death is the end?

[B_tallbig]

That is possible but what i understand is that there were dozens if not hundreds of reporters at fatima and that they saw the "miracle" with their own eyes and simply reported what they themselves saw , not what others claimed happened. You would have to assume that all the reporters from all parts of the world meet and conspired to print the exact lie. Reporters who spoke different languages and had deadlines. How would anyone know who was a reporter and who wasn't at fatima spread over a large area ? How and where would have all the reporters meet ? Is the only explanation for fatima that others can arrive at is that the church or the newspapers lied ? What if they didn't ? A lot of things have to happen for that theory to be true. Is that the only alternative theory out there ?

I personally dont believe in any mary aparitions and any dogma of the chatholic church but i respect your believes and in any way i will not try to convince otherwise in your thinking

 

[B_tallbig]

equus14 i have a question is a topic from another thread but iam curious do you believe free will is real or is a illusion to you ?

 

[Equus14]

I don't know how you did it Equus , but you have just attributed many of my comments to The Reverend. I am not a reverend and do not even belong to a church group. My ideas and beliefs are purely mine and are not representative of any organization and I certainly am not a reverend! LOL
I am Donkeyboy9!:smile: I believe in live and let live and will be sporting enough to permit you your beliefs and disbeliefs, because I feel that individual beliefs are inviolable! I simply request that you not try through your pseudo philosophical mumbo jumbo to deny me of that same right.:wink:

I never once called you a reverend. I did not confuse you with anyone but yourself.

Deny you said this:
"I believe there is one God/creator with dominion over all of the people ever born and yet to be born in what we think of as our world. I believe there is a concept of righteousness and of evil and I believe the soul of the righteous will be rewarded with some form of afterlife: the afterlife could consist of a databank of thoughts to perpetuate the soul or it might take the Biblical form of Heaven and Hell.
Whether the soul is accompanied by a stream of consciousness or assumes a yet not understood form of continuum, I am not certain! I believe there is great probability that both matter and thought are stored in a great heavenly /galactic data bank to be recycled along with genetic material.
I doubt that the process of rebirth and regeneration is entirely on the conscious level, but I would not rule out that, through a process not now understood by us, snippets of memory of prior existences can arise during a subsequent existence!
In this context, I believe death is a gateway to a great storage and recycling area and that life in some form is eternal!"


I have repeatedly said that my comments are toward religious/spiritualist people. You may not be religious but you're most certainly spiritualist. It is not I who are confused. It appears to be you. I use to believe in 'live and let live', but that has proven itself to be a position that allows others to run over you before you realize it while you do nothing.

So I have embraced a stance of Necessary Intolerence.
Elsewhere I am the one who stated this:

"There was a time for placation and pandering but that time is over. We are being led by the delusional who speak untrue platitudes about the virtues of religious/spiritual faith as we collectively continue to slip farther from reality who's foundation is faith's antithesis; facts and evidence which can only be seen in the light of logic, reason, and rationality. Those of us who objectively see, love our lives, and hold hope for the futures of our descendants must find a way to stand with as much unity as independent thought can muster and show a necessary intolerance for those beliefs that continue to erode our ability to live on this planet in any modicum of peace. Enough is enough."

 

[Equus14]

equus14 i have a question is a topic from another thread but iam curious do you believe free will is real or is a illusion to you ?

That would depend upon several factors, but one thing I am certain of. The only chance that free will has of existing is if there is no god. Apart from that I think there is not enough evidence to know for sure. Time may be immutable, but we do not know for certain since we cannot travel through time to find out, and that fact alone could mean that the past is immutable but the future isn't since we are creating the future in the 'now'. Who knows. But one things is certain, it doesn't matter if free will exists or not in order to live a happy and fullfilled life. If it doesn't exist then it sure 'appears' as if it does and that's all that matters in the here and now. So personally for me it's not important and only academic at this point.

 

[B_tallbig]

That would depend upon several factors, but one thing I am certain of. The only chance that free will has of existing is if there is no god. Apart from that I think there is not enough evidence to know for sure. Time may be immutable, but we do not know for certain since we cannot travel through time to find out, and that fact alone could mean that the past is immutable but the future isn't since we are creating the future in the 'now'. Who knows. But one things is certain, it doesn't matter if free will exists or not in order to live a happy and fullfilled life. If it doesn't exist then it sure 'appears' as if it does and that's all that matters in the here and now. So personally for me it's not important and only academic at this point.

i asked because i dont think that total free will exists and even less if what we are, our emotions , toughts,. memories are produced only by the organ of the brain. Which by the way is what iam incline to think

 

[Equus14]

i asked because i dont think that total free will exists and even less if what we are, our emotions , toughts,. memories are produced only by the organ of the brain. Which by the way is what iam incline to think

I might agree with that depending upon what you mean by 'total free will'. If you mean that we remain subject to the laws of the universe in spite of what our will may desire for ourselves then I must entirely agree. That would preclude having 'total' free will. If you are not meaning that then I'm not certain I get what you're saying.

To me though 'free will' means the ability to make choices in a given circumstance. It's been my observation that individual personal experience is created in 2 basic ways. Cause and Effect, and Random Chance. Most of the time it's a combination of both in varrying degrees. The Cause and Effect portion though is quite often a matter of our own choices and whether they are conscious or unconscious choices doesn't make any difference, and in spite of what a few people believe, to make no choice in a given matter is still choosing (my sister is guilty of doing that WAY too much then always complains later about the outcome.)

 

[B_tallbig]

I might agree with that depending upon what you mean by 'total free will'. If you mean that we remain subject to the laws of the universe in spite of what our will may desire for ourselves then I must entirely agree. That would preclude having 'total' free will. If you are not meaning that then I'm not certain I get what you're saying.

To me though 'free will' means the ability to make choices in a given circumstance. It's been my observation that individual personal experience is created in 2 basic ways. Cause and Effect, and Random Chance. Most of the time it's a combination of both in varrying degrees. The Cause and Effect portion though is quite often a matter of our own choices and whether they are conscious or unconscious choices doesn't make any difference, and in spite of what a few people believe, to make no choice in a given matter is still choosing (my sister is guilty of doing that WAY too much then always complains later about the outcome.)

the general definition of free will is that we shape our lives according to our choices and action. i dont believe in that . nobody has total control of their lives and the choices we make or not make are influenced by some factors or variables. nobody make choices completely free

 

[basque9]

I never once called you a reverend. I did not confuse you with anyone but yourself.

Deny you said this:
"I believe there is one God/creator with dominion over all of the people ever born and yet to be born in what we think of as our world. I believe there is a concept of righteousness and of evil and I believe the soul of the righteous will be rewarded with some form of afterlife: the afterlife could consist of a databank of thoughts to perpetuate the soul or it might take the Biblical form of Heaven and Hell.
Whether the soul is accompanied by a stream of consciousness or assumes a yet not understood form of continuum, I am not certain! I believe there is great probability that both matter and thought are stored in a great heavenly /galactic data bank to be recycled along with genetic material.
I doubt that the process of rebirth and regeneration is entirely on the conscious level, but I would not rule out that, through a process not now understood by us, snippets of memory of prior existences can arise during a subsequent existence!
In this context, I believe death is a gateway to a great storage and recycling area and that life in some form is eternal!"


I have repeatedly said that my comments are toward religious/spiritualist people. You may not be religious but you're most certainly spiritualist. It is not I who are confused. It appears to be you. I use to believe in 'live and let live', but that has proven itself to be a position that allows others to run over you before you realize it while you do nothing.

So I have embraced a stance of Necessary Intolerence.
Elsewhere I am the one who stated this:

"There was a time for placation and pandering but that time is over. We are being led by the delusional who speak untrue platitudes about the virtues of religious/spiritual faith as we collectively continue to slip farther from reality who's foundation is faith's antithesis; facts and evidence which can only be seen in the light of logic, reason, and rationality. Those of us who objectively see, love our lives, and hold hope for the futures of our descendants must find a way to stand with as much unity as independent thought can muster and show a necessary intolerance for those beliefs that continue to erode our ability to live on this planet in any modicum of peace. Enough is enough."

You are entirely mistaken when you say you did not misquote my comments and that you did not attribute a number of my comments to The Reverend!
Merely scrollback to my posting numbered 82. In your posting numbered 89, you quoted ver batim from a number of my remarks and then attributed them to The Reverend and then responded to them as if I were a piously religious person...remarks completely off the mark!
I do not ever deny remarks that I have posted, yes , I have a spiritual dimension to my persona. That does not permit you to be insulting or disrespectful of that aspect ( flaw is the way you must visualize it) of my being! So, you are a nonbeliever...so be it..it is not all that significant in the totality of the universal or of the unknown! Peace!:smile:

 

[Sixofspades]

I'm not religious, but I can't help but feel the world is too special and that we humans are too advanced and carry too much emotion and intelligence for it all to end with death. That energy has to go somewhere, but I'm not going to be so presumptuous as to speculate on where. That's up to forces way bigger than us and let's face it, noone knows for sure.

 

[basque9]

I'm not religious, but I can't help but feel the world is too special and that we humans are too advanced and carry too much emotion and intelligence for it all to end with death. That energy has to go somewhere, but I'm not going to be so presumptuous as to speculate on where. That's up to forces way bigger than us and let's face it, noone knows for sure.

Thoughts from an enlightened man who realizes the enormity of cosmic existence and who has an open mind to the transmutability of life's forces of energy! Such thinking needs be respected!:smile::smile:

 

[B_tallbig]

Thoughts from an enlightened man who realizes the enormity of cosmic existence and who has an open mind to the transmutability of life's forces of energy! Such thinking needs be respected!:smile::smile:

yep i agree

 

[Equus14]

the general definition of free will is that we shape our lives according to our choices and action. i dont believe in that . nobody has total control of their lives and the choices we make or not make are influenced by some factors or variables. nobody make choices completely free

Can you give me an idea of the variables and factors you are talking about?

 

[Equus14]

You are entirely mistaken when you say you did not misquote my comments and that you did not attribute a number of my comments to The Reverend!
Merely scrollback to my posting numbered 82. In your posting numbered 89, you quoted ver batim from a number of my remarks and then attributed them to The Reverend and then responded to them as if I were a piously religious person...remarks completely off the mark!
I do not ever deny remarks that I have posted, yes , I have a spiritual dimension to my persona. That does not permit you to be insulting or disrespectful of that aspect ( flaw is the way you must visualize it) of my being! So, you are a nonbeliever...so be it..it is not all that significant in the totality of the universal or of the unknown! Peace!:smile:

I stand corrrected, and I apologize for the mixup. I really have no idea how that happened. The method of multiple replies on one post is new to me. Yet my last post to you was to you and I stand by my comment. Repect is earned and I do not respect anyone for their beliefs, period. I ask for no respect from anyone and I expect none, and I'm never disappointed in that. I do however respect everyone's right to exist. That is my respect for life itself and goes no father nor does it imply anything more than what it seems.

 

[B_tallbig]

Can you give me an idea of the variables and factors you are talking about?

for example live cirmcumstances that force us to choose for example

someone graduated from college and dont find a job according to thier preparation and in his home thinks turn harsh his father parents cant work if the guy live yet with his parents and he is force to choose to work in a fastfood or another harsh work with poor paid . if the guy live alone and dont have savings he is force because of desperations to get a job not matter what bad the job is
also the guy dont have complete control to get a job even in fast food. for some season the manager could choose not to give him a job.
that is one example of millions of variables. i woulnt end here telling examples

 

[breeze]

I personally dont believe in any mary aparitions and any dogma of the chatholic church but i respect your believes and in any way i will not try to convince otherwise in your thinking

I respect your opinion as well. I am suspending my personal beliefs as much as i can for this forum. The only agenda i care about is the truth. I'm trying to be as objective and open minded as i can. Stating God exists doesn't mean God exists. Likewises stating there is no God doesn't mean there isn't a God. The problem as i see it is that people want to believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts. However for this particular topic the stakes are high. We're not talking about will clinton be the next president or will ohio state beat LSU. If we have a soul we are talking about where we will spent eternity. For that purpose i presented what i consider a very intiricate appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary. And for the life of me I can't think of a reasonable explanation that explains what happened at fatima. I wanted to know if others had one.

