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Tattooed Goddess

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You only have to search as far as the Catholic Church, which is the largest Christian denomination of all. Now... does that mean all, most, or even more than a few Catholics realize that? Of course not. But their ignorance of their own religion doesn't change the position of the institution itself. Do most American citizens know everything in the Constitution? Nope, but it's all still there anyway.

There may be others, but they're not my specialty.

I bet there are plenty of ex-Catholic gay men and women who have stories to prove otherwise. They are the biggest baby-cranking religion of them all. So important that contracting and spreading AIDS is not really a big deal compared to how you would disappoint God by wearing a condom. You should see the missionaries in Africa working hard to spread this message of no birth control. What is that doing for gay Christians?

I am sure many Catholics will read this and piss on my grave but there is no way in hell I'm following that concept. Babies are used constantly as a way to make people believe they are being Godly by having good, Christian sex with no birth control. The Catholics aren't the only ones, but since you brought them up....
 

travis1985

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That post is one big, walking, breathing red herring. I was talking about which Testament the Catholic Church draws its teaching on homosexual activity from, and you responded about the different subject of the Church's teaching on condom usage and how it relates to the spread of disease in third-world countries. You also mentioned that a lot of gay Christians don't like the Church's teaching, which has nothing to do with what text that teaching originates from.

It's off-topic anyway. This thread involves Christians who are pious and dedicated to their faith. While the stories of formerly religious people who have since chosen to defect are emotional and interesting ones to be sure, they are not very applicable. Either keep it on-topic or bow out. I know I contributed to the going off-topic too, but I forgot myself and followed the offshoot. Let's get back on before the thread becomes about something it wasn't intended to be and ceases being helpful to the person who started it.
 
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Tattooed Goddess

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This thread involves Christians who are pious and dedicated to their faith. While the stories of formerly religious people who have since chosen to defect is an emotional and interesting one to be sure, they are not very applicable. Either keep it on-topic or bow out. I know I contributed to the going off-topic too, but I forgot myself and followed the offshoot. Let's get back on before the thread becomes about something it wasn't intended to be and ceases being helpful to the person who started it.

I don't find what I had to say to be unhelpful at all regardless how controversial it is. The man needs to look up the culture behind the Mosaic law and WHY it was important for the time it was in because it is surely those who believe in the Mosaic law that are giving him hell. How is this off topic?

It speaks to many people here who are reading this. Only after many years of studying did I finally begin to make some ground with my religious parents who were shamed by having two gay sons. My Dad was a pastor. It doesn't matter what denomination he was a pastor in because this sort of judgement crosses all denominations and it traces back to the same passages in the Bible.

It is still quite on topic. Whether he wants to go with your side of the issue or my side of the issue, he is still equipping himself with knowledge. And that's exactly what I was telling him to do.

In the face of religious persecution the best thing you can do is either ignore it entirely (which is something we can't ask him to do with people he loves) or get a hell of a lot better at understanding their Bible than they do.
 

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It is NOT "surely those who believe in the Mosaic law that are giving him hell." That's possible, but we don't KNOW how informed his parents are or how intimately they have studied scripture to know what originates where. We do know their belief in the letter of the Bible is as strong as his belief that homosexual activity can be acceptable and that it is just as unlikely to be discarded, which means that writing it off as not important is a cop-out and conterproductive to any hope of a resolution.

I'm saying, "The Mosaic law books are not the only place the Bible opposes homosexual activity; in fact, that comes from the New Testament as well, and that's presumed to be relevant for Christians." You're the one who brought up the old fallacy about how it isn't applicable today and, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to still be asserting this. If you really think "a better understanding of the Bible," and thus where this young man's parents are coming from, is part of the solution to this problem (and we would then be in agreement), I don't know why you're resisting my statement.
 

aninnymouse

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Hold up. I thought this was all about Jameshawket, and how his parents, or at least his father, seem to be coming around about his coming out. Not about how and why the various Christian denominations condemn homosexuality.

I just have this to say to him.

I'm so happy that your dad appears to be willing to open a dialogue with you. Hopefully, this is the start of something good. A great Christmas gift, if you will.

