Dear Liberals of the USA ...

vince

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As the French develop twenty-first century technology and eat American's proverbial lunch in terms of innovation, the Americans fret over squeezing the last few drops of oil out of wildlife refuges to maintain our late nineteenth century energy tradition. Tragic.
Actually ex, it isn't a new idea. Evidently hundreds of trams were in use in the 19th century and they were used in the mining industry because of their inherent safety.

Air Car Factories - The History of Compressed Air Vehicles

There is an interesting paragraph near the bottom of the page which says the oil industry did their best to block further investigation in to air vehicles after WWII.
 

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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Good points and you are talking too an fan of alternate fuels but macroeconomics dictate a slow change away from fossil oil so since that’s the case, I say we fire up the domestic drills as fast as possible!

This is a profoundly idealistic American consumer mentality. Face it: the more you get, the more you want. Don't put too much faith in American socioeconomics to solve the energy crisis; The U.S. is so driven by status symbols that Americans will ultimately persue image over financial security--as witnessed by Americans' over-reliance on credit, and the recent sub-prime housing crash. Americans love buying what they can't afford. Rising gas prices haven't changed this mentality--look on the roads and count the new SUV's. The last time I checked, the prices of bicycles haven't gone up: Americans are addicted to ego, not oil.

Blaming Big Oil is great politics, but it is a fallacy. The truth is, the oil companies are locked out of so many oil-producing coutnries that they can't meet the demand, thus the rising prices. Of course, increasing domestic output would help meet demands, but this won't solve the larger problems of finite supply and environmental impact. Which is weightier? You yanks have enjoyed cheap oil for far too long. Who remembers the 70's Ford LTDs and Thunderbirds? They were houses on wheels.

Have you people who are whining about oil prices actually tried to make a change in your own habits? Do you drive at the speed limit, plan your errands better, invite a co-worker that lives nearby to carpool with you, avoid idling in drive-thrus and while waiting for your kid at school? Do you drive to the convenience store that's a few blocks down the road? When was the last time you took the bus? While I'm on my rant, does paying an extra $3.00 at the pump really effect your life that much, especially if you are about to drive to Starbucks to buy a $5.00 frapaccino?

Rising fuel prices and a possible carbon tax could be enough to effect a significant change, but the government and oil barons will end up squandering the saved money anyway. No wonder the American Petroleum Institute doesn’t oppose this plan.

I have no doubt that you will "fire up the domestic drills", burn more oil, cover America in smog just so that you can save some pennies. America is slowly becoming a second-rate economy as the rest of the world deals with the real issue of fuel alternatives.


Continuing to think fossil fuels are the answer is a mistake. It's a Band-Aid on a big problem.

Amen, bro.

As the French develop twenty-first century technology and eat American's proverbial lunch in terms of innovation, the Americans fret over squeezing the last few drops of oil out of wildlife refuges to maintain our late nineteenth century energy tradition. Tragic.

QFT!

Before I get accused of being anti-American (again), I just want to say that I do not believe that I am anti-American. Americans need to reclaim the quality of life that they once had; the growth and opportunity that their parents could enjoy. It's not really about gas; it's about compassion and accountability--providence, not ego.

How ironic is it that Americans use gas prices as their inflation index? :rolleyes:
 
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The United States is 3.79 MILLION square miles (and that's just counting the lower 48). Buses do not go everywhere everyone needs to go. No mass transit does. I live in the highly populous northeast, 50 miles from Manhattan, and I can take mass transit to precisely ONE place: New York. If I want to go to the grocery store, clothes, electronics, housewares, book, toys, or anything else, I have to drive to get there and New York is considered to have the best mass transit system in the country.

