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travis1985

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Have you read the other posts in this thread? I have to agree with you that the Bible clearly disapproves of homosexual activity, but you seem to have missed the discussion of how it's the activity that is mentioned in the Bible, not the orientation itself, and that the Leviticus quotation is a precarious source for talking about modern Christianity. Not recognizing those points weakens your argument.
 
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travis1985

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It never ceases to amaze me how people can be so angry at the idea of religion, yet not be able to be bothered to find out about it so they can at least form a coherent argument. I'd be embarrassed to present a point without legs to stand on.
 

Tattooed Goddess

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You religious people crack me up. Leviticus 18:22 :
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." KJV
'Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman: that is detestable' CEV

Stay free or level up. I wasn't even a Christian in any part of my life but I know as much to be able to say that homosexuality isn't something that the Bible is friendly with.

Seriously man. I recently deconverted out of religion and proudly call myself an Atheist. But I am surrounded by 98% Christians or believers of some degree in my life and online, if all Atheists had the attitude you have, we wouldn't have friends or family left.

Maybe you don't mind living a life of solitude or carefully checking the religious status card of everyone you come in contact with, but let others believe how they feel compelled to believe. The same way you and I are entitled to think even in this thread where we are the minority.

He is hurting no one. His parents are working hard to not beat him senselessly with the Bible like so many before him have experienced. They are wanting to hold on to their faith and find a way to have some semblance of a spiritual life while having their son in their lives. This is something to be respected. It's a notch or two down from the pedestal you have put yourself on.

Just because you and I have found a way to live without faith in a higher power doesn't make us superior to someone who hasn't. I know Quantum Physicists that go to mass. Does their knowledge of the universe interfere with their faith? Does their faith interfere with their calculator?

The world would be a horrible place if we only had people who believed in exactly what we do. Despite how we have it all figured out in our own mind.
 

92philip

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@Travis 1985, that's a great point you bring out. It makes a lot of sense. My parents are deeply religious, and it is for that reason that I haven't come out yet. They feel the same way, and I do agree that the Bible does forbade the external sexual acts of homosexuals.

But at the same time I know that I want to be open about my lifestyle. So James, just stick to your guns and live your life how you want to live it. Even if it means that your parents won't accept you.
 
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Look people I don't think you understand my reason for arguing. I argue solely and simply for the reason that it's fun and no else. The attempt at trying to show the weak points in my argument are completely irrelevant. Oh and I think someone was saying you can be gay just don't have sex since the bible doesn't have anything against being gay and not having sex.

What an astounding argument.

I hate religion from the very bottom of my heart. This is coming from someone who thought he was a believer for the majority of his life, until the age of reason so don't give me BS about me not finding the true blabla in religion. And no, nothing spectacular happened to me because of religion, I just think it's a pesky disease people just can't defeat.
 

Tattooed Goddess

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Look people I don't think you understand my reason for arguing. I argue solely and simply for the reason that it's fun and no else. The attempt at trying to show the weak points in my argument are completely irrelevant. Oh and I think someone was saying you can be gay just don't have sex since the bible doesn't have anything against being gay and not having sex.

What an astounding argument.

I hate religion from the very bottom of my heart. This is coming from someone who thought he was a believer for the majority of his life, until the age of reason so don't give me BS about me not finding the true blabla in religion. And no, nothing spectacular happened to me because of religion, I just think it's a pesky disease people just can't defeat.

Who gave you an argument about not finding the true bla blah in religion? No one is converting or deconverting anyone here in this thread. Atleast we weren't until you started slinging insults based on your personal feelings about religion.

You aren't the only one who hates religion, just try not to make every possible religious keyword you see a reason to tell people how stupid you think they are. There is where your argument is more flawed. I don't care if it is fun for you. People have to live their life in a way that works best for them, not best for you and me.

The OP has a life to live and he has enough working against him in the eyes of many Xtians that he doesn't need to start talking Hitchens and Dawkins just in time for Christmas. It's fun for you but it's not fun for anyone else and that is called Sadism.
 
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But you know deep down, you and everyone else love to argue this stuff too. I'm at least not lying about it and expressing it publicly. I never had an argument about religion that I didn't enjoy, even if I was the winning side or not. Sorry to seemingly have gone off topic but, the obvious reason this guy's dad was mad at him was, well religion.
 

Tattooed Goddess

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No I don't always like to argue it. Because sometimes it eats at a relationship or at someones core like a cancer to be told the things you want to tell them. It's not always fun to argue religion. He didn't say "Hey guys I'm up for a religious debate with my parents give me ammo to make fools out of them over turkey dinner!"

Don't make this thread what you want it to be because it's fun. Go to the Atheism page on Facebook and I'll see you over there. There is plenty to keep you busy in a fun way telling the weird religious trolls of every few minutes. This is not the platform to do it. It really isn't.
 

