Democratic party 2020 candidate speculation / discussion thread.

Klingsor

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There were dozens of reasons why she lost. Timing. A bad campaigning strategy. A shit ton of baggage. The list goes on and on. That's why she was such a flawed candidate.

She received nearly three million more popular votes than Trump, so she very nearly won. You're right, she was flawed, but not nearly as flawed as Trump, which was why she was pulling away right up to the end, until Comey's stunt.

I'm not saying she was the greatest candidate; I'm just pointing out that our perfect 20/20 hindsight would look very different if she had won.
 
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pp_ryder

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She received nearly three million more popular votes than Trump, so she very nearly won. You're right, she was flawed, but not nearly as flawed as Trump, which was why she was pulling away right up to the end, until Comey's stunt.

I'm not saying she was the greatest candidate; I'm just pointing out that our perfect 20/20 hindsight would look very different if she had won.
Let's not forget Sanders. He took a lot of votes away from HRC as well... and it looks like he wants to do it again. If he wants to run as a Democrat, he should register as one. Simple as that. If he wants to run as an Independent, get off the Democratic ticket and run! Otherwise, he's going to boost what's-his-face back into another four years. The Democrats' real problem is with themselves, as they don't know what it is, exactly, that they want.
 

TexanStar

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It should be much more interesting this year.

My only fear is that it looks like a rift is forming between the centrist and the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. Their reaction to Beto has been pretty intense. Some of it fair, but still a little bit concerning.

Yeah I'm not certain what the progressive wing is doing to do if a centrist wins the nomination. Optimistically you'd think any opportunity to get Trump out of office is better than nothing, but pessimistically the way some people are talking it sounds like they would rage quit from voting if it's not a progressive.
 

b.c.

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She received nearly three million more popular votes than Trump, so she very nearly won. You're right, she was flawed, but not nearly as flawed as Trump, which was why she was pulling away right up to the end, until Comey's stunt.

I'm not saying she was the greatest candidate; I'm just pointing out that our perfect 20/20 hindsight would look very different if she had won.

More flawed than Trump? Just did my THIRD spit-take of the day! (First one at this site, though...)
Exactly. A RIDICULOUS statement if ever there WAS one. But absolute PROOF of exactly what I'm speaking of... the double standard employed by Trump's supporters and apologists, and UNFORTUNATELY, even by some supposedly on the left.

PRECISELY why Trump has gotten away with doing and saying damn near ANYTHING he's wanted since the start of his candidacy, while we sit around talking about how "flawed" Hillary was and what SHE did wrong.

... fkng PATHETIC, imo.

NOTICE how you can search this entire political forum and will be HARD PRESSED to find anything SIMILAR to that kind of browbeating from Trump's basket of deplorables, his supporters, defenders, and those of LIKE mind.

And now here we are again, with some ready to pick apart the contenders before anyone has had time to even hear their positions, learn what their visions and priorities are, and what they believe they have to offer.
 
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pp_ryder

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We will see. I still think he gets the nomination, though.
If he DOES get the nomination, the Democrats are through for the next ten years*. The Republicans will have a field day tearing this one apart! I'm an old school, left-centrist who believes in affordable - NOT FREE healthcare. I also believe in affordable NOT FREE college tuition. Why? Because people have to have "skin in the game," that's why. If you give healthcare and education out to people who neglect or don't care about it, they'll abuse it and they will take advantage of it because it's FREE and that will absolutely put even MORE OF A BURDEN on those systems as they quickly become unsustainable... And if you don't think people will take advantage of it and abuse it... just look at who's occupying the White House!
*yes, I said ten.
 
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pp_ryder

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Yeah I'm not certain what the progressive wing is doing to do if a centrist wins the nomination. Optimistically you'd think any opportunity to get Trump out of office is better than nothing, but pessimistically the way some people are talking it sounds like they would rage quit from voting if it's not a progressive.
Exactly what they did to Hillary when they (incorrectly) thought she cheated Bernie out of the nomination.
 

b.c.

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Yeah I'm not certain what the progressive wing is doing to do if a centrist wins the nomination. Optimistically you'd think any opportunity to get Trump out of office is better than nothing, but pessimistically the way some people are talking it sounds like they would rage quit from voting if it's not a progressive.

If he DOES get the nomination, the Democrats are through for the next ten years*. The Republicans will have a field day tearing this one apart! I'm an old school, left-centrist who believes in affordable - NOT FREE healthcare. I also believe in affordable NOT FREE college tuition. Why? Because people have to have "skin in the game," that's why. If you give healthcare and education out to people who neglect or don't care about it, they'll abuse it and they will take advantage of it because it's FREE and that will absolutely put even MORE OF A BURDEN on those systems as they quickly become unsustainable... And if you don't think people will take advantage of it and abuse it... just look at who's occupying the White House!
*yes, I said ten.


