death is the end?

[AlteredEgo]

It looks to me like everyone viewing this thread is participating in the discussion, and has voted (or specifically said they wouldn't. The view counter does not measure in only unique visits, but registers every single visit. It's been a nice lively thread, no?

 

[Equus14]

that's your belief, though. there's no evidence, so you don't believe in it. fine, all well and good, but it's still just YOUR belief with no more evidence to disprove it than i have to prove it. the only difference being, i'm not asking you to disprove it. i'm fine if you don't want to believe in an afterlife or eternal soul. that's your affair. but declaring it like it's some kind of empirical fact backed by mounds of evidence and data is and thus the debate should be ended is ridiculous, arrogant and intellectually irresponsible.

putting all that aside for a second, though...why does it matter to you? you talk about belief in the afterlife, in ANY afterlife, in anything beyond meat and decay and oblivion as though it were dangerous with vast negative consequences. but what are they? if i believe in Heaven or reincarnation or any number of possibilities beyond "we die and we're gone and it's over," where's the harm? where's the foul?

the most upsetting thing is that you're not only telling people what they should and shouldn't believe (why atheists decided to start borrowing strategies from the fundamentalist playbook, i have no idea), but also telling them on what criteria they should believe anything: yours. you demand absolute empirical proof, or near enough to it, before you believe anything. that's your process, that's how your mind works. it's not how everyone else thinks or feels, though. i'm all for logic and rationality, but i also belief in faith and instinct and imagination. as long as you're not acting on your beliefs, be they theist, spiritualist, atheist or agnostic, in such a way that is harmful to others or the world around you...why not just let it be? the world would be a dreadfully boring place if we all believed the same things and thought the same way.

if you're right, then we're all just mulch anyway. i feel and believe that there's something more to us and to all of this than that. i don't KNOW what it is, but i believe that it's there.

That's typical of people such as yourself. You see a lack of belief in something as in of itself 'a belief'. That is incorrect. You probably see a lack of belief in god as a belief as well. You are incorrect about that. The absince of belief doesn't equate a belief.

You are blind to what collective beliefs such as yours does to the world around you. Believing that the there is something beyond this life is what makes people devalue THIS ONE. That devaluation effects everyone who lives here, including myself. I'm not the only one who sees that, and there are many people who agree with me. Overall yours is a dangerous belief. It's the crux of what convinces people to fly planes into buildings and not fund stem cell research. Your belief is the crux of the madness that is religion which convinces people that their gay and lesbian children are an abomination to their non-existent god, and so on and so on.

If people woke up to the fact that there is no soul and no afterlife then most religions would die the horrible evil death they so richly deserve.

 

[B_lillothomas9]

It looks to me like everyone viewing this thread is participating in the discussion, and has voted (or specifically said they wouldn't. The view counter does not measure in only unique visits, but registers every single visit. It's been a nice lively thread, no?

Thanks for your reply . i say that because that thread have almost 500 views but only about 39 votes .

 

[Equus14]

This discussion presumably is about what each one of us believes, I do not think it is a major theological dispute! Additionally, it is not just about what you believe! How dare you be so presumptuous as to offer corrections to another person's belief and justify it by saying your word is the only truth and to believe otherwise is insanity? Your word is merely your opinion. As one individual, you have no monopoly on the truth...to pretend that you have the one truth is arrogant at best and ignorant at worst! There is no one so omniscient that they can argue for the right or wrong of another person's expressed opinion!

I don't expect a delusional person such as yourself to agree with reality. No evidence means no reason to believe. That isn't my belief it is how things work here in this world and people such as yourself are too willing to believe nonsense to simply stick with reality.

 

[Equus14]

Actually if we are honest about it the truth is that we dont know.
Thas why iam agnostic i think that is irresponsible and dishonest to claim something without a definitive proof.

Then we should be open to the idea that there are invisible gnomes in people's gardens. That's basically what you're saying.

 

[B_8 incher]

That's typical of people such as yourself. You see a lack of belief in something as in of itself 'a belief'. That is incorrect. You probably see a lack of belief in god as a belief as well. You are incorrect about that. The absince of belief doesn't equate a belief.

You are blind to what collective beliefs such as yours does to the world around you. Believing that the there is something beyond this life is what makes people devalue THIS ONE. That devaluation effects everyone who lives here, including myself. I'm not the only one who sees that, and there are many people who agree with me. Overall yours is a dangerous belief. It's the crux of what convinces people to fly planes into buildings and not fund stem cell research. Your belief is the crux of the madness that is religion which convinces people that their gay and lesbian children are an abomination to their non-existent god, and so on and so on.