It sounds like, if the "Preacher shopping" is any indication, that they truly do love you, realize that they've hurt you very badly, and are trying to do something to make it okay for them to love you through the lens of Christianity. A little fucked, IMO, 'cause Love is love, and you don't need "permission to love someone, but I don't know. I was raised Spiritualist, so I have funny ideas about religion.

Congrats and have a merry Christmas, here's to hoping things improve 1,000 fold in the new year with you and your family.
 

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Hold up. I thought this was all about Jameshawket, and how his parents, or at least his father, seem to be coming around about his coming out. Not about how and why the various Christian denominations condemn homosexuality.
I shouldn't have taken the bait, but let the record show how I tried to drop the subplot and get back on topic when I realized the discussion had branched into irrelevance. I'm not the one continuing to insist that it's pertinent.
 
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aninnymouse

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Well, here's something that advances the topic, and poses the question of Christian tolerance/intolerance....

What are the most Gay Friendly Christian denominations? Which stripe of preacher would possibly be most beneficial for James to gently nudge his parents towards, so that they can find the answers that it seems that they are looking for?
 

Red_Rebel

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Im sorry to hewr about what happened to you. When my mom found out im gay she tossed all my clothes out the wet drive way and i had to pick them up piece by piece while bawllin my eyes out. You came out because of your bf Im assuming? Either way, 5 months is a short time to determine the future trust me on this one. Your family can treat you like crap right now but i say BFs come and go but your family will always be your family.

They will eventually learn to accept you, i came out at 16 and now 23 my family specially my religious mom and homophobic brother had a full 360 (i was furtnate that it happened in such a short amount of time, am sure some took a lifetime to accept).

I dated someone for more than 4 years and have gone through the whole moving out thing because i felt so certain, but time does a lot to people, i say dont turn your back completely to your family. :) theyre just shocked and you cant simply expect them to welcome the idea so easily. All the luck and i hope itd get better for you
 

jameshawket

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Im sorry to hewr about what happened to you. When my mom found out im gay she tossed all my clothes out the wet drive way and i had to pick them up piece by piece while bawllin my eyes out. You came out because of your bf Im assuming? Either way, 5 months is a short time to determine the future trust me on this one. Your family can treat you like crap right now but i say BFs come and go but your family will always be your family.

They will eventually learn to accept you, i came out at 16 and now 23 my family specially my religious mom and homophobic brother had a full 360 (i was furtnate that it happened in such a short amount of time, am sure some took a lifetime to accept).

I dated someone for more than 4 years and have gone through the whole moving out thing because i felt so certain, but time does a lot to people, i say dont turn your back completely to your family. :) theyre just shocked and you cant simply expect them to welcome the idea so easily. All the luck and i hope itd get better for you

I'm not sure that five months is that short of a time frame. I knew that he was the one from the very first message he sent me. There have been millions and millions of people around the world who met their spouses and knew they were the one within the first few minutes. That's how love is sometimes. There is such thing as love at first sight, and there is such thing as a soulmate. He's mine. I'm sorry about what happened to you though, and I'm glad they came around. I just want to clarify that I didn't turn my back on my family, they turned their back on me, they disowned me. They were the ones who forced me out and told me not to come back. I get that whole "Your family will always be there for you" thing, but apparently in this case that's not the case.

And to everyone who moved topics, please, feel free to bunny trail. I opened this thread to any and ALL thoughts about the issue. Wherever those thoughts lead, I don't want to be the reason why they stop.
 

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[Long post]
Back in early October I came out to my parents while I was staying for the weekend at their house. They overreacted, kicked me out, and told me never to come back until I was "fixed" and a Christian "again."

Very sorry to hear that your parents took your news that so harshly, but it sounds like your dad is reaching out to you. That's a great thing.

First, it's important to remember that this was like a punch to the gut to your parents, and it sounds like you know that. Moreover, they have each other to reinforce their message (as well as to impress - maybe each has some misgivings, but didn't want to show it in front of the other or you for fear of undermining). It's hardly an equal conversation when it's two-on-one and the two have the benefit of being your elders and pulling some of the purse strings.

But time has a remarkable way of easing the effects of a sucker punch, and how you play it from that point forward has a lot to do with their respect for you and their next moves.