ActionBuddy

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How many times was the Bible re-written, re-translated, re-configured, and re-written again (usually for political reasons), by cranky, celibate monks for 2,000 years now?

At best, it's just some helpful parables. Reading "Moby Dick" will give you more wisdom.
 

Q Vee

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Look people I don't think you understand my reason for arguing. I argue solely and simply for the reason that it's fun and no else. The attempt at trying to show the weak points in my argument are completely irrelevant. Oh and I think someone was saying you can be gay just don't have sex since the bible doesn't have anything against being gay and not having sex.

What an astounding argument.

I hate religion from the very bottom of my heart. This is coming from someone who thought he was a believer for the majority of his life, until the age of reason so don't give me BS about me not finding the true blabla in religion. And no, nothing spectacular happened to me because of religion, I just think it's a pesky disease people just can't defeat.

But you know deep down, you and everyone else love to argue this stuff too. I'm at least not lying about it and expressing it publicly. I never had an argument about religion that I didn't enjoy, even if I was the winning side or not. Sorry to seemingly have gone off topic but, the obvious reason this guy's dad was mad at him was, well religion.

How many times was the Bible re-written, re-translated, re-configured, and re-written again (usually for political reasons), by cranky, celibate monks for 2,000 years now?

At best, it's just some helpful parables. Reading "Moby Dick" will give you more wisdom.

Attitudes like this are equivalent, in my observation, to the extreme view of any religious groups -- "Jihadists", Uber right-wing Christians, etc. -- you do not care about anyone else's point of view or feelings, so long as you get to spread your hate and disgust for those that are different from you. I find that attitude sad and dangerous. Human beings are capable of so much more, with so much less effort.

Thank you both for clearly identifying that you basically are not interested in being supportive to a fellow being. Be assured I will not continue to engage your negative diatribes in the future. But I will pray for you, especially on this Holy Day of Christ's Birth. God Bless You and Peace Be With You.
And A Very Merry Christmas To All!
 

Gamm

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The bible also says slavery is okay amonst other atrocities. Tell them not to be too selective in the passages they read. You're God's child no matter what. It could have been a lot worse... You could have been a Christian murderer (see Mark David Chapman)
Merry Christmas.
 

ggsitc

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Regardless, it had to do with making babies. It's all about the quiverfull. Having a bunch of kids is like having a feather in your cap in religiosity. When you are a gay man, well, you can't be cranking out babies to further the religious cause now can you?

This.

How many times was the Bible re-written, re-translated, re-configured, and re-written again (usually for political reasons), by cranky, celibate monks for 2,000 years now?

And this.

First of all to James, I am glad to hear there is some movement on behalf of your parents to what looks like some sort of reconciliation. A great Christmas present. :smile:

As for the Biblical discussion, the pastor of my church (ELCA Lutheran, also a gay-friendly denomination) has put the Bible's gay references into perspective numerous times, reminding us that at the times that the various books of the Bible were written -- and remember that they weren't all written at once! -- it was during times when infant mortality was appalling and most religions of the day had rules against sexual activity that didn't result in babies. It wasn't so much as being gay in and of itself was a sin, just that it was an activity that didn't make babies, so let's call it a sin to make people "behave" and make babies.

Also, each book of the Bible, particularly the New Testament, was written and targeted for a different audience and political and social climate in different years over at least a couple of centuries, and at least a millenia when you include the Old Testament. And that's before any of the numerous translations in the mutiple millenia that have followed. To find out what each book *really* says, one should read them in their original language and only then draw your own conclusions about what the Bible says.

FWIW, YMMV.

Merry Christmas.
 
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701757

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Attitudes like this are equivalent, in my observation, to the extreme view of any religious groups -- "Jihadists", Uber right-wing Christians, etc. -- you do not care about anyone else's point of view or feelings, so long as you get to spread your hate and disgust for those that are different from you. I find that attitude sad and dangerous. Human beings are capable of so much more, with so much less effort.

Thank you both for clearly identifying that you basically are not interested in being supportive to a fellow being. Be assured I will not continue to engage your negative diatribes in the future. But I will pray for you, especially on this Holy Day of Christ's Birth. God Bless You and Peace Be With You.
And A Very Merry Christmas To All!

You are forgetting one thing. This is the internet. You do not know who I am. In real life, I don't do this obviously, it would be too rude. Instead, I just think less of the people who have opinions that I do not find logical. But on the internet, I can simply say everything I think without a second thought. I love being as frank and truthful as much as I can, and I'm not going to suppress my desires to do so just so people think I'm nice and polite. Again, this is the internet and I give less than a shit about what people might think of me here. If I can even help one person think the way I do (since I logically concluded that my line of reasoning is quite true) it would make me happy.
 

aninnymouse

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You are forgetting one thing. This is the internet. You do not know who I am. In real life, I don't do this obviously, it would be too rude. Instead, I just think less of the people who have opinions that I do not find logical. But on the internet, I can simply say everything I think without a second thought. I love being as frank and truthful as much as I can, and I'm not going to suppress my desires to do so just so people think I'm nice and polite. Again, this is the internet and I give less than a shit about what people might think of me here. If I can even help one person think the way I do (since I logically concluded that my line of reasoning is quite true) it would make me happy.

