Dad Update

[onewatcher]

I would be so proud to have a son as wise as you. Your man and you are going to have a wonderful life together. Most people preach of a vengfull God.. I tend
to regard him as a loving father. Remember "For God so loved the world "

 

[travis1985]

On the Bible "contradicting" itself, I find that most examples of this people are able to come up with (and you rarely hear of any other than the Creation and the Nativity, which are the ones people without extensive education on the matter are spoon-fed when informed of this notion) are actually just separate accounts of the same event. You can choose to either use critical thinking to find how they are harmonized and add up to a clearer picture of what is being described, or you can run with the assumption that telling the same story twice and the two tellings not being verbatim equals a "contradiction."

1) On my day off, I met Tim for dinner. Then I went to the grocery store on 22nd and bought groceries. After that I went home and went to bed.

2) Tim and I went to the movies on my day off. That night I bought some booze and went to Tim's house. Later, I had sex with Marie and stayed the night there.

Some might say: Well, what did you do with Tim? Did you guys go out to eat or did you see a movie? And did you buy groceries at the 22nd Street Market, or did you go to the liquor store after that? And what's with where you slept? Did you go home and straight to bed, or did you fuck Marie and stay at her place? And why tell the same story twice if you can't even keep it straight? You're contradicting yourself.

Others might say: So I guess you met Tim for dinner and went on to a movie with him afterwards. Apparently you went somewhere and bought something after that. Maybe you went to 22nd Street and bought groceries and then stopped off at the liquor store. Or maybe it's a state where liquor stores can be housed in supermarkets, and that's why you didn't mention it as a separate stop. Then did you go home, go to bed, fail to be able to sleep, and booty call Marie? Or, is Marie your roommate and you went to bed with her and spent the night in her room within your own home? You could be more clear about exactly how you spent your day off.

The whole contradiction thing reads as a study of what individuals choose to see. Those who believe in the Bible as infallible will seek out harmonization and understand that different details and slants are appropriate for different purposes, and not all versions of the same events will be identical. Those who are tend toward voluntary skepticism will take a surface inconsistency at face value as an affirmation that it's all made up, and seem to forget their usual mantra that nothing in the Bible can be expected to be as clear as it might appear because it has been so oft translated and revised.

For you to say "it's one or the other if you take it literally -- go read it" is about as enlightened, respectful, and informed on the complicated subject as it would be for me to say "pull your head out and learn some critical thinking skills." Both would be petulant and closed-minded things to say.

And I know you've had scriptural education. So have I. It's no more your way or the highway than it is mine.

 

[jameshawket]

^THIS!

 

[travis1985]

It's also supposed to be a big deal that the Bible was not written all in one sitting but over the course of centuries and edited/compiled later. Everyone knows that, but the Bible naysayers portray it as some shocking secret that religious fanatics are trying to conceal.

Don't history books from the 1920's take a different view of events and present them differently (different details, different perspectives, even different ideas about what events do and do not warrant a mention) than those published in the 1960's or the 2000's? Does a reasonable person sit down with textbooks from different time periods, make a list of every time one detail is emphasized over another, every time a person or event is mentioned or omitted, every time one favors the redcoats for firing the first shot at Concord while another favors the colonists, and deduce that this equates to a series of contradictions and therefore you can't put any stock in any history book, and you can pick and choose and make things up regardless of what is written and have it be true?

All of these are reasons I find the old "the Bible contradicts itself" argument tired and flimsy. Most people who swear by it love reminding everyone that the Bible was compiled by countless people over countless years and translated, rearranged, revised, restored, and reinterpreted countless times.... yet still insist that it should be completely linear, concise, and free of any ambiguity? If it's self-contradiction you're after, look no further than that!