It sounds like you have a very solid footing in your faith. That's a great thing, and it's certainly compatible with reading up on many different takes on the issue(s) at hand. As you know, many Christian parents base their condemnation of their gay children on NT passages, which in turn have their root in OT prohibitions. Taken together, the following analyses may be reassuring to you and, if you find the right time to share them, might also give your parents some comforting alternate perspectives. It sounds from your description like they're actively seeking ways to incorporate acceptance of who their son is into their own faith.

What the New Testament Says about Homosexuality

The Levitical Ban: The Final Verdict by Bruce L. Gerig (Jack Milgrom, a clergyman and biblical scholar, wrote a historic essay on homosexuality in his 2004 book on Leviticus. It's referenced in this link, but I'll gladly PM you a pdf of this one-pager if you're interested.)

You mention wanting to be a parent yourself. I have witnessed among several friends the effect that having a new grandchild - through a lesbian daughter or gay son - can have on very rigidly religious parents. My former roommate swore he could never in a million years tell his strict Southern Baptist parents in South Carolina that he was gay. But he did, and they freaked. However... 10 years later, they adore his daughter, they call his partner their son-in-law, and they reserve their resentment not for their son, but for those who condemn their family.

Good luck - more people here than you know are pulling for you.
 

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It seems to me that everyone posting in this thread has done their best to be helpful to the OP. Some have provided support on the core issue: The relationship with his parents, specifically the Dad. Others have attempted to provide insight into the relevant issue of the "Gay Christian" issue/conflict that is at the heart of basis for the core issue. It seems to me that addressing one or the other and supporting your point of view is not necessarily off topic or counterproductive.

The OP is young - remember being 22 y.o.? I do. A lot of soul searching can occur during this time period and the views, knowledge and experience shared here may just be "a blessing in disguise" in his spiritual and religious journey during this critical and transitioning time of his life. May I also add the debate has not been antagonist, as far as I can tell, and I, sincerely, applaud everyone's ability to discuss it like adults. I have seen many threads degenerate into accusatory and inflammatory language on topics that were less sensitive.

Regarding the core topic. What amazing grace, that his parents have become open to searching for better understanding of their son's sexuality. What a perfect example of changing a hostile response to a problem into a teachable moment. God bless them. To that point, if it is helpful, two of the largest American protestant denominations (The Episcopalians and The United Church of Christ (UCC)) have accepted GLBT Christians into their Church as fully participating members. Each group has some dissenters, but that is almost a Christian standard since the days of the original Disciples - disagreement has not ever deterred The Word of God. The Protestants get their name from protesting the Catholic Church. Many of the Pilgrims who landed at Plymouth on the Mayflower were (Protestant) Congregationalists fleeing the intolerance of the Church of England. Today, many of the older Congregational churches are part of the UCC. But I digress... big time.

I agree with Madam Rouge in that many of the laws and world views, New and Old Testaments, were designed for a period of time that is no longer relevant. In my mind, two of the most fundamental examples of this are 1) the earth is flat, not round and 2) The Sun revolves around the Earth not the other way around. It took the church quite some time to wrap their dogmatic brains around those two. Now, the science is becoming more accepted that human sexuality is biologically wired and not decision oriented. Once you allow that the Bible contains flawed information, it is only logical to open one's faith to deeper meanings (interpretations) and not simply the literal text. End digression II.

I totally relate to Travis185's conviction of faith, and I share it as a fellow Christian. The concept of Christianity is built around Jesus presenting to the Jews a new understanding of their monotheism. The majority rejected it and ultimately the result was Christ's crucifixion and the birth of Christianity. My point being, the New Testament is no more God's last words than the Old Testament was. Conceptual change, then, is not mutually exclusive to one's faith in God. In my humble opinion.

Jameshawket, I find you a remarkable, courageous and forthright human being in your confronting your challenges and choosing to be true to yourself and thereby, to your faith in God's love for you. Thank you for sharing your story, who knows how many other young and older minds may have found solace and strength from your story, to face their own similar challenges in a positive and healthy manner. God Bless You.

Finally, I share this favorite saying, sorry I do not know the origin:

"Faith is a Journey, Not a Destination."

Shalom, Blessings and Merry Christmas Everyone.
 
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My salvation and spirituality are not contingent on how my parents live their lives, or choose to react towards how I live my life. My spirituality is based on a personal relationship that I have with my Savior, and as far as I'm concerned, nothing in the world can take that away from me. People and the church are not going to make me do all the right things to get into heaven, the Bible makes it very clear that only Jesus can, and if I follow His heart rather than man's, then who cares what they think of me.