We are also living with the reality of massive suburbs designed ages ago by people now dead who thought gasoline was endless. Many people live in areas which are exclusively residential, serviced only by highways which do not permit pedestrian traffic and, if you do walk, you're taking your life in your hands. The entirety of suburban America was designed around the automobile. The commercial and industrial centers are no better, put into industrial parks and malls with no pedestrian access. What do you suggest we do? Raze them all and rebuild? The average one-way commute time for an American is 26 minutes and most of that is by car. The US is a sprawling country, built over large areas, and most of it has been developed with the car in mind. Erasing that social geography will be next to impossible.

It is immensely frustrating to be an American listening to people from outside the country pontificating about how Americans should do this or that or the other thing. How hypocritical is that when we constantly hear foreigners complaining about the US doing the same thing? No attempt is made to understand why Americans are dependent upon cars or why I can't just walk a quarter mile to a store (hint: there aren't any stores, sidewalks, streetlights, or even a line in the center of the road) or why our gas is so much cheaper than yours. Where I live, though it is a mere 50 miles from Manhattan, you are DEAD without a car. The nearest mass transit stop is in what we call a, "Park and Ride." It's on the side of the road miles away from where I live and, once again, it's only useful if I have to go to the city, not the next town over. The nearest mall is 26 miles away and the large national chains killed local clothing retailers, appliance stores, bookstores, and just about everything else short of service businesses. Even our grocery store, which services 30,000+ people is losing money for its chain and it's the only one in town AND it's overpriced and sucks! If you think my situation is unique, just pull up Google Earth sometime and look at the various population densities. Enormous swaths of the country have tiny towns with rural farms miles from even the nearest neighbor, let alone post office.

If you have expensive gasoline, don't blame us for your government's taxation policies. Complain to your elected officials (if you have them). Many countries pay up to 300% more in gasoline taxes than the US does. If you don't like it then go bitch to your own people, not us. We don't bitch about you when you have better schools and health care do we? We may envy you, but we don't complain that you have something we don't. That's childish.

Nothing more obnoxious than telling someone how they should live their lives without living that life themselves.
 

vince

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The points you make are valid rec, but I don't think that it's only an American problem. Canadians are every bit as bad. I'd say it's a worldwide problem. The causes of energy shortages and environmental are global. Whether it's the rain forests being slashed and burned, nuclear subs rotting in Murmansk, or Joe Schmoe driving his Tahoe 15 miles to "consume" a low-fat decaf mocachino. We are all collectively to blame.

In Istanbul or any other Turkish city, there are huge amounts of all types of buses available for mass transit. But so many of them, are so out of tune, that you should have as gas mask if you are driving behind them. I swear you could take everyone on them, put them each in a Chevy Tahoe, and there would be less pollution. Of course no one could move because the roads would be totally choked. It's a scene repeated millions of times every day in every city in the 'second world'.

Go to Europe. Look at the display as people drive their ego fueled 75,000 euro Audis at 250km/hour on the autobahns. Sure they have better transit, but I don't believe they have any monopoly on the virtuous use of petrol. You can't drive anywhere in France in the summer months. The roads are chock-a-block with cars.

I think we all need to reclaim the quality of life we once had. We need to invest in energy conservation, energy efficiency and get off our collective butts to take individual responsibility for the choices we make. Also, it wouldn't hurt to elect some intelligent and incorruptible leaders while we're at it.

Again, I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying it's not only about America.
 

vince

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I get really tired of hearing Americans getting all sensitive about outsiders criticizing the US.

It works both ways. I have heard Americans on this board and in other places all my life, spouting off about other countries and other religions and other cultures. The spouting is often ill informed BS, or downright bigotry. But the minute someone dares to say something negative about the land of the "free", they are frequently met with a big "fuck off", or "we saved your asses in WWII, you bunch of ingrates", often from the same folks thinking it may be a good idea to bomb Iran back into the stone age.

Who's interfering with who? Who doesn't understand who?

btw- maybe if Americans had been paying extra taxes on gasoline instead of wasting it in 12 mile per gallon guzzlers for the last umpteen years, they could have payed for a half-decent public transportation system.
 

