all that virtually every time I have to deal with a service rep in the public or private sector under the age of say 40, 30 for sure, they are so stupid and utterly incompetent that I end up wasting hours moving up the chain of supervisors trying to resolve my issue. I'm not concerned at all about my prospects, if and when I reach old age and require medical care, or end up in a nursing home, God forbid. I mean, who cares if the staff are smart enough to do something as simple as matching up my name on a chart to make sure I get the right medications, should I require them (God forbid)?

I'm also for the elimination of superfluous subject matter in schools too, such as History, Civics and Government, so-called "Science", higher Math, etc. And I'm sure you all agree that shit like Arts and the Humanities are completely unnecessary. Seriously, Art and Music are ridiculous extravagances are they not? And Physical Education? Give me a fuckin break! Kids today get plenty of exercise working the teevee remote and tapping their thumbs on a video game controller. Who cares if obesity rates among the young have climbed over 35% and early onset diabetes is exploding? They'll all have plenty of money socked away in their Healthcare Savings Accounts to pay for their own medical needs, after years of challenging and productive employment earning high wages in a fascinating profession of their own choosing. If they live that long, if not, who cares?

Above all, it's vital that we put the Christian God back into the school curriculum where He belongs. Tell the true story of Creation and Intelligent Design instead of that demonic heathen Evolution fairytale. Our kid's minds are being warped by that shit, and it will destroy the planet! I'm in favor of eliminating public edyoocation entirely, our children should all be "homescholed"! While we're at it, I don't want to pay for roads I don't drive on. Everybody should pay for their own damn roads!!! Everybody should pay to test their own food and drugs for safety, and pay for their own military, police and fire protection too! Why should I have to pay if you get robbed, or your house burns down? That's ridiculous! And all this damn welfare!!! Why should I pay for you to sit around on your lazy ass just because you were stupid enough to get sick or fired from your job? Their are plenty of jobs out their, peeple are just lazyasses!!!!We should eliminate all taxes. Wake up peepuls!!! The guhvmant is robbing us blind!!! The guhvmnat should pay for itself!!! We should just get rid of the Goddamn guvhmint altoogather!!!!!! Are you with me??!!!!

Now gimme a Goddamn cup of Tea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You and maxie make me work so hard midlifebear-

You do that to yourself, northie.

My next post will address the earlier elements of this thread and the responses I gave and received.

We'll all be waiting in breathless anticipation.

 

[maxcok]

If you're gonna quote me, don't misrepresent what I wrote in the next line:

Whoa! This is a whole different definition of "what others have found helps" which is entirely subjective. No one should pay to support anyone else's subjective religious beliefs, even if they are therapeutic.

which you translated as:

Responding to nwnccpl and his assertion that people should not pay for something even if it is therapeutic, I then said-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northland [URL]http://www.lpsg.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif[/URL]
With that logic, I shouldn't pay for anything which involves unproven chemo therapy. I shouldn't pay for a whole truck load of things which have benefitted so few.

I indicated that using nwnccpl's logic, that there are then things I should not pay for.

But the logic is not at all what you say. I did not write "people should not pay for something even if it is therapeutic." They are entirely entitled to pay for faith healers if it works for them, even though based on subjective religious belief. They are not entitled to financial support for treatments unsupported by scientific evidence. Chemotherapy is entirely based on scientific evidence, and not at all on subjective religious faith. Science and religion are very different realms, but the consistent drumbeat of rightwing Republicans for the last 30 years has been to attack science and exalt religion as if both are equally subjective.

But that's just how he rolls. That's just how they roll.

Continue in your arrogance and ignorance, I am sure it will take you far.

Ironic, ain't it?

 

[midlifebear]

Ironic, ain't it?[/QUOTE]

Hey, I pay good money to have someone else do my ironing! :tongue:

I believe it's what neocons call trickle down ironomics.

 

[Northland]

If you're gonna quote me, don't misrepresent what I wrote in the next line:

Whoa! This is a whole different definition of "what others have found helps" which is entirely subjective. No one should pay to support anyone else's subjective religious beliefs, even if they are therapeutic.

which you translated as:

Responding to nwnccpl and his assertion that people should not pay for something even if it is therapeutic, I then said-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northland

With that logic, I shouldn't pay for anything which involves unproven chemo therapy. I shouldn't pay for a whole truck load of things which have benefitted so few.