You got me wrong. Why would you believe in something that finds you guilty of something you naturally are and cannot change. I thought that would be enough reason to rule out a belief.
 

cockhoarder

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I think it takes a lot of courage to do what you did, and think you did the right thing! I wish I had your guts and courage to come out to my family... Just give them time to digest, if they are sending you emails its already a good sign!

Happy holidays!!!! and wish you and your bf all the best !:tongue:
[Long post]

I always feel the need to preface my posts, so if anyone has read my former stuff, skip down a bit:

Back in early October I came out to my parents while I was staying for the weekend at their house. They overreacted, kicked me out, and told me never to come back until I was "fixed" and a Christian "again." They took my car away, because they were helping me with payments on it, my cell phone, and cut off ties between my brother and I. For the last two months I've gotten constant emails saying how much I'm hurting them, how I'm choosing "this life" over my family, how I'm sinning and going to hell, etc.
I need to mention that my boyfriend of almost five months is going to be my first and last. I'm crazy about this guy, and I'm ready and wanting to marry him the second we are in postiions to do so. He is my soulmate, and my everything.
That being said, it was really hard to choose him over my family. I knew this would be the response I got from them, so I knew that I either had to dump him to keep my family in my life, or stay with him like I want to do and potentially lose my family forever. I wanted him, more than I needed them, so I chose to come out and accept the consequences.

OK, so with that prefaced haha.

I got another email from my dad a few days ago, it was the same kind of email. I pretty much responded with this long response about how his email get my frustrated because he doesn't see my side, he's not understanding me at all, that I'm still a Christian, that I'm still doing life right, and that he's missing out on who I am in this moment because of his stubbornness. The message included much more, but I'm keeping it brief.

So I'm guessing that took him back a bit because he responded with a really... oddly loving and understanding message, and in my dad's oh-so-stubborn way, I could see hints and underlying tones of sadness and regret for what he did and said that day, as well as a LOT of apologizing.

He and my mom are going to more intensive counseling, and they, from what it sounds like, have been going from pastor to pastor all over their area and even farther out. My guess is that they're trying to subtly find a pastor who will confirm my orientation Biblically, and explain to them that I'm still a Christian, and somehow approve my lifestyle so that they can have a relationship with me again and be in the clear with God, but not outright saying that. My parents are very sneaky.

From what it looks like, the future may be getting brighter with my family, but I'm still just so conflicted and confused. My boyfriend is my everything, if we can someday adopt children or get a surroget, we're going to do it. We want to spend our lives with each other, and if things get better between ME and my family, I don't know if that will necessarily mean good things for them and my future husband. I don't know if I could even have a relationship with them if they couldn't accept my husband, or even my boyfriend right now. It's hard, because I feel like I'll have to pick a side again when that time comes.

More so I just wanted to post on here to let you all know how things are going, and the updates with this situation, since there were quite a few messages I got asking me to update you all.

If you have any thoughts at all, I'd love to hear them. It's hard to summarize two and half months into a smallish post, so I understand that this is a very broad post, but if you have anything to say, please don't hesitate to say it.
 

B_Lightkeeper

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James, I can't say I know how you feel since I was lucky in having my parents accepted my homosexuality but I do feel for you.

Now it is my brother's 4th. wife that I have to contend with.

Good luck.
 

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I am a Catholic Christian and all I have to say is "God does not make junk." My brother was gay, did not come out until the end of his life, a year before he died of AIDS and during that time he met a priest who accepted his gayness and helped him die at peace.
 

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My salvation and spirituality are not contingent on how my parents live their lives, or choose to react towards how I live my life. My spirituality is based on a personal relationship that I have with my Savior, and as far as I'm concerned, nothing in the world can take that away from me. People and the church are not going to make me do all the right things to get into heaven, the Bible makes it very clear that only Jesus can, and if I follow His heart rather than man's, then who cares what they think of me.