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I live in Atlanta, and don't even get me started on the transit problems. We have people still stuck in the racist beliefs that transit will increase crime in their precious areas, or people will move there that are deemed undesirable.

So jason, you are right. People do live in enclaves and aren't able to get around without a car. However, I think that we should be working on our transit systems. There is no reason that the transit system where you live cannot even go to the town next to yours.
 

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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The United States is 3.79 MILLION square miles (and that's just counting the lower 48). Buses do not go everywhere everyone needs to go. No mass transit does. I live in the highly populous northeast, 50 miles from Manhattan, and I can take mass transit to precisely ONE place: New York. If I want to go to the grocery store, clothes, electronics, housewares, book, toys, or anything else, I have to drive to get there and New York is considered to have the best mass transit system in the country.
I really didn't want to get into a tit-for-tat Canada vs. U.S. argument, but I have to say that Canada is alot bigger and I really don't see your point. I can, and have, taken the city bus to anywhere I wanted to go--even the country. I'm sorry that you can't take mass transit to more places but don't fault me for that.
We are also living with the reality of massive suburbs designed ages ago by people now dead who thought gasoline was endless. Many people live in areas which are exclusively residential, serviced only by highways which do not permit pedestrian traffic and, if you do walk, you're taking your life in your hands. The entirety of suburban America was designed around the automobile.
We have similar problems with urban sprawl. We have cities (Barrie, Burlington, Kanata, for example) that are giant suburbs, but you can still take the bus pretty much anywhere you want.

The commercial and industrial centers are no better, put into industrial parks and malls with no pedestrian access. What do you suggest we do? Raze them all and rebuild?
Burn more oil until the acid rain dissolves the buildings and then your problems are neatly solved.

The average one-way commute time for an American is 26 minutes and most of that is by car. The US is a sprawling country, built over large areas, and most of it has been developed with the car in mind. Erasing that social geography will be next to impossible.
I sympathize, but a change is needed, regardless. Dependance on oil does no good to anybody. Changing a country's infrastructure would be incredibly expensive, but not impossible. It's a shame that you didn't start it decades ago, but instead you Yanks will be scrambling to catch up when the wells start to run dry.

It is immensely frustrating to be an American listening to people from outside the country pontificating about how Americans should do this or that or the other thing. How hypocritical is that when we constantly hear foreigners complaining about the US doing the same thing?
No hypocrisy here. I've spent plenty of time in the U.S. and I've been near your neck of the woods quite often. I've been to all four corners of the US, and I've seen some great solutions (I love Seattles monorail) and some awful solutions (10-lane highways in L.A.). Have you ever been to a country, like Denmark, Iceland or Canada where there is far less depencence on cars? The problem isn't oil, it's attitude. I am honestly shocked that you take offence to somebody who suggests that America should become less dependent on cars.

[...]
If you have expensive gasoline, don't blame us for your government's taxation policies. Complain to your elected officials (if you have them). Many countries pay up to 300% more in gasoline taxes than the US does. If you don't like it then go bitch to your own people, not us. We don't bitch about you when you have better schools and health care do we? We may envy you, but we don't complain that you have something we don't. That's childish.
Was this directed at me? I am not bitching about the price of gasoline. I'm far more concerned about the general use of fossil fuels, and the apathy towards rebuilding a sustainable transportation infrastructure and the aversion many people have to alternative fuels.

Nothing more obnoxious than telling someone how they should live their lives without living that life themselves.

I was not preaching--That's not my style. I was whining :)

Jason, you seem like a nice guy. Do you really think that this is such a non-issue, and that the only problem is the price of gas?
 
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I get really tired of hearing Americans getting all sensitive about outsiders criticizing the US.