If people woke up to the fact that there is no soul and no afterlife then most religions would die the horrible evil death they so richly deserve.

i woulnt say that death is the end without a definitive prove but you got a point religions would fall apart if someday someone proves without doubt that dead is the end.

 

[wannabigman]

i say we do a study and get 5 people to kill themselves and report back what they find.

 

[D_Fluoridia Bidet]

Don't we all just want to die then come back just to tell people what's on the other side of that? If we could then I am sure we would have this life changing experience. ^_^

 

[Equus14]

I think that the issue is not that easy as you see it. because you dont believe in something that dont means it doesnt exist and you can also belief in things that doesnt exist of course . without absolute irrefutable evidence to back up a claim we cant say that our beliefs or hipothesis are the correct ones.

Till ANY valid evidence that says otherwise we have no reason to believe anything is true on faith alone. One can hypothesize that there are invisible gnomes in people's gardens but until we see any valid evidence that it is true why should anyone give such a nonsensical idea any credence? Culturally we have been programmed to pander to religion and that is blinding too many of us to how nonsensical it is, but it there are many of us, including myself who aren't falling for it.

 

[B_8 incher]

i say we do a study and get 5 people to kill themselves and report back what they find.

Well some could argue that those people that return from the " death"
are experimenting alucinations because lack of oxigen in the brain that is the hipothesis that people convinced that death is the end use to "refute" those near death experiences or " afterlive experiences"

 

[B_8 incher]

Till ANY valid evidence that says otherwise we have no reason to believe anything is true on faith alone. One can hypothesize that there are invisible gnomes in people's gardens but until we see any valid evidence that it is true why should anyone give such a nonsensical idea any credence? Culturally we have been programmed to pander to religion and that is blinding too many of us to how nonsensical it is, but it there are many of us, including myself who aren't falling for it.

iam not sayin that you should accept something with blindfaith that is my point! only to a have a open mind in a case that someone prove that people that think that death is the end are wrong with irrefutable evidence.

 

[D_golden parachute]

if you can know it or prove it for certain, then there's little point in debating it. most debates and arguments center around areas of belief, opinion, theory and/or conjecture, wherein rhetoric and expression of those beliefs and opinions, in some instances with evidence (though rarely irrefutable evidence) to back it up, are the only means to make your case.

so i'd say almost the opposite from you. it's far more futile to debate things that can be absolutely known and proven. because whoever's arguing against them is at an extreme disadvantage since at any time the "pro" side can just whip out an encyclopedia. :biggrin1: debate of subjective unknowns, like opinions and beliefs, are far more fruitful because they exhibit not only WHAT you know but HOW and WHY you think and believe.

But there is nothing to argue with other that pure opinion

and that turns into an 'I'm right!' 'No, I'm right!' kind of debate

 

[B_lillothomas9]

What do you guys think? is free will a illusion or is real ? that is the topic of my good friend 8 incher . Check out his thread

 

[B_lillothomas9]

so death is the end have the lead right now

 

[the_reverend]

People seeing this thread. Please even if you dont post a comment, please vote !

The poll can reflect better the opinions of the members if more people vote !!

again, there's no answer on the poll that really reflects what i believe, so i have chosen to abstain...courteously. :wink:

That's typical of people such as yourself. You see a lack of belief in something as in of itself 'a belief'. That is incorrect. You probably see a lack of belief in god as a belief as well. You are incorrect about that. The absince of belief doesn't equate a belief.

oh, well if you say it, then it must be true. this is the problem with people such as yourself...and by those people, i mean YOU because i don't feel the need to paint everyone with as wide and general a brush as possible to make them fit into my neat and rigid little prejudiced categories. you don't believe God exists or that there is an afterlife. THAT IS A BELIEF! you have no proof, you have no evidence, you have no hard data to prove it, yet you continue to purport your beliefs and opinions as if they were absolute empirical facts. they're not. they are what they are...beliefs. opinions. yours, not necessarily anyone else's. and no amount of repeating them over and over or saying "they're not beliefs" changes that.

You are blind to what collective beliefs such as yours does to the world around you. Believing that the there is something beyond this life is what makes people devalue THIS ONE. That devaluation effects everyone who lives here, including myself. I'm not the only one who sees that, and there are many people who agree with me. Overall yours is a dangerous belief. It's the crux of what convinces people to fly planes into buildings and not fund stem cell research. Your belief is the crux of the madness that is religion which convinces people that their gay and lesbian children are an abomination to their non-existent god, and so on and so on.

i'm not blind to anything, because it is not a belief in God or an afterlife that causes bigotry. it is used as an excuse for bigotry, certainly, for hatred and fear, for violence and terror. but so are politics, economics, philosophy, geography, sex. we will always find a reason to excuse our xenophobia. but belief in God has also created incredible works of charity, compassion, kindness. of helping, protecting and fighting for those in need. of poetry, art, culture, architecture, mathematics, science. it is the very fact that i believe in God that leads me to value this life and this world because they are precious gifts that He has bestowed upon us and it is utterly irresponsible and reprehensible for us to despoil them in any way. I can't speak for any faith other than my own, but Christ taught us to build the Kingdom of Heaven right here on Earth through our faith, hope and love, through loving our neighbors as well as our enemies.

and for the record...regardless of what you and the "many people" who agree with you may BELIEVE about us, the vast majority of people who believe in God have never flown an airplane into a building. i for one support stem cell research and i'm a passionate and long time defender of gay rights, even before my sister or any of my friends came out of the closet. so before you start trying to tell me what I believe or what my beliefs are "responsible" for, why not actually try learning what I and others believe instead of condemning us based on your false and naive stereotypes?

If people woke up to the fact that there is no soul and no afterlife then most religions would die the horrible evil death they so richly deserve.

one, it's not a fact, it's your belief. i know that stings, but the sooner you deal with your delusions the better off you'll be. and two, if you honestly believe that all of these "evils" you attribute to religion would just up and vanish if religion disappeared, then i've got a lovely little two bedroom beach house in Arizona with an incredible view of the Pacific I'd love to show you some time.

But there is nothing to argue with other that pure opinion

and that turns into an 'I'm right!' 'No, I'm right!' kind of debate

well, if you have any skill at debate and rhetoric, it will hopefully have a bit more depth than that. but what you're saying is basically that opinions aren't worth debating. which is kind of silly since, even if we have data and facts that reenforce our opinions, the opinions themselves are all we actually have to argue.

now, if you don't want to engage in such an argument, that's your choice. but there's plenty of us who see it as a valid and worthwhile exercise.

 

[Equus14]

you don't believe God exists or that there is an afterlife. THAT IS A BELIEF! you have no proof, you have no evidence, you have no hard data to prove it, yet you continue to purport your beliefs and opinions as if they were absolute empirical facts. they're not. they are what they are...beliefs. opinions. yours, not necessarily anyone else's. and no amount of repeating them over and over or saying "they're not beliefs" changes that.

I have no belief in a god, or afterlife, or soul. That is the default position. I am without belief in those things. That is not a belief, it is a state of being. I have no belief in those things for the same reason that I do not have any belief that there are invisible gnomes in people's gardens. It's the same thing. Lack of belief. One cannot bring forth evidence that there are not invisible gnomes in people's gardens, and I would have to state what that evidence is if I said that I "believe they do not exist". The same goes for god, afterlife, and soul. I remain in the default position on those things also. Without belief. I don't have to prove that there is no soul. I have no stake in believing there is one, however I can insist that to believe it exists in the absince of evidence is irrational and wishful thinking, and that is precisely what I've been doing. Deal with it.

i'm not blind to anything, because it is not a belief in God or an afterlife that causes bigotry. it is used as an excuse for bigotry, certainly, for hatred and fear, for violence and terror. but so are politics, economics, philosophy, geography, sex. we will always find a reason to excuse our xenophobia. but belief in God has also created incredible works of charity, compassion, kindness. of helping, protecting and fighting for those in need. of poetry, art, culture, architecture, mathematics, science. it is the very fact that i believe in God that leads me to value this life and this world because they are precious gifts that He has bestowed upon us and it is utterly irresponsible and reprehensible for us to despoil them in any way. I can't speak for any faith other than my own, but Christ taught us to build the Kingdom of Heaven right here on Earth through our faith, hope and love, through loving our neighbors as well as our enemies.

People get from the Bible and the Koran what they bring to it. That is what makes them dangerous. If you bring love and compassion that's what you'll find. If you bring hate and fear that can be found there to and in abundance. There is a difference between religion and your examples of politics, economics, sex, philosophy, etc. The Believer of religion will feel that there are greater eternal implications for what they do and do not do. The instant you bring a god into it there becomes an even greater willingness to believe things for which there is no evidence and that as has been proven by religous people in the past to be the catalyist for great atrocities.

and for the record...regardless of what you and the "many people" who agree with you may BELIEVE about us, the vast majority of people who believe in God have never flown an airplane into a building. i for one support stem cell research and i'm a passionate and long time defender of gay rights, even before my sister or any of my friends came out of the closet. so before you start trying to tell me what I believe or what my beliefs are "responsible" for, why not actually try learning what I and others believe instead of condemning us based on your false and naive stereotypes?

Humanity creates both individually and collectively. Your individual choices may not have flown planes into buildings but you are encouraging the ideas that lead to planes being flown into buildings. You are not an island. Your example is encouraging the idea that there is a soul, a god, an afterlife. All with no real evidence. These beliefs may serve you as an individual but they do not serve us collectively. They are destroying us.