You got me wrong. Why would you believe in something that finds you guilty of something you naturally are and cannot change. I thought that would be enough reason to rule out a belief.

srk515 Please understand that there is a growing acceptance of Christian theology that includes GLBT sexuality. There are many straight theologians and clergy of various faiths - Jewish and Islamic as well - that are supportive of this direction. I am not asking or suggesting that you believe, but in response to your question and statement: Same-gender-loving persons can be in a loving and accepting Christian fellowship and Bible based church, so we do not have to "rule out a belief" in a faith based concept. Everyone has the right to their own choices. You have the choice of reviewing some of the other posts in this thread that address this issue and agreeing or disagreeing with them. No one should be forced to accept anything that does not resonate with their being, whether believer or non-believer. Agreeing to disagree is the basis for tolerance and allows for individuals to be respected and respectful of divergent points of view. Ours is not to judge. Peace.
 
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srk515 Please understand that there is a growing acceptance of Christian theology that includes GLBT sexuality. There are many straight theologians and clergy of various faiths - Jewish and Islamic as well - that are supportive of this direction. I am not asking or suggesting that you believe, but in response to your question and statement: Same-gender-loving persons can be in a loving and accepting Christian fellowship and Bible based church, so we do not have to "rule out a belief" in a faith based concept. Everyone has the right to their own choices. You have the choice of reviewing some of the other posts in this thread that address this issue and agreeing or disagreeing with them. No one should be forced to accept anything that does not resonate with their being, whether believer or non-believer. Agreeing to disagree is the basis for tolerance and allows for individuals to be respected and respectful of divergent points of view. Ours is not to judge. Peace.

I love how religion just starts to accept things it cannot defeat. That's why lots of Islamic "scholars" are now trying to find verses in the Quran and saying that evolution is actually in it when they were against it for the past thousand or so years. Stay free and don't take your mixed opinions for the reality.
 

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I don't want to tangent too much on this religion trail, but I just want to include my beliefs, in opposition to an earlier post, I don't think the Bible is flawed or has flawed information, we as humans are flawed. We read verses and figure out how they best apply to our lives. We then find religious leaders who interpret those same verses, and entrust them that they will guide us how the Lord is leading them.

For thousands of years we've been doing that as a people, and those people we entrust do not always have the best motives. The Bible has always been constant and non-changing in it's stance. Notice how it's always been Churches who have been changing. We're talking about the same institution that said it was demonic to be black, that if you masturbated you would be sent to hell, if you got married to a non-white you were going to hell, if you beat up your wife to a pulp God smiled upon you.

All of these things were because spiritual leaders with their own agenda misinterpreted verses and twisted them to be what they wanted them. The people who listened and respected that spiritual leader were the ones who followed them, and those people will have to answer up to what they did in the end.

The Bible says a few times to "test the Lord your God" and other verses relating to spiritual testing. In my eyes, the Bible was made to be read two ways, logically (e.g. reading the verses, stories, etc) and emotionally/feeling (e.g. praying, seeking wisdom, using your discernment) It's why there are Biblical Scholars and Spiritual Scholars. There are sects of the Christian church that do nothing but recite verses over and over, memorizing, reading, but not using much of their heart to feel out God and what He wants. Conversely, there are sects which do nothing but pray and seek out God's heart while not reading a single sentence in the Bible.

With that said, I think if you read verses that say "Homosexuality is a sin and disgusting to God" and you just accept that as the constant truth without praying about it, using your discernment, and really figuring out what the verse truly means practially, you're going to lead yourself and others astray in a judgmental path that causes so many of the teen suicides.

Oppositionally, I think there is the other camp which can just say, "Well, God makes everyone perfect and He wouldn't make someone to send them to hell" you miss out on some stuff too. There are verses in the Bible which specifically talk about requiring to commit your life to God in order to see the kingdom of heaven. God does make people, every single day, who may not ever see the kingdom of heaven because they do not choose Him. There are also verses which can contradict statements about homosexuality if read wrong, and unless you have read and understood those verses in context, both camps will be angry at each other and screaming until their blue in the face that the other is wrong.

To summize all of my ranting here, Jesus said to love others as you love God, and to love your enemies. Hate was never preached by Jesus, or any other spiritual leader from other religions e.g. Buddah, Mohamed, etc. If we are to love everyone, and accept them just as they are, then that throws out the option to hate or judge others. I'm not the one to say who is going to heaven or hell, nor am I the one to say which spiritual teaching is the right one, because honestly, that's not my place. Even if it was, I wouldn't do it, again looking to my example of Jesus, He never paraded around telling whom was going to heaven and hell. If someone directly asked Him about what they were doing in their life and what it would lead to, He was not afraid to say "Dude, you're doing it all wrong, do it this way and I promise that things will be fine" in much more eloquent terms of course.