Howabout anyone criticizing other countries at all? Do you think the Japanese would appreciate me walking in to their country and tell them to fuck more because they're dying out? They should stop whaling too and, for that matter, their civil rights record is atrocious in every area from aboriginal peoples to the disabled. Certainly these are valid points, and if they're valid, why not tell them what to do?

It works both ways. I have heard Americans on this board and in other places all my life, spouting off about other countries and other religions and other cultures. The spouting is often ill informed BS, or downright bigotry. But the minute someone dares to say something negative about the land of the "free", they are frequently met with a big "fuck off", or "we saved your asses in WWII, you bunch of ingrates", often from the same folks thinking it may be a good idea to bomb Iran back into the stone age.

I'm glad you see that it does work both ways because for all the spouting some Americans engage in there are plenty non-Americans ready to write off America as a bunch of fat, SUV-driving, Christian fundamentalists who blow each other to bits at the slightest provocation and I resent that as much as any other national has the right to resent me telling them what's wrong with their country and telling them how to fix it.

Who's interfering with who? Who doesn't understand who?

Unsolicited complaints presented as friendly advice laced with a tinge of contempt don't go down well no matter who is saying it.

btw- maybe if Americans had been paying extra taxes on gasoline instead of wasting it in 12 mile per gallon guzzlers for the last umpteen years, they could have payed for a half-decent public transportation system.

Already the money we earmark for transportation doesn't go to transportation. Our infrastructure is bordering on the third world because of lack of maintenance. I agree it's our problem, but gas taxes hit the rural middle class and working poor the hardest.

I'd suggest a zone-based gas tax based upon population densities derived from census data. The denser the zone, the higher the tax so as to discourage needless driving in areas that are served by mass transit without penalizing the rural areas which either can't afford mass transit systems or where they'd be an impractical waste of money.
 
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I really didn't want to get into a tit-for-tat Canada vs. U.S. argument, but I have to say that Canada is alot bigger and I really don't see your point. I can, and have, taken the city bus to anywhere I wanted to go--even the country. I'm sorry that you can't take mass transit to more places but don't fault me for that.

If you live in a city you're in a transportation hub and can travel to many places. If you live outside of the city, however, you have no such choices without traveling into the city to go somewhere else not on the same line. I know Ottawa rather well and there's not much of anything around Ottawa. Try to see the situation from the perspective of people who don't live or work in Ottawa. They just want to get from one podunk town to another, not in and out of Ottawa. They don't earn Ottawa salaries either. For them, increased gas prices are crippling.

We have similar problems with urban sprawl. We have cities (Barrie, Burlington, Kanata, for example) that are giant suburbs, but you can still take the bus pretty much anywhere you want.

Then you have a great system. You also have a country where 75% of the people live within 100 miles of the US border. That concentrates your population heavily along a single band where the great majority of people can get to the great majority of other people. The transit system doesn't have to be as widespread. Here in the US however, rural areas run from the Canadian border to the southern border over much of the interior of the country.

Burn more oil until the acid rain dissolves the buildings and then your problems are neatly solved.

Well that's mostly the coal plants out in the midwest. I agree, they're awful though I don't think your solution is ecologically or economically feasible.

I sympathize, but a change is needed, regardless. Dependance on oil does no good to anybody. Changing a country's infrastructure would be incredibly expensive, but not impossible. It's a shame that you didn't start it decades ago, but instead you Yanks will be scrambling to catch up when the wells start to run dry.

I hope you realize, "you Yanks," sounds like your standing in front of me pointing an indignant finger at my chest. It comes off as rude.

Yes, change is needed, yes it's expensive. The reason it didn't start decades ago was because it wasn't economically feasible to do so. Building suburbs is cheaper than rebuilding cities. Building highways was seen as the way of the future because carrying people and freight was cheaper and faster than rail. All those wonderful just-in-time practices that make one business survive while the other dies rely on trucking and fossil fuels. When the baby boom began we had to put all those people somewhere and all that open rural space using a highway to get to the urban areas was the cheapest way to put a couple, their 2.5 kids, and their car in business. Time went on and houses got bigger, cars got bigger, and still people ran to the suburbs as soon as they had babies to avoid raising their kids in cities that were on the decline. Office and industrial parks could be built off existing highways for far less than building rail. Many of these places have people working in them who live from all different points in the surrounding area. There's no way you could manage a bus system for all or even most employees of these sorts of facilities.