 

[D_phn98uyp]

[Long post]

I always feel the need to preface my posts, so if anyone has read my former stuff, skip down a bit:

Back in early October I came out to my parents while I was staying for the weekend at their house. They overreacted, kicked me out, and told me never to come back until I was "fixed" and a Christian "again." They took my car away, because they were helping me with payments on it, my cell phone, and cut off ties between my brother and I. For the last two months I've gotten constant emails saying how much I'm hurting them, how I'm choosing "this life" over my family, how I'm sinning and going to hell, etc.
I need to mention that my boyfriend of almost five months is going to be my first and last. I'm crazy about this guy, and I'm ready and wanting to marry him the second we are in postiions to do so. He is my soulmate, and my everything.
That being said, it was really hard to choose him over my family. I knew this would be the response I got from them, so I knew that I either had to dump him to keep my family in my life, or stay with him like I want to do and potentially lose my family forever. I wanted him, more than I needed them, so I chose to come out and accept the consequences.

OK, so with that prefaced haha.

I got another email from my dad a few days ago, it was the same kind of email. I pretty much responded with this long response about how his email get my frustrated because he doesn't see my side, he's not understanding me at all, that I'm still a Christian, that I'm still doing life right, and that he's missing out on who I am in this moment because of his stubbornness. The message included much more, but I'm keeping it brief.

So I'm guessing that took him back a bit because he responded with a really... oddly loving and understanding message, and in my dad's oh-so-stubborn way, I could see hints and underlying tones of sadness and regret for what he did and said that day, as well as a LOT of apologizing.

He and my mom are going to more intensive counseling, and they, from what it sounds like, have been going from pastor to pastor all over their area and even farther out. My guess is that they're trying to subtly find a pastor who will confirm my orientation Biblically, and explain to them that I'm still a Christian, and somehow approve my lifestyle so that they can have a relationship with me again and be in the clear with God, but not outright saying that. My parents are very sneaky.

From what it looks like, the future may be getting brighter with my family, but I'm still just so conflicted and confused. My boyfriend is my everything, if we can someday adopt children or get a surroget, we're going to do it. We want to spend our lives with each other, and if things get better between ME and my family, I don't know if that will necessarily mean good things for them and my future husband. I don't know if I could even have a relationship with them if they couldn't accept my husband, or even my boyfriend right now. It's hard, because I feel like I'll have to pick a side again when that time comes.

More so I just wanted to post on here to let you all know how things are going, and the updates with this situation, since there were quite a few messages I got asking me to update you all.

If you have any thoughts at all, I'd love to hear them. It's hard to summarize two and half months into a smallish post, so I understand that this is a very broad post, but if you have anything to say, please don't hesitate to say it.

Thanks for sharing your story. It touched my heart more than you can possibly know. You have received some good comments here, especially from Ryan. Some were not so great because they haven't "walked in your shoes".

You have to follow your heart. If you are a Christian, your heart will tell you what to do. It's not a "gut feeling", It is God talking to you.

I never had to come out to my parents because they were both deceased before I decided to act on my feelings. I wish I had been given the choice you have because I'm sure my mother would have told me to be myself and forget what other might think. Unfortunately, my father would have acted the same way yours did. Without parent's or friend's help I made bad choices and I am still living with the guilt and consequences of making those choices. You have a chance to do the "right thing", which should be what's right for YOU. If others don't like your decisions, that is their problem.

Life isn't fair and sometimes we have to look the other way when we can't please everyone. When it's cold and lonely outside, you are the one who has to decide to sleep alone or sleep with someone you love with all your heart. Your choice and yours alone. Your Mom and Dad made the same choices. It's not their right to tell you how you should decide and I think it's sad that they are making it so hard for you. As previously said, they do love you, so you should take it slow and easy with them...but only to a point.

Best wishes young man from a "gay guy" who wished he had been free to self-label himself that way many, many years ago.

 

[molotovmuffin]

I don't see how expressing my honest opinion unlike you people is considered being an asshole. I think not expressing yourself as a whole is what I would consider just that. I am not able to be this way in real life due to people acting like you, but here I can. I see no point in paying respects to things I actually don't respect or just letting things slip by because it's the more lenient option.

Many of my close friends, even a lot of people that just know me know of my views against religion and this does not interfere with our relationship as friends, although several friends of mine friends chose to be atheists together with me or after me. If you think I'm doing this to be an asshole, you're wrong. I'm giving you guys the same deal I gave my friends back in high school.

If you can't do it to a persons face, why would you do it at all? IF it's rude one way, it's rude the other. You're a fake and a troll.