Back in 2016 (during the primaries) I described myself as left of center too.

And as I said back then, I believed that Trump would've beaten Sanders because he would have exploited several factors.

One being that Bernie said up front that he'd raise taxes to pay for his plan of free healthcare and tuition. Saying that up front has always been a political nail in the coffin.

What's more, he didn't seem to generate as much enthusiasm among black voters (not as much as he NEEDED) which I guess, SHOULD shoot holes in the racist notion of black people in particular wanting all this "free shit"... but won't because haters got to hate.

And add to that the fact that he described himself as a democratic-socialist, which in the minds of many back then conjured up the more negative connotation of "socialist" (I think many of the left are more enlightened now), which is something Trump would've turned into "commie"... EXACTLY like they are trying to do NOW.

Bottom line, Hillary, in SPITE OF her alleged gaffs, slights, miscalculations, ties to big money, political tactics when running against Obama (the man who INCIDENTALLY ENDORSED her, stood by her side, and CORRECTLY called her the most qualified person for the job), or any of that other (in retrospect) quite TRIVIAL shit,

was our BEST chance of stopping the political, cultural, and even GLOBAL SHITSHOW that (SOME of us, at least, KNEW) would result from a Trump Oval Office OCCUPANCY.

One would've THOUGHT we'd have LEARNED from it.
 

phonehome

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If he DOES get the nomination, the Democrats are through for the next ten years*. The Republicans will have a field day tearing this one apart! I'm an old school, left-centrist who believes in affordable - NOT FREE healthcare. I also believe in affordable NOT FREE college tuition. Why? Because people have to have "skin in the game," that's why. If you give healthcare and education out to people who neglect or don't care about it, they'll abuse it and they will take advantage of it because it's FREE and that will absolutely put even MORE OF A BURDEN on those systems as they quickly become unsustainable... And if you don't think people will take advantage of it and abuse it... just look at who's occupying the White House!
*yes, I said ten.


All this hand wringing over "free college" and how it is this supposed unobtainable pipe dream when for decades up until about 1970 we had just that.

The fucking irony is that all these now rightwinger baby boomers who are so against the idea were in the mid to late 60's going to USC,, UCLA, Berkley, UW Madison, UM in Ann Arbor and it was free or nearly free

As far as "free healthcare" goes NO ONE with half a brain thinks it will be truly "free" as in no money would be involved. What most us who are rational on the issue understand it that it simply means that we, we as a county would just simply take all this money that is being spent in a very inefficient scatter shot manner and spend it one way on one thing, employing economy of scale and applying it to a model that already "works" and has worked for decades now.

Look at what just the Federal Government alone spends to deliver healthcare at least a dozen different ways to people other than those on Medicare.

Medicaid, "expnaded" and "standard.classic" SCHIP, the medical components of SSI disability and workmans comp, Tricare, FEHB and the VA plus little niche programs for "black lung, 911 first res ponders and through the Bureau of Indian affairs and other similar small bore programs run by HHS

Add it all up and you are already talking about in excess of a trillion dollars a year

There is at least another trillion out there already being spent by others who who be more than happy to just send that money, an equal amount and who knows in the long run ,maybe, just maybe LESS to the Federal government if it meant NEVER having to deal with "healthcare/heath insurance" ever again.

Do you think that state and local governments really want that burden ??

Do you think that employers who are already sending money for each and every employee they have to the federal government really want the additional hassle of dealing with the Aetna's and Blue Cross, Blue Sheild's of the world ?

Do you think employees really want to be "stuck in a job" a job they might very hate because they do not want to risk "loosing their insurance" ?

Do you really think that hospitals would not jump at the chance to make "uncompensated care" a thing of the past?
 

wallyj84

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Back in 2016 (during the primaries) I described myself as left of center too.

And as I said back then, I believed that Trump would've beaten Sanders because he would have exploited several factors.

One being that Bernie said up front that he'd raise taxes to pay for his plan of free healthcare and tuition. Saying that up front has always been a political nail in the coffin.

What's more, he didn't seem to generate as much enthusiasm among black voters (not as much as he NEEDED) which I guess, SHOULD shoot holes in the racist notion of black people in particular wanting all this "free shit"... but won't because haters got to hate.

And add to that the fact that he described himself as a democratic-socialist, which in the minds of many back then conjured up the more negative connotation of "socialist" (I think many of the left are more enlightened now), which is something Trump would've turned into "commie"... EXACTLY like they are trying to do NOW.

Bottom line, Hillary, in SPITE OF her alleged gaffs, slights, miscalculations, ties to big money, political tactics when running against Obama (the man who INCIDENTALLY ENDORSED her, stood by her side, and CORRECTLY called her the most qualified person for the job), or any of that other (in retrospect) quite TRIVIAL shit,

was our BEST chance of stopping the political, cultural, and even GLOBAL SHITSHOW that (SOME of us, at least, KNEW) would result from a Trump Oval Office OCCUPANCY.