Couple this with a declining standard of living, and it's disaster. There are people who commute to New York every day from nearly 100 miles away not because they want to live in the sticks but because they can't afford to live in a safe neighborhood on what they earn. Where I am, 50 miles outside New York, rents and housing prices are astronomical because most people here work in the city and make city salaries. The people who actually work in my county can't afford to live in the county and so they commute from even further north and there is just no way you could devise a workable mass transit system that collects 2-3 people from one town, 10 from another, and 2 from yet another when those towns are 15 or 20 miles apart on 2-lane roads. People would never get to where they work.

No hypocrisy here. I've spent plenty of time in the U.S. and I've been near your neck of the woods quite often. I've been to all four corners of the US, and I've seen some great solutions (I love Seattles monorail) and some awful solutions (10-lane highways in L.A.). Have you ever been to a country, like Denmark, Iceland or Canada where there is far less depencence on cars? The problem isn't oil, it's attitude. I am honestly shocked that you take offence to somebody who suggests that America should become less dependent on cars.

Denmark is tiny, flat, and most of the population is concentrated in and around Copenhagen. Iceland has about 300,000 people, most of which live right around Reykjavik and the rest live on a ring road surrounding the island. Canada would be most like the US save that vast areas of Canada are nearly or wholly unoccupied. To make mass transit work you need to have densely populated areas with the rural areas not terribly far from any densely populated area. Europe did not embrace the suburb/exurb/rural model to anything like the extent of the US because it was not feasible and even in the few places that did, like the moribund housing estates of the home counties around London, the distances are many times smaller while the densities remained higher.

Here in the US, the most common desirable suburban lot is 3 acres. Towns in building booms increase lot size to offset uncontrolled growth and make those lots low-density single-family homes because the towns don't have the money to support services for high-density housing. Here in my town everyone I grew-up with has left because they were priced out of town by the astronomical property taxes and the taxes are astronomical because essential services have to be spread over such a geographically large area of low density homes. And the whole reason this happened to my town was because the suburbs closer to the city were gaining so much in value that people there were priced out. It's a domino effect and it's occurring because, as a nation, we're getting poorer, not richer, and the gulf between rich and poor is widening. Our parents and grandparents and great-grandparents who lived through the biggest economic boom in the history of the world that was the United States couldn't imagine that the country would decline. Sure there might be setbacks, but on the whole, they thought the United States would last for 1,000 years and built the country we're inheriting to resemble a prosperous nation of unlimited energy and economic prosperity. These are the same generations who enacted social programs that will benefit themselves and leave the younger generations with a huge bill that they can't afford. Social Security is a pyramid scheme and grew like one because no one in power foresaw that costs would outstrip earnings and that the baby boom would be followed by a baby bust. There's a mythic culture in the US that says you will do better than your parents. You will have a bigger house, nicer car, more bling. When you look at the average closet space in a house built in the 1920s (a time of prosperity) and now, you find that new houses have closets that equal the entire floorspace of the 1920s house! We were told by people who fervently believed it, you will be better than we were, you will have more of everything if you just work hard in school, get a degree, and work for a good corporation your entire life. And they not only programmed their kids and their kids' kids with that message, but built what is over half the country in that image. Europe and the rest of the world didn't have that. For their part, they have had the same frontiers they've always had, the same limited space. Canada does have the space, but not the same mythos.
 
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Was this directed at me? I am not bitching about the price of gasoline. I'm far more concerned about the general use of fossil fuels, and the apathy towards rebuilding a sustainable transportation infrastructure and the aversion many people have to alternative fuels.