 

[B_tallbig]

in my opinion death is the end

 

[B_tallbig]

if reincarnation is real why we dont remember past lives?

IT DONT MAKE SENSE TOO ME EITHER TO EXIST ETERNALLY IN HEAVEN OR HELL

 

[breeze]

Hell and heaven don't make sense but neither does anything else. Anyway with the skeptics here maybe i can find another explanation for what happen below because i have never found one before that made sense. Briefly one of the most famous appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary was in fatima, portugal in 1917. There before a crowd estimated at 50,000 or more and over a radius of about 25 miles the Virgin Mary had the sun dance or spin wildly { known as the dancing sun }in the sky and at the same time change colors. At one point the sun approached the earth as though it was going to crash into the earth before resuming its natural position in the sky. The event was heavily covered by the world press and cameras were rolling. The prints within the valley weren't developable. There are however photos taken from a distance that showed the sun out of position. The portuguese newspaper O Dia which had mocked the event reported " Then as if it were shining though stained glass windows of a great cathedral , the light became a rare blue { the sun's rays } , spreading its rays upon the gigantic nave. Slowly the blue faded away and now the light seemed to be filtered through yellowed stained glass. Yellow spots were falling now upon the white kerchiefs and the dark poor skirts of course wool. They were spots which repeated themselves over the lowly holmoaks , the rocks and the hills. All the people were weeping and praying bareheaded , weighted down by the greatness of the miracle expected. These were moments , seconds , that seemed hours , they were so fully lived ." { there are photos of the crowd staring at the " alleged " miracle.} Oh did i tell you that allegely St.Joseph, Jesus Christ and God appeared at fatima and blessed the earth. I believe though that only the 3 children { one who became a nun } saw them though i might be wrong. But the point is what REASONABLE explanations are there for what happen at fatima. You can immediately rule out the idea that it was a mass hallucination. That is a fallacy. That is to say you can certainly have large numbers of people hallucinating but they are not going to all have the same exact hallucination. The only other explanation i can think is that the world press fabricated the event. They also fabricated world war I and world war II. That's not a reasonable explanation. What other reasonable explanations are there ? "On October 13 , 1931 the church solemnly declared that the manifestations of cova de iria { fatima } worthly of belief, therefore granting permission for public veneration of Our Lady of Fatima."

 

[Equus14]

Hell and heaven don't make sense but neither does anything else. Anyway with the skeptics here maybe i can find another explanation for what happen below because i have never found one before that made sense. Briefly one of the most famous appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary was in fatima, portugal in 1917. There before a crowd estimated at 50,000 or more and over a radius of about 25 miles the Virgin Mary had the sun dance or spin wildly { known as the dancing sun }in the sky and at the same time change colors. At one point the sun approached the earth as though it was going to crash into the earth before resuming its natural position in the sky. The event was heavily covered by the world press and cameras were rolling. The prints within the valley weren't developable. There are however photos taken from a distance that showed the sun out of position. The portuguese newspaper O Dia which had mocked the event reported " Then as if it were shining though stained glass windows of a great cathedral , the light became a rare blue { the sun's rays } , spreading its rays upon the gigantic nave. Slowly the blue faded away and now the light seemed to be filtered through yellowed stained glass. Yellow spots were falling now upon the white kerchiefs and the dark poor skirts of course wool. They were spots which repeated themselves over the lowly holmoaks , the rocks and the hills. All the people were weeping and praying bareheaded , weighted down by the greatness of the miracle expected. These were moments , seconds , that seemed hours , they were so fully lived ." { there are photos of the crowd staring at the " alleged " miracle.} Oh did i tell you that allegely St.Joseph, Jesus Christ and God appeared at fatima and blessed the earth. I believe though that only the 3 children { one who became a nun } saw them though i might be wrong. But the point is what REASONABLE explanations are there for what happen at fatima. You can immediately rule out the idea that it was a mass hallucination. That is a fallacy. That is to say you can certainly have large numbers of people hallucinating but they are not going to all have the same exact hallucination. The only other explanation i can think is that the world press fabricated the event. They also fabricated world war I and world war II. That's not a reasonable explanation. What other reasonable explanations are there ? "On October 13 , 1931 the church solemnly declared that the manifestations of cova de iria { fatima } worthly of belief, therefore granting permission for public veneration of Our Lady of Fatima."

It's more reasonable to believe that the entire thing was concocted by the Catholic Church to give people something to focus on to encourage their faith in Catholicism. Our Lady of Lourdes was made up. Bernadette's body remains intact not because of a miracle but more likely because the Catholic Church had her body secretly embalmed the same way that Vladimir Lenin's body was.