So, you admit that you are just trolling to be an asshole. Very nice.

There's a difference between being "frank and truthful" and being a dick. You are being the latter.

I wish you well. You're gonna need some kinda help because I cannot see many people wanting to be around your winning personality.
 
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701757

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So, you admit that you are just trolling to be an asshole. Very nice.

There's a difference between being "frank and truthful" and being a dick. You are being the latter.

I wish you well. You're gonna need some kinda help because I cannot see many people wanting to be around your winning personality.

I don't see how expressing my honest opinion unlike you people is considered being an asshole. I think not expressing yourself as a whole is what I would consider just that. I am not able to be this way in real life due to people acting like you, but here I can. I see no point in paying respects to things I actually don't respect or just letting things slip by because it's the more lenient option.

Many of my close friends, even a lot of people that just know me know of my views against religion and this does not interfere with our relationship as friends, although several friends of mine friends chose to be atheists together with me or after me. If you think I'm doing this to be an asshole, you're wrong. I'm giving you guys the same deal I gave my friends back in high school.
 
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jameshawket

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I want to pull this whole thread back on topic and end the bunny trail of relgion. It's getting out of hand.

I got another email from my mom today, and she was basically saying the same thing my dad said, except her words to me were, "I can't live without you in my life" so I'm guessing that even though she may disagree with my life choices, she emotionally cannot just let me go like she thought she would be able to do when the two of them kicked me out.

Things are getting more positive, and hopefully the future is bright for us as a family.

Merry Christmas everyone.
 

aninnymouse

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I want to pull this whole thread back on topic and end the bunny trail of relgion. It's getting out of hand.

I got another email from my mom today, and she was basically saying the same thing my dad said, except her words to me were, "I can't live without you in my life" so I'm guessing that even though she may disagree with my life choices, she emotionally cannot just let me go like she thought she would be able to do when the two of them kicked me out.

Things are getting more positive, and hopefully the future is bright for us as a family.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Merry Christmas, Indeed! Excellent news. Here's to things getting even better soon.
 

MH07

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I want to pull this whole thread back on topic and end the bunny trail of relgion. It's getting out of hand.

I got another email from my mom today, and she was basically saying the same thing my dad said, except her words to me were, "I can't live without you in my life" so I'm guessing that even though she may disagree with my life choices, she emotionally cannot just let me go like she thought she would be able to do when the two of them kicked me out.

Things are getting more positive, and hopefully the future is bright for us as a family.

Merry Christmas everyone.

James,

Congratulations on finding your soulmate! That's an amazing feat and one that not everyone manages. Hooray for you!

Re: religious upbringing: I was raised Southern Baptist (VERY Southern Baptist). I never formally "came out" to my parents--kind of my own version of "don't ask don't tell". Eventually, they came to realize something they had always probably suspected--that I was "different"--and eventually I wound up telling (in almost an accidental way) my Dad. He was very accepting and loving about the whole situation. I tend to think if I had told him when I was in my 20's (and he his 50's), the discussion might have been different.

I hope your parents will be able to get past their religious beliefs and realize that you are still their son, and still the same person--just happier, because you've found love!

Re: religion. Having studied all this relatively extensively, and having thought about it a lot; having graduated from a large private Baptist university, having had lots of counseling and talks with various pastors, priests (I became Episcopalian in college and have been one since; most Episcopal churches are very welcoming), I have come to the conclusion that:

The Bible was written at different times by different people to different audiences living in a different world. As Mme. Rouge points out above, the Levitican law simply can't be taken literally by modern Americans. If you think it can, better re-read it. Some of the items are just bizarre, and, as Mme. Rouge also points out, were aimed primarily at increasing the health, well-being, and numbers of the Jews.

Once you realize that the Bible contradicts itself in the very first chapter of the very first book (there are two creation stories in Genesis, back-to-back, fused together by the "author", and they are incompatible--it's one or the other if you take it literally; go read it), then you arrive at the conclusion that the Bible is NOT meant to be taken literally, but more a "guide". At that point, you stop worrying so much about what the various religions and denominations--none of which, in my view, have it totally "right"--and start living a good and decent life, without fear or worry about what others think, or how they interpret the Bible, etc.

You'll be a lot happier.

I hope your parents are able to overcome their problems--and these feelings are THEIR problems, not YOURS; YOU are the one who has kept his wits about him and been "normal"; THEY are the ones flipping out. I think perhaps they might calm down and come around--and that would be a good thing for both you and them.

Meanwhile, again, congratulations on your beloved!

And...where are the pictures?!?! ;)
 
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