I certainly don't see any of that apathy or aversion now. What I do see is an aversion to increasing costs for a declining middle class that already can't live within its means. The government was no help in that either by allowing predatory lending practices, unregulated credit in the form of loan-sharking, and even actively telling its citizens to go buy a house. Did Bush tell people to put their economic stimulus check in a bank? Hell no! He went out and told them to SPEND it!

There are far more reasons why everything is happening as it is, but you must see the entire picture to understand all the pieces that go to make a very complex puzzle; everything from government-encouraged spending and borrowing to culture, to political geography, to the forms of government and bases of taxation, to social movements that started over 200 years ago. We were fucked the moment Henry Ford started making affordable mass-produced cars because we were in the right place (a vast nearly uninhabited (by white people:frown1:) temperate-zone country with a huge rural population and a wealth of natural resources), with the right government (democratic pro-business, largely (by the standards these days) libertarian), the right technology (mass production, domestic oil supplies, internal combustion), the right economic position (following two devastating world wars and coasts on both the world's largest oceans), the right mindset (Protestant/God shows he loves you by making you rich/manifest destiny/free-market capitalism), and believed the right myths (the US is the greatest nation in the world and shall always be increasing in wealth and prosperity).

So it is not just a matter of raising gas taxes and driving Priuses or hopping a bus. Surely you've heard about the American love affair with the car. There's a reason for that and it's not just because of all the pretty chrome and the convenience of having one. There is almost nowhere in the country you can live without one and many people are shocked if you say you don't own one because when I said before that being without a car means death, I didn't just mean it as a metaphor. For many Americans it is their lifeline. Many Americans would rather give up their homes and live in their car than do the reverse because the car takes us to work, to get food, to get medical care, to see friends, to shop for everything we need. Without it you simply cannot live in the vast majority of places in this country. If you lose it, you're out of work, out of home, and soon out of food and other necessities. Americans love cars like they love their spouses, in sickness and in health, because we desperately need them in this country we have built for ourselves and ancestors have built before us.

I was not preaching--That's not my style. I was whining :)

I hope not. We have enough troubles in the world without being told we're fucking up yet again in our own home. Complain about what we do outside of our home, not within it. If we have a problem we'll take care of it or the problem will take care of us. It's not like we haven't figured out that a honking SUV and $4.25 a gallon gas don't go together very well.

Jason, you seem like a nice guy. Do you really think that this is such a non-issue, and that the only problem is the price of gas?

If I thought it was only the price of gas I wouldn't have become so upset. I guess you don't read my posts very often (given their length I can see why) because I talk about this quite a bit (that's not a dig, just an unbiased observation:smile:).
 
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deleted3782

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This is all very interesting to me. I've been watching the impact of urban planning and land development in the USA all my life...and I agree we have built ourselves into somewhat of a box.

If you live in a city you're in a transportation hub and can travel to many places. If you live outside of the city, however, you have no such choices without traveling into the city to go somewhere else not on the same line...

True, but rural people have almost always been more independence than urban folks. The rural folks used to enjoy canning, bulk food purchases, etc...and were more self sufficient. City folks relied on restaurants and shared food resources. Up until the 1960s or so, if you lived in the country, you were more isolated. Since then, highways and cheap gas have provided country folks city salaries and country living. In the future, that seems to be less sustainable.

Yes, change is needed, yes it's expensive. The reason it didn't start decades ago was because it wasn't economically feasible to do so. Building suburbs is cheaper than rebuilding cities.


Actually, the extension of roads and water/sewer lines into rural areas is quite expensive. Compared to an urban environment where as many as 20 people could be served by 20 feet of water/sewer lines (in the case of a multi-tenant residence), a rural pipelines could extend hundreds of feet with service to no individuals (no customers). Not to mention spread of fire stations, police force, parks and recreation space, shopping centers...and suburban sprawl gets very expensive, especially to governments. Even some suburban homebuilders in the states now are looking at more urban projects, which is heartening.