I indicated that using nwnccpl's logic, that there are then things I should not pay for.

But the logic is not at all what you say. I did not write "people should not pay for something even if it is therapeutic." They are entirely entitled to pay for faith healers if it works for them, even though based on subjective religious belief. They are not entitled to financial support for treatments unsupported by scientific evidence. Chemotherapy is entirely based on scientific evidence, and not at all on subjective religious faith. Science and religion are very different realms, but the consistent drumbeat of rightwing Republicans for the last 30 years has been to attack science and exalt religion as if both are equally subjective.

I am well aware of what you wrote. I am, as I have repeated again and again, I am looking for an equal playing field for all. You and you arrogant, ignorant asskissing friends, want to keep going with an equal with special seperations mindset. I outlined my experiences, and why I endorse certain things. When I indicated what I saw as your way of logic I was handed more of midlife and his failure to read what I wrote. He now thinks mockery is the way to go- well, whatever works for the ancient fart.

One will note, and be miindful, midlife bear, still hasn't explained why he refers to elderly and infirmed as 'bottom of the heap'.

 

[D_Harvey Schmeckel]

I am well aware of what you wrote. I am, as I have repeated again and again, I am looking for an equal playing field for all. You and you arrogant, ignorant asskissing friends,

I just started posting a couple of weeks ago. If anyone here has kissed my ass it's news to me. This kind of "you people" crap is nothing but stereotyping and scapegoating.

Welcome to the ignore list!

 

[Northland]

I am well aware of what you wrote. I am, as I have repeated again and again, I am looking for an equal playing field for all. You and you arrogant, ignorant asskissing friends,

I just started posting a couple of weeks ago. If anyone here has kissed my ass it's news to me. This kind of "you people" crap is nothing but stereotyping and scapegoating.

Welcome to the ignore list!

Ah! I have arrived!

The proof of one having absolutely no ability to argue their case is when they place you on ignore. The wiser, more mature method is to browse through and occasionally read what the poster has written. Often the person who offends on one topic will be a kindred spirit on another. (it also helps, since the posters you don't place on ignore, will be responding and you'll only have half the story. Then again, maybe that's all you can absorb.)

At any rate, you proved me right, and midlife still refuses to answer why he speaks of elderly and crippled as being at the 'bottom of the heap'. (which he can technically skate away from- someone go help him read what he wrote).

 

[B_VinylBoy]

You know, Northland, watching you beat your chest over something as ignorant as this the most laughable thing I've ever seen on this board in a while.

Seriously, anyone can figure out what MLB implied when he said "bottom of the heap" and nobody with any kind of brain or backbone was offended by it. By all means, if you want to keep twisting it out of context and pretend that you're somehow outraged then by all means... remain that blatantly ignorant. I welcome you to be that cranially impaired and stupid. But nobody is falling for your fake-ass pity routines.

 

[midlifebear]

Dear Northland (you cute sugar butt): Part One

If it isn't clear to you now it may become clearer as you gain more years living in the USA that growing old in 'Mericuh isn't like the Cialas and Boniva commercials the drug companies would like us to believe. Unless you've made it to the top of the heap and have enough passive income (currently, at least $7,000 a month) coming in to keep you in the love and life you've become accustomed you're going to find yourself becoming part of the bottom of the heap in this wonderful society. You'll most likely start by selling off your home (if you live in one) and cut expenses by living in a smaller space, most likely rented from someone or something.

At 65 (maybe, if it still exists) you'll be able to qualify for Medicare. Medicare as it currently exists is a great thing and a bad thing. You'll discover the need to still purchase secondary or possibly tertiary health insurance. In 1995 my own parents were paying an extra $590 a month --each -- from their fixed income for secondary care. And their options for health care were a bit limited. My mother qualified for an Intermountain Health Care HMO. My father, however, was golden. He not only had Medicare but a secondary insurance with Carnegie as well as two different pensions. He was more than fortunate, but because of my mother the two had to settle for the lesser medical care from the HMO.

They weren't rich, but they were hardly poor. Yet, somehow, after all of their secondary insurances and co-pays were taken care of they had enough money for eating out, a little socializing, but no vacations. I found this rather odd, because both had worked their entire lives and had great insurance during their working careers. My father still did. But mom's situation sort of dragged him down. Then with Reagan as president, they began paying taxes on their social security. Prior to 1982-ish, seniors didn't pay income tax on their social security. I may be wrong about this particular point, but I know my grandparents never had to worry about paying income tax on their social security.