 

[D_Earlsomme Eatsprick]

after discussing what happen to us at death with another thread iam would like to know what is the theory of most people here. That dont solve anything but iam curious about that

vote :
1. death is the end

Death is the beginning, simply because only with our death there is, on earth, the space for the lives of our children

 

[B_tallbig]

I respect your opinion as well. I am suspending my personal beliefs as much as i can for this forum. The only agenda i care about is the truth. I'm trying to be as objective and open minded as i can. Stating God exists doesn't mean God exists. Likewises stating there is no God doesn't mean there isn't a God. The problem as i see it is that people want to believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts. However for this particular topic the stakes are high. We're not talking about will clinton be the next president or will ohio state beat LSU. If we have a soul we are talking about where we will spent eternity. For that purpose i presented what i consider a very intiricate appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary. And for the life of me I can't think of a reasonable explanation that explains what happened at fatima. I wanted to know if others had one.

yea even people that dont believe in mary aparitions would like to know an complete explanation of the phenomena

 

[B_tallbig]

Death is the beginning, simply because only with our death there is, on earth, the space for the lives of our children

from that point of view is valid what you said

 

[breeze]

The only theory that fits all the facts would have to be that they actually saw something. That doesn't mean it was the sun since we know that the sun cannot do those things and the sun was exactly where it should be for the rest world and nothing unusual happened with the sun for those other people. So these people must have seen something, but it could not have been the sun. What it was? Who knows. They clearly thought it was the sun but like I said, eye witness testimony isn't very reliable. It may have just been an illusion.

I think you're beginning to grasp what we're up against. I have no agenda except the truth. It may have been an illusion but if it was it was an illusion that covered a radius of 25miles. Is an illusion of that magnitude even possible ? And it wasn't a random illusion. A little girl pointed at the sky then the clouds parted and the sun began its dance. What in the world can create that kind of illusion. Keep in mind if something hadn't happen the little girl might have been harmed as the crowd threaten her if there wasn't a miracle. She must be the greatest magician of all time.
You're absolutely right when you state eye witness testimony isn't very reliable. But you're talking about 50,000 or 100,000 witnesses. There were trained reporters , scientists , reseachers , skeptics , atheists , from around the world. You name it. You would think they would know better. And everyone interviewed reported the same thing. There are other questions too in a very complicated apparition { you don't know the half of it }. There were plenty of cameras rolling in the valley. The pictures of the crowd were developed , the prints of the sun were blank. How can that happen ? It had been pouring that day { the reason the crowd was so angry and threaten the 3 children if nothing happened }. Everyone and everything was soaking wet. At the end of the apparition a wind swept across the valley and in an instance everyone and everything was dry. You think , reporters and scientists , would be able to report that accurately. It is impossible that the sun did what it. We wouldn't be here if it did. But if was the Blessed Virgin Mary then all things are possible. I'm not saying it was the Blessed Virgin or it wasn't. I'm only stating the facts for everyone to judge and asking for other reasonable explanations , in the search for the truth , because for the life of me i can't think of any. I lived in the south for a couple of years. There is a whole different world out there.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

Real miracles should be far more miraculous than seeing what you think looks like a face in a half-eaten grilled cheese sandwich. For an "all powerful" deity God sure does seem to be pulling some truly half-assed miracles lately. What happened to parting seas, walking on water, impregnating virgins, turning water to wine, raising the dead, or killing all the firstborn or Egypt in a single night? None of that ever actually happens, so the believers turn to cloud formations, dirty sheets and condensation on statues to prove the miraculous powers of their God. Kind of sad.

Miracle | The Daily Show | Comedy Central