Building highways was seen as the way of the future because carrying people and freight was cheaper and faster than rail. All those wonderful just-in-time practices that make one business survive while the other dies rely on trucking and fossil fuels. When the baby boom began we had to put all those people somewhere and all that open rural space using a highway to get to the urban areas was the cheapest way to put a couple, their 2.5 kids, and their car in business. Time went on and houses got bigger, cars got bigger, and still people ran to the suburbs as soon as they had babies to avoid raising their kids in cities that were on the decline. Office and industrial parks could be built off existing highways for far less than building rail. Many of these places have people working in them who live from all different points in the surrounding area. There's no way you could manage a bus system for all or even most employees of these sorts of facilities.


The USA still has a fairly good industrial rail system. The trick is re-engineering it to return passenger service as well as freight. Many railways have been abandoned, especially here in North Carolina. I think we will regret doing that within my lifetime. Country folks used to catch a train from nearly any small town worth its weight in salt. Passenger train service was gutted int he 1960s by cheap fuel and cars.

Couple this with a declining standard of living, and it's disaster. There are people who commute to New York every day from nearly 100 miles away not because they want to live in the sticks but because they can't afford to live in a safe neighborhood on what they earn. Where I am, 50 miles outside New York, rents and housing prices are astronomical because most people here work in the city and make city salaries. The people who actually work in my county can't afford to live in the county and so they commute from even further north and there is just no way you could devise a workable mass transit system that collects 2-3 people from one town, 10 from another, and 2 from yet another when those towns are 15 or 20 miles apart on 2-lane roads. People would never get to where they work.


Yes, some cities like New York, London, and Shanghai are extraordinarily expensive. Some other cities such as Plymouth, Greensboro, and Dresden are more affordable. Thats what small towns are for, a smaller, cheaper version of the big expensive city. Small towns in the USA are getting wiped off the map. Maybe demand for affordable standards of living would help them prosper.

Here in the US, the most common desirable suburban lot is 3 acres. Towns in building booms increase lot size to offset uncontrolled growth and make those lots low-density single-family homes because the towns don't have the money to support services for high-density housing. Here in my town everyone I grew-up with has left because they were priced out of town by the astronomical property taxes and the taxes are astronomical because essential services have to be spread over such a geographically large area of low density homes. And the whole reason this happened to my town was because the suburbs closer to the city were gaining so much in value that people there were priced out. It's a domino effect and it's occurring because, as a nation, we're getting poorer, not richer, and the gulf between rich and poor is widening.

I think this domino effect is around big cities like New York. Here where I live, land values have remained stagnant for the past 15 years. Its quite affordable to live in a grand 1920-era house that elsewhere would cost a fortune. Yes San Francisco, Seattle, Chicago, and New York are expensive, but thats certainly not the case all over.

American cities will have to reorganize themselves. They will have to make better use of land, as distance is becoming a commodity again (as it was in the days before cars). Some of the most sought after places will not be furthest from the city-center, but closest (as in New York and London). Only the very rich will be able to commute in daily from their country house by car (as it was in the 1920s). The rest of us will live in a smaller apartment building just as folks did in the USA back in the early twentieth century, and just as families do in Europe today. We will use trolleys. buses, and bikes to get to work and back. Those services were available in most American cities before the 1950s, and were deliberately dismantled by General Motors to encourage the sale of more cars.

Interestingly, this reorganization of cities will involve some pain...as traditional planned neighborhoods will be converted into denser urban neighborhoods. We are already seeing some push back on this here in Greensboro with conservation districts being established by neighborhoods who wish to keep multi-family development out of their communities. It will be quite interesting to see how the rising energy prices will impact the shape of American cities in the future.

Ok, this urban planning geek is done. :rolleyes: