death is the end?

[B_ScaredLittleBoy]

In the animal kingdom, 90% of males die virgins.

And it's not for lack of trying. The basic instinct of all living things is to pass on their genes. If people don't want to then that's probably down to social conditioning and perhaps a feeling they aren't "good enough" to have children.

I'd say a vast majority of humans want to procreate, evidenced by the population density.

I think "biological determinism" is a sign of acceptance and not fear. Choosing to believe in an afterlife is the surest sign of fear: you are afraid of the finality of death.

All through history religion has been the greatest form of control. The poor were drawn to religion (mainly Christianity) because their lives were so shit they found the idea of Heaven and a better life hereafter very appealing.

Obviously that thinking still persists today. Not necessarily the quality of life since that has improved. But a lot of people are afraid of death. So they turn to religion.

If there have been hundreds of religions and likely millions of gods, why do you think one religion and one god would suddenly be "real"? Wishful thinking.

Wishing something does not make it so. The evidence, even of sheer probability, points towards God and the associated idea of Heaven being just another misguided and ancient explanation of the world. The Egyptians got it wrong, so did the Greeks, the Romans and every other civilisation.

Maybe in another thousand years as many people as believe in Greek mythology will believe in the Christian mythology.

 

[Axcess]

In the animal kingdom, 90% of males die virgins.

And it's not for lack of trying. The basic instinct of all living things is to pass on their genes. If people don't want to then that's probably down to social conditioning and perhaps a feeling they aren't "good enough" to have children.

I'd say a vast majority of humans want to procreate, evidenced by the population density.

I think "biological determinism" is a sign of acceptance and not fear. Choosing to believe in an afterlife is the surest sign of fear: you are afraid of the finality of death.

All through history religion has been the greatest form of control. The poor were drawn to religion (mainly Christianity) because their lives were so shit they found the idea of Heaven and a better life hereafter very appealing.

Obviously that thinking still persists today. Not necessarily the quality of life since that has improved. But a lot of people are afraid of death. So they turn to religion.

If there have been hundreds of religions and likely millions of gods, why do you think one religion and one god would suddenly be "real"? Wishful thinking.

Wishing something does not make it so. The evidence, even of sheer probability, points towards God and the associated idea of Heaven being just another misguided and ancient explanation of the world. The Egyptians got it wrong, so did the Greeks, the Romans and every other civilisation.

Maybe in another thousand years as many people as believe in Greek mythology will believe in the Christian mythology.

I agree 100% with that. Except the first part of your post about human reproduction . In reality not all people really want to have childern millions of kids in the world are simply accidents .

 

[ManlyBanisters]

I think "biological determinism" is a sign of acceptance and not fear. Choosing to believe in an afterlife is the surest sign of fear: you are afraid of the finality of death.

Absolutely 100% false. In my case anyway.

And I didn't say that I thought atheists were scared.

If there is nothing more and when I die there is no continuation, conscious or otherwise, that's fine with me - there's quite literally nothing to be scared of. I believe in God not because I need an afterlife but because I find the universe far too marvelous a place not to see God in it. An afterlife can be extrapolated from the existence of God - but that has very little to do with why I believe.

You don't see it that way. There's room for that view too. You're not a bad person for thinking that way, I'm not a bad person for thinking this way. Neither of us is better than the other.

 

[Axcess]

Absolutely 100% false. In my case anyway.

And I didn't say that I thought atheists were scared.

If there is nothing more and when I die there is no continuation, conscious or otherwise, that's fine with me - there's quite literally nothing to be scared of. I believe in God not because I need an afterlife but because I find the universe far too marvelous a place not to see God in it. An afterlife can be extrapolated from the existence of God - but that has very little to do with why I believe.

You don't see it that way. There's room for that view too. You're not a bad person for thinking that way, I'm not a bad person for thinking this way. Neither of us is better than the other.

The universe in a way is marvelous but is too imperfect . Why perfect creator god would created a world so imperfect ? but that's a topic for another thread .

 

[invisibleman]

The universe in a way is marvelous but is too imperfect . Why perfect creator god would created a world so imperfect? but that's a topic for another thread .

There is perfection in imperfection.

 

[B_ScaredLittleBoy]

I think you live in a scarey place of hopeless, biological determinism. I don't think that makes you stupid, but it is a place I choose not to inhabit myself.

Just for reference.

You can have hope without having to place that "hope" in a supernatural being.
And I think a hope based in reality has merits that hope based on a character in a book does not.

Mon opinion.

 

[Axcess]

There is perfection in imperfection.

Can you explain to me this paradox ?

 

[Axcess]

Just for reference.