My parents discovered, upon their retirements, that they had been demoted from solid middle class to a lower income class. As their health began to fail so did their health insurance systems. My mother was written off by her HMO as someone who just needed to be kept under control with big bottles of oxycontin. She eventually died of sepsis of the stomach. After years of a "highly respected Provo physician" keeping her on oxycontin her stomach sort of quit working and basically rotted out. Sepsis. Kidneys failed. She died. But it never had to have happened had she received real medical care. Her HMO wouldn’t pay for it. And she was PAYING for that non care.

As soon as my mother had passed away I grabbed my father and marched him off to a gerontologist. The same physician who had enabled my mother's dependence upon oxycontin was somewhat indignant when I insisted that he turn over copies of all of my father's medical records. He insisted he was just as qualified to care for my father as any gerontologist. He lied. He still lies. He's just a bottom rung internist with whom I wouldn't trust giving my own children (if I had them) their pertussis and measles vaccinations.

Taking my dad to a gerontologist probably added an extra five years to his life. His chronic back pain was "miraculously" cured by steroid injections at a pain clinic by professionals who could actually read the four year-old MRI his primary care physician had ordered but could not, himself, read. Imagine five years of finally being pain free after a primary care physician did nothing but go through the motions of being a care giver. It happens. But my parents had been relegated to the bottom of the heap. The HMO's front office had done an early insurance biopsy and found that my parents wouldn't be bringing in the big bucks. So, just keep them quiet by keeping them medicated.

It was almost too late for my father. But I like to think I helped him capture back a few good years by being his medical advocate and pursuing the best medical care I could find for him. This included moving him out of the State where he was born and lived most of his life.

When I worked for Meals On Wheels I made a lot of wise and amusing friends. Unfortunately, they needed MOW because they couldn't get out to buy food and cook for themselves. They were, as I said, ambulatory. Again, that just means they could walk. It has nothing to do with how well, or how fast, or how easily they could walk. They could simply walk -- basically to the bathroom to evacuate and clean up. They could also sit in a shower chair and clean up, too. These people were at the bottom of the heap. One fall and it was hand over their homes and other assests to the State and go into a long-term care facility.

The perkier senior citizens would show up at the senior centers and dive into social activities, art projects, sing-alongs, and have lunch together. If one or two of the could drive, they’d show up in packs, and after two or thee hours of Bridge they’d ride off and get into all kinds of trouble at the 4:40 PM buffets. If they couldn’t drive (bad eye sight and “other” issues) they would be dropped off in vans to partake of the lovely insttitutional luncheon and cards. Those that couldn't make the trip received meals twice a day, delivered by MOW to their homes.

I remember a nice old German guy who was trying to teach me basic German phrases. I would show up on my route on Saturdays, making sure he was the last client, and we would suck down little 8 ounce cans of beer on his rooftop in North Beach, hang out, and he'd laugh at my bad German. One day I noticed a large bottle of red capsules on his kitchen counter and asked, "What are you taking these for?" I could see quite easily that they were Seconal, a rip-roaring heavy-duty barbiturate. "Those?" he responded innocently, "My doctor says they'll help me with my nerves." And he was serious. Yeah, they'd help with his nerves, no doubt. If he didn't accidentally take an overdose (which for a 89 pound octogenerian could be as few as two capsules if he was drinking a couple of beers) he would more than likely slip and fall in a stupor, breaking his hip, neck, whatever. End result: one more taken off the overburdened rolls. Worst case: put in a long term care facility where he would waste away and die. Luckily, he fooled everyone and had a massive coronary.

So, was my 80-something German buddy at the top of the heap or at the bottom of the heap? Well, he wasn't rich. He didn't have enough money to keep up the lifestyle he'd enjoyed during his 40s, 50s, and 60s. And that's where "bottom of the heap" comes into play.

Sure, we all know vibrant positive active people in their 90s (at least I do), but every one of them has a ton o' bucks. Somewhere when we reach around 74 to 76 years of age actuaries get agitated because 'Mericuhns, especially 'Mericun men, aren't supposed to live so long. Damn it. Old people are just a major inconvenience when it comes to running an insurance company (or being a 50-something politician working for the GOP). You'd think we'd have enough sense to know when to back out of the room and just die. But we don't. And we're going to live even longer (at least in some civilized countries).