 

[D_Terry_Tugnuts]

Forget this original sin garbage that the Xtians use to 'put the frighteners' on people. You do not need another entity to die to save you from sin. You are as nature, not as some petty vengeful desert deity of ignorant tribal people, intended. Free yourself from this rubbish, ignore religious bigots and live your life as a truly free person. If your relatives still believe this nonsense, you're better off without them.

 

[Mogluver]

James my positive thoughts and prayers are with you, this life is such a journey, with ups and downs. I am in my late 50's and have discovered that these events and challenges we go through are only training for the next challenge. Most folks don't learn from these events, and by nature continue to repeat previous attitudes, never growing in mind and spirit.

You are a man of great courage, as others have said, continue to follow your heart and be true to yourself. You have positive intent and if you continue to hold true to your values and beliefs those qualities will shine and you will be an example for others to follow. Thank you for sharing your adventure with your parents.

 

[freeballininnyc]

I have two quick points.

1. Regarding Biblical teachings - this was where the majority of my struggle was based when I was coming out to myself, nevermind anyone else. I struggled and struggled. And I studied. It seemed incredible to me, that as much as I longed for men, as opposed to women, that it was somehow wrong. I found some research that said that in a historical context, the teachings of the Bible were somewhat misleading. Ok. Still not good enough - study more. More research that suggests that during translation, the word "homosexual" was used when there wasn't really a translation for "homosexual". Very interesting. Couple that with other issues I have with Biblical teachings and it all boiled down to this, for me: Man wrote the Bible. Not God. Man decided what texts would be in the Bible. Not God. Man translated the Bible. Not God. Man is fallible. Not God. I chose to put my trust and faith in God. Not man. I was raised to believe that all prayers are answered. You may not get the answer you wanted but you always get an answer. I liked that and believe it to this day. After years and years of praying, "God take this away", I realized, maybe it's not supposed to go away. Maybe not changing me is God's answer. Maybe continuing to pray for change is a slap in the face to Him. Problem resolved.

With regard to your parents all I can do is offer some perspective. Be with who you want to be with. Regardless of your relationship with your parents, good or bad, one day they will be gone. And then it's just you. Or, just you and someone else who loves and cares about you. Live your life for YOU, not someone else.

I wish you all the happiness and peace that is possible.

 

[753960]

that's nice points.

 

[753960]

James my positive thoughts and prayers are with you, this life is such a journey, with ups and downs. I am in my late 50's and have discovered that these events and challenges we go through are only training for the next challenge. Most folks don't learn from these events, and by nature continue to repeat previous attitudes, never growing in mind and spirit.

You are a man of great courage, as others have said, continue to follow your heart and be true to yourself. You have positive intent and if you continue to hold true to your values and beliefs those qualities will shine and you will be an example for others to follow. Thank you for sharing your adventure with your parents.

you're so brave to share your exprience.

 

[needtonut]

Share this article with your parents... Written by Mel White who used to be a ghost writer for Billy Graham. It's a great article for those who grew up in a religious, fundamentalist household with family members who still use the bible to condem who they were born to be.
Also a great article to read for people who have ever been in a discussion with those who misquote scriptures to promote their own judgemental stances against gay people.
What the Bible Says - And Doesn't Say - About Homosexuality

 

[NCbear]

I would be so proud to have a son as wise as you. . . .

This.

NCbear (who knows your family will come around someday ats OP on the back and gives OP a hug

 

[ColonialBoy]

On the Bible "contradicting" itself, I find that most examples of this people are able to come up with (and you rarely hear of any other than the Creation and the Nativity,

Whether the Bible is true or not, the main contradictions are in the church.

For some reason the social contructs of religion is relative but science is absolute. The two World Wars were between predominantly Christian countries (how many wars have been started by Buddhists). The Western Schism, protestantism, wildly differing interpretations of the Bible depending on where you were born. Religion has merged into politics.

How can people be burned at the stake in the middle ages by Christians but that is now considered barbaric. Christianity means - whatever you want it to mean at that point in history.

On the other hand the science of Pythgoras has remained the same for two thousand years.