You can have hope without having to place that "hope" in a supernatural being.
And I think a hope based in reality has merits that hope based on a character in a book does not.

Mon opinion.

How many in percentage of human males die virgins? I suspect that the number is higher than most of us think.

 

[unabear09]

Absolutely 100% false. In my case anyway.

And I didn't say that I thought atheists were scared.

If there is nothing more and when I die there is no continuation, conscious or otherwise, that's fine with me - there's quite literally nothing to be scared of. I believe in God not because I need an afterlife but because I find the universe far too marvelous a place not to see God in it. An afterlife can be extrapolated from the existence of God - but that has very little to do with why I believe.

You don't see it that way. There's room for that view too. You're not a bad person for thinking that way, I'm not a bad person for thinking this way. Neither of us is better than the other.

Amen MB! I just can't look at our world, our galaxy, our universe, and not see God. I think there has to be some devine plan, or devine inspiration for everything out there. How can a person look at the beauty on this planet, and the many many mind blowing phenominas (sp?) that exist in the heavens and not see an ultimate creator. I love science, and believe that science has the answers for the majority of the things that happen in our world/universe, but people remember science is a product of man. It takes scientists interpreting what they see. Science isn't just this great anomoly that dictates everything. Not everything can be answered by science, or else we'd have a cure to every disease on the planet, there would be a cure to world hunger, and so on. Science is not always the answer. Some things you just have to know, or feel, or sense. This is faith.

 

[B_ScaredLittleBoy]

How many in percentage of human males die virgins? I suspect that the number is higher than most of us think.

4 % of the Adult Americans Die Virgin! - Sex and drug consumption amongst Americans - Softpedia

4% of American adults apparently.

Sex is more readily available in a human society. Perhaps because women are less picky or that the alpha males with best genes just aren't available.

I know I'm fully booked pretty much all the time :tongue: hehe.

 

[Axcess]

4 % of the Adult Americans Die Virgin! - Sex and drug consumption amongst Americans - Softpedia

4% of American adults apparently.

Sex is more readily available in a human society. Perhaps because women are less picky or that the alpha males with best genes just aren't available.

I know I'm fully booked pretty much all the time :tongue: hehe.

If you take in to account that most males lie about having sex the real number could be higher than that.

 

[B_ScaredLittleBoy]

Not really if you think that for someone to die a virgin, they have to have lived about 70 years on average so the likelihood is they'd have sex at least once in that time be it a drunken one night stand or whatever.

4% is quite high when you consider how available sex is. If you've got even a little bit of cash.

Anyway back to the thread:

Science is another word for rational thinking. Belief in a God is close to irrational thinking. You put your faith in something you read in a book. The written word is not infallible. Or do you believe everything you read in the newspaper too?

At least with science, it is based on facts or substantiated theories and generally involves stringent testing. The whole premise of religion is that you don't question.

And you see where it gets you - you can't even imagine a world without a God?

History tells us there have been many religions and versions of the afterlife which is probably the most common component to every religion. We know that the Greek, Egyptian, Prehistoric, Roman creation stories are just that: stories. No one believes in them. God is a fictional character too. You just don't know it yet.

I don't know it either. But the evidence of history - which has no bias - gives a very strong indication that God is about as real as Prometheus.

 

[Axcess]

Not really if you think that for someone to die a virgin, they have to have lived about 70 years on average so the likelihood is they'd have sex at least once in that time be it a drunken one night stand or whatever.

4% is quite high when you consider how available sex is. If you've got even a little bit of cash.

Anyway back to the thread:

Science is another word for rational thinking. Belief in a God is close to irrational thinking. You put your faith in something you read in a book. The written word is not infallible. Or do you believe everything you read in the newspaper too?

At least with science, it is based on facts or substantiated theories and generally involves stringent testing. The whole premise of religion is that you don't question.

And you see where it gets you - you can't even imagine a world without a God?

History tells us there have been many religions and versions of the afterlife which is probably the most common component to every religion. We know that the Greek, Egyptian, Prehistoric, Roman creation stories are just that: stories. No one believes in them. God is a fictional character too. You just don't know it yet.

I don't know it either. But the evidence of history - which has no bias - gives a very strong indication that God is about as real as Prometheus.

That's right .

 

[breeze]

Delusional nonsense.

When one of you folks can pony up actual PROOF of a miracle... then maybe you won't look like such imbecilic patsies, mumbling your magical spells in hopes of an eternal life that never will occur.

The state you were in Before you were born is the exact same state you return to after you die.


Stop pinning your hopes on a fantasy of forever and recognize you only have THIS life to make the world a better place.

You want to see heaven?