My point is that I want to put this religion trail in perspective. Love and acceptance has been preached by every major spirituality, and even if you don't embrace spirituality, political leaders of all nationalities promote the same thing, even if their actions don't always reflect their words. That's what's especially wonderful about this LPSG community, is that we are able to accept each other, and be able to help each other through love and acceptance.

Iron sharpens iron, right?
 

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I don't want to tangent too much on this religion trail, but I just want to include my beliefs, in opposition to an earlier post, I don't think the Bible is flawed or has flawed information, we as humans are flawed. We read verses and figure out how they best apply to our lives. We then find religious leaders who interpret those same verses, and entrust them that they will guide us how the Lord is leading them.

For thousands of years we've been doing that as a people, and those people we entrust do not always have the best motives. The Bible has always been constant and non-changing in it's stance. Notice how it's always been Churches who have been changing. We're talking about the same institution that said it was demonic to be black, that if you masturbated you would be sent to hell, if you got married to a non-white you were going to hell, if you beat up your wife to a pulp God smiled upon you.

All of these things were because spiritual leaders with their own agenda misinterpreted verses and twisted them to be what they wanted them. The people who listened and respected that spiritual leader were the ones who followed them, and those people will have to answer up to what they did in the end.

The Bible says a few times to "test the Lord your God" and other verses relating to spiritual testing. In my eyes, the Bible was made to be read two ways, logically (e.g. reading the verses, stories, etc) and emotionally/feeling (e.g. praying, seeking wisdom, using your discernment) It's why there are Biblical Scholars and Spiritual Scholars. There are sects of the Christian church that do nothing but recite verses over and over, memorizing, reading, but not using much of their heart to feel out God and what He wants. Conversely, there are sects which do nothing but pray and seek out God's heart while not reading a single sentence in the Bible.

With that said, I think if you read verses that say "Homosexuality is a sin and disgusting to God" and you just accept that as the constant truth without praying about it, using your discernment, and really figuring out what the verse truly means practially, you're going to lead yourself and others astray in a judgmental path that causes so many of the teen suicides.

Oppositionally, I think there is the other camp which can just say, "Well, God makes everyone perfect and He wouldn't make someone to send them to hell" you miss out on some stuff too. There are verses in the Bible which specifically talk about requiring to commit your life to God in order to see the kingdom of heaven. God does make people, every single day, who may not ever see the kingdom of heaven because they do not choose Him. There are also verses which can contradict statements about homosexuality if read wrong, and unless you have read and understood those verses in context, both camps will be angry at each other and screaming until their blue in the face that the other is wrong.

To summize all of my ranting here, Jesus said to love others as you love God, and to love your enemies. Hate was never preached by Jesus, or any other spiritual leader from other religions e.g. Buddah, Mohamed, etc. If we are to love everyone, and accept them just as they are, then that throws out the option to hate or judge others. I'm not the one to say who is going to heaven or hell, nor am I the one to say which spiritual teaching is the right one, because honestly, that's not my place. Even if it was, I wouldn't do it, again looking to my example of Jesus, He never paraded around telling whom was going to heaven and hell. If someone directly asked Him about what they were doing in their life and what it would lead to, He was not afraid to say "Dude, you're doing it all wrong, do it this way and I promise that things will be fine" in much more eloquent terms of course.

My point is that I want to put this religion trail in perspective. Love and acceptance has been preached by every major spirituality, and even if you don't embrace spirituality, political leaders of all nationalities promote the same thing, even if their actions don't always reflect their words. That's what's especially wonderful about this LPSG community, is that we are able to accept each other, and be able to help each other through love and acceptance.

Iron sharpens iron, right?

Right On The Money!! :grinning-smiley-003
 
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You religious people crack me up. Leviticus 18:22 :
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." KJV
'Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman: that is detestable' CEV

Stay free or level up. I wasn't even a Christian in any part of my life but I know as much to be able to say that homosexuality isn't something that the Bible is friendly with.