Modern Western societies are essentially based on Secular Humanism with the local brand of religion/politics tacked on. But dont tell anyone that.
Secular humanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for the OPs parents, they seem unaware of the societal constructs that led to their beliefs. They are going through the grief cycle & trying to rationalize. By the way, its far better to get counseling from a professional psychologist than mumbo-jumbo from church pastors.

 

[needtonut]

Share this article with your parents... Written by Mel White who used to be a ghost writer for Billy Graham. It's a great article for those who grew up in a religious, fundamentalist household with family members who still use the bible to condem who they were born to be.
Also a great article to read for people who have ever been in a discussion with those who misquote scriptures to promote their own judgemental stances against gay people.
What the Bible Says - And Doesn't Say - About Homosexuality

I just check and for some reason, the English link is not working. I just emailed Mel White and asked for another way to find this great article. I'll post again if it gets corrected.

 

[D_Sal_Manilla]

Picture this following scenario,

An engineering professor is treating her husband, a loan officer, to dinner for finally giving in to her pleas to shave off the scraggly beard he grew on vacation. His favorite restaurant is a casual place where they both feel comfortable in slacks and cotton/polyester-blend golf shirts. But, as always, she wears the gold and pearl pendant he gave her the day her divorce decree was final. They're laughing over their menus because they know he always ends up diving into a giant plate of ribs but she won't be talked into anything more fattening than shrimp.

Now, let me give you a quiz.

Quiz: How many biblical prohibitions are they violating? Well, wives are supposed to be 'submissive' to their husbands (I Peter 3:1). And all women are forbidden to teach men (I Timothy 2:12), wear gold or pearls (I Timothy 2:9) or dress in clothing that 'pertains to a man' (Deuteronomy 22:5). Shellfish and pork are definitely out (Leviticus 11:7, 10) as are usury (Deuteronomy 23:19), shaving (Leviticus 19:27) and clothes of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19). And since the Bible rarely recognizes divorce, they're committing adultery, which carries the rather harsh penalty of death by stoning (Deuteronomy 22:22).


So why are they having such a good time? Probably because they wouldn't think of worrying about rules that seem absurd, out of date or - at best - unrealistic. Yet this same modern-day couple could easily be among the millions of Americans who never hesitate to lean on the Bible to justify their own anti-gay attitudes. Can we really use religion to rub out homosexuality while we ourselves break bible rules and regulations every day?



I knew my parents would never accept me. So when i was younger i suppressed my homosexuality. it came to a point where i contemplated suicide. I've had enough and when i came out, my dad told me to jump in front of a train. Later on he said that i was killing my mother.

How did I handle it?

Well i stopped caring. if they have a problem with who i am then it their problem. not mine. You have to see that as a person, you have to love yourself first. and you can't do that, if you don't follow your heart. (As corny as that may be) you will never be truly happy. You can't go by in life trying to please everyone and fitting into the mold that they have for you.

In recent years my parents have come to accept me. it's still taboo for them but it better than it was before.

The thing with parents is that they have this image of how their baby will be and when it doesn't work out that way, they become angry, or upset. i know i would too if i had a daughter. but they will accept you in time. for now, live your life or you will regret it after.


always keep in mind who's happiness is more important. i know it may seem selfish but it's the truth.

 

[B_Nicodemous]

James, how are things going now?

 

[jameshawket]

Things are right back to where they always have been. The difference is that my parents are more vocal about blaming themselves. They're going to a Christian therapy group which teaches them how to cope, and basically tells them how much of their fault it is that I'm bisexual, and they're being brainwashed into self hate, yet they don't see it. It's really sad, and I feel bad for them.

 

[B_Nicodemous]

Man, that blows! There has to be other churches that offer therapy in the sense of acceptance, right? I am so sorry, dude :frown:

 

[Cylon No1]

Things are right back to where they always have been. The difference is that my parents are more vocal about blaming themselves. They're going to a Christian therapy group which teaches them how to cope, and basically tells them how much of their fault it is that I'm bisexual, and they're being brainwashed into self hate, yet they don't see it. It's really sad, and I feel bad for them.

its nobodies fault so chill and get over it!! All of you your folks as well.Dont let it get to you.If they love you they must take you as you are.A guy I know said his mother blamed it on the hairspry!!!Now you can see this whole thing is not worth worring about.Trust me.Need to talk p/m me