MAKE IT HAPPEN HERE

" There will alway be a Judas "
The Blessed Virgin Mary
Medjugore , Yugoslavia
It takes a lot of effort to type these posts repeatly. But if you want proof and i have the time this is going to be a very long ride. If i make the effect it will be in parts. My post was not about us and what we believe or don't believe. It was about the visionaries and whether or not there is any evidence to support their claim that they are in the presence of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Are they delirious or delusional ? You may believe that but i doubt many others do. Because " electroencephalographic {EEG} tests confirm that the alleged visionaries brain functioning is normal and healthy. EEG tests rule out the possiblity of epllepsy or psychotic hallucinations. The alleged visionaries are not asleep or dreaming either. Hysterical neurotic reaction or pathological ecstasy is also ruled out by EEC testing ". The full context will follow.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

There is no evidence to support their claim..

Trust me, it would have been in the papers.

There is NO evidence that Mary was a virgin...

And the mass delusions of "believers" in Yugoslavia ( one of the most backward states..) is NOT evidence.
Really.

Saying shit is not evidence.
An old musty book compiled by men who made their living off of people's belief is also not evidence.


If Miraculous cures are real... then how come the only affliction "cured" are afflictions which human beings have demonstrated an ability to spontaneously recover from?

No one has ever had a missing limb miraculously restored.


As to EEG tests.... so what? I don't care what you are imagining... if you see it and others don't ITS A DELUSION.

No EEG test can determine if you are hallucinating or not.
They can not even effectively prove if you are lying or not.


Tales of personal experience are not evidence...

And double blind studies reveal that prayer has no effect at all... that faith has no effect at all, on respoinse to treatment or recovery from illness.


Its clear you WANT to believe....
Its clear you will accept as "proof" any malarky you hear that re-inforces what you have already decided is true.

But all you have to do is show ONE real and repeatable miraculous effect...
ONE person who CAN cure disease...

One person, under scientific observation, who is cured of an affliction that people simply never recover from...


Don't tell me stories about EEGs when you clearly have no idea what EEG's record, and what EEGs can and can not reveal.









Show me a repeatable, testable effect.

 

[breeze]

There is no evidence to support their claim..

Trust me, it would have been in the papers.

There is NO evidence that Mary was a virgin...

And the mass delusions of "believers" in Yugoslavia ( one of the most backward states..) is NOT evidence.
Really.

Saying shit is not evidence.
An old musty book compiled by men who made their living off of people's belief is also not evidence.


If Miraculous cures are real... then how come the only affliction "cured" are afflictions which human beings have demonstrated an ability to spontaneously recover from?

No one has ever had a missing limb miraculously restored.


As to EEG tests.... so what? I don't care what you are imagining... if you see it and others don't ITS A DELUSION.

No EEG test can determine if you are hallucinating or not.
They can not even effectively prove if you are lying or not.


Tales of personal experience are not evidence...

And double blind studies reveal that prayer has no effect at all... that faith has no effect at all, on respoinse to treatment or recovery from illness.


Its clear you WANT to believe....
Its clear you will accept as "proof" any malarky you hear that re-inforces what you have already decided is true.

But all you have to do is show ONE real and repeatable miraculous effect...
ONE person who CAN cure disease...

One person, under scientific observation, who is cured of an affliction that people simply never recover from...


Don't tell me stories about EEGs when you clearly have no idea what EEG's record, and what EEGs can and can not reveal.









Show me a repeatable, testable effect.

What are you talking about ? Of course i don't anything about EEGS. In case you didn't notice that was a quote from a panel of scientific and medical french experts some of whom are probably EEG experts. Their results and conclusions were supported by 2 other commissions of international experts.
I don't know if the people of yugoslavia believed or didn't believe in the apparitions. I don't care. I'm refering to the scientific investigations by three international commissions.
The Blessed Virgin Mary has been appearing daily for 25 years. The results have been repeated 25,000 times or at least every time the visionaries have been tested.
The apparitions and results have been reported in various medias but i don't keep track. I remember seeing them mentioned on unsolved mysteries , an abc news special by Elizabeth Vargas on miracles and in at least one newspaper. The apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary in fatima were covered worldwide.
Are you a physician or scientist ? It would make for an a more interesting thread if you are ?

 

[breeze]

Here is the complete text { although it may have to be in 2 parts }.
Here's what you have to keep in mind.
The experts are internationally renown. There have been 2 follow-up studies.
Some/all of the reactions are scientifically/medically impossible.
Some/all of the reactions have NEVER been seen before.
The Blessed Virgin Mary has been appearing and continues to appear in medjugorje what was then yugoslavia for the past 25 years. The number of appearances is approaching 10,000 { not 25,000 as i mentioned before }. Her daily appearances has allowed for repeated testing of the visionaries.
The reactions happen simultaneous and daily to 6 visionaries. That's the synchronization involved.
"Discernment and Scientific Study of Visionaries in Medjugorje from the Medjugorje Times"
" It is extremely noteworthy that the reported apparitions in medjugorje are the first apparitions in history to be throughtly investigated by science. Professor henri joyeaux { an Atheist } headed a team from the University of Montpellier France. Dr. Frigerio and colleagues from Italy did further investigations { another commission was later formed }. The regularity of the apparitions has made for consistent and extremely reliable findings.

Five alleged visionaries tested were found to simultaneously look at precisely the same spot{even though no reference point was visible} within 1/5 of one second of each other when the Blessed Virgin Mary allegedly appears. Such sychronization can ONLY be explained by some external object holding their gaze-but one which those around them could not see.

During the same 1/5 of one second, there are simultaneous kneelings and cessation of eye movements. There is no eye movement during the entire apparition { 3 to 45 minutes }. There is also the simultaneous raising of their heads and gazing upwards while remaining fixated on a spot moving upwards when the apparition ends.

Two of the alleged visionaries do not blink at all during the apparition. The eyeball normally dries when there is no regular blinking{15-20 times a minute}to moisten the cornea , but lacrimal secretion does not seem necesary during the apparition. The other alleged visionaries blink about half the normal rate. None of them blinks in response to touching the eye during the apparition{cornea sensitivity to varying pressures is completely absent}ALTHOUGH they blink NORMALLY at other times.

There is no reaction to pain during the apparition { don't forget their internal reactions are being measured - they cannot be faked }. When touched by an algometer , which causes a cutaneous lesion or skin burn , there was a complete absence of sensitivity. The alleged visionaries react normally to pain at other times.

The interesting results of a hearing test before and during an apparition showed normal hearing, but during the apparition , an imput of ninety decibels { equivalent to a loud explosion } showed NO reaction. Auditory evoked potential measurement{electrical activity of the ear} indicates normal ear activity with no transmission to the inner ear during the apparition. It is a measureable inhibition of hearing that is INVOLUNTARY and inexplicable physiologically.

End of part I { part II may follow }

 

[breeze]

Part II {see above } regarding the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Medjugorje
The scientifically/medically impossible.
What has NEVER been seen before.

" EEG tests confirm that the alleged visionaries brain functioning is normal and healthy. EEG tests rule out the possibility of epilepsy or psychotic hallunications. The alleged visionaries are not asleep or dreaming either. Hysterical neurotic reaction or pathological ecstasy is also ruled out by EEG testing.

What EEG testing showed was that before the apparition , the brain waves are predominantly beta rhythm interpersed by alpha { normal conscious attentiveness }. At the start of the apparition , the beta rhythm remains for a short time and then is replaced by an almost uninterrupted alpha rhythm. Alpha rhythm is most often observed during relaxation , in a state of expectaion , or engaged in mediation. It also usually requires practice to achieve such a diffuse response. Because most of the brain is devoted to visual processing , it is noteworthy that the alpha rhythm over the entire cranium was exhibited while the alleged visionaries had their eyes wide open throughout the apparition. Closed eyes would have been expected with alpha rhythm because visual stimulation usually produces interference with alpha rhythm.

To test visual stimulation further , a 1000 watt light bulb was placed in front of the eyes of the alleged visionaries during the apparition. Not only is a 1000 watt light bulb unusually painful to the eye but also it would nomally cause increased blinking and influence alpha rhythm. There was no blinking movement of the eyelids to the 1000 watt stimlus. There was an interesting pupillary response. The pupil contracted as one would expect to bright light but there was no change in alpha rhythm to the 1000 watt light. This is scientifically inexplicable and NEVER SEEN BEFORE. For the pupil to response , the brain MUST register the light but NO brain wave change took place. Additionally, such intense stimulation normally causes a significant cortical response but none occurred during the apparition period.

During the apparition period ANOTHER scientifically inexplicable event took place. The alleged visionaries voices STOP during the time they are having the vision. Even though all the muscles involved in speech continue { all mouth , jaw and throat muscles } the larynx {VOICE BOX} SHUTS OFF. THIS IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. The laryngeal function cannot be physically isolated from the rest of the muscles of speech. The larynx ceases to emit sound during the apparition - except for one expection. In unison , during the apparition the alleged visionaries will be heard simultaneously praying " Who art in heaven , hallowed be Thy name }. When asked , they report Mary is leading them in the Lord's Prayer. "