One would've THOUGHT we'd have LEARNED from it.

I disagree. I think Bernie would have won. If only for the fact that people were excited for him.

Excitement and enthusiasm matters so much in politics and can hide a lot of flaws in an ideology or politician.
 
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wallyj84

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If he DOES get the nomination, the Democrats are through for the next ten years*. The Republicans will have a field day tearing this one apart! I'm an old school, left-centrist who believes in affordable - NOT FREE healthcare. I also believe in affordable NOT FREE college tuition. Why? Because people have to have "skin in the game," that's why. If you give healthcare and education out to people who neglect or don't care about it, they'll abuse it and they will take advantage of it because it's FREE and that will absolutely put even MORE OF A BURDEN on those systems as they quickly become unsustainable... And if you don't think people will take advantage of it and abuse it... just look at who's occupying the White House!
*yes, I said ten.

People said the same thing about Trump. He won.

In terms of free college and healthcare, how would you want the system to work? Right now what your describing, something where everyone has skin in the game, could be used to describe a lot of universal healthcare systems and even Medicare for all if implemented properly.
 

Tight_N_Juicy

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Yeah I'm not certain what the progressive wing is doing to do if a centrist wins the nomination. Optimistically you'd think any opportunity to get Trump out of office is better than nothing, but pessimistically the way some people are talking it sounds like they would rage quit from voting if it's not a progressive.

It frustrates me to no end as a progressive who isn't going to boycott the election all together if I don't get exactly what I want.

I kinda rub it in the face of anyone who does so that if we only have less than 12 years to do something about climate change, why not just vote for the party that AT LEAST brings it up and doesn't claim it's a hoax.
 

pp_ryder

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...As far as "free healthcare" goes NO ONE with half a brain thinks it will be truly "free" as in no money would be involved. What most us who are rational on the issue understand it that it simply means that we, we as a county would just simply take all this money that is being spent in a very inefficient scatter shot manner and spend it one way on one thing, employing economy of scale and applying it to a model that already "works" and has worked for decades now.
And unfortunately, that's exactly how the Republicans will portray it... as a giveaway program. Do you think anyone with half a brain supports the representatives that sit on the right-hand side of aisle?
 
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pp_ryder

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People said the same thing about Trump. He won.

In terms of free college and healthcare, how would you want the system to work? Right now what your describing, something where everyone has skin in the game, could be used to describe a lot of universal healthcare systems and even Medicare for all if implemented properly.
...and that's exactly what I'm saying. Universal healthcare and education aren't "free", they are responsible programs.
 
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Sagittarius84

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It frustrates me to no end as a progressive who isn't going to boycott the election all together if I don't get exactly what I want.

I kinda rub it in the face of anyone who does so that if we only have less than 12 years to do something about climate change, why not just vote for the party that AT LEAST brings it up and doesn't claim it's a hoax.
I tire of this narrative too, it is disingenuous at best that progressives simply boycott general elections they don't win in the primaries...
What they really want to say but understand the implications of doing so is they feel entitled to the same excitement and fervor that inspires moderates and independents to hop on board as it were. "Bernie bros" for all their toxic rhetoric, held their noses and filled in D on the ballot..what they didn't do, as they would've for Bernie(notably Hillary supporters pulled this on Obama in greater numbers, again short memories) was make the buzz so palpable that middle ground folk and regular nonvoters would be inspired to jump om board with making history, and that is the well from which this constant resentment springs.
Competency and history may get you a well deserved popular vote, but collaborative inspiration is what clenches the electoral college...
The primary proof is really in the demographic background of how people voted, and "53%" should be tattooed uppn the person of any politician that tries to assimilate Hillary Clinton's trajectory into their own political careers so they can remind themselves of where not to steer wrong.
 
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lookatthat

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You're right, she was flawed,
That's actually untrue. You're saying she required perfection to be an acceptable candidate. She ran against Obama in 2008, and a treasonous reptile in 2016.
Obama had no experience. The reptile is a reptile. But Hillary was flawed.
jesus fucking christ
She wasn't flawed. Know who has an unsecured server? Jared. Ivanka. Trump's phone. Every Secretary of State since Colin Powell. Colin Powell recommended to Hillary that she use a private server. John Kerry. As WHAT ABOUT HER EMAILS LOCK HER UP was happening, John Kerry was using a private server.
Benghazi was litigated 9x by Congress.
She was investigated for more than 35 years (and her husband)
She was blamed for bearing antipathy to the woman who fucked her husband.
There was literally a cottage industry built to disparage her. Films. Books. Investigations. Private investigators. PR flacks. Bannon's alt right troll farms.
She never did anything wrong, was investigated by generations of attorneys and administrations, and they still chant "Lock her up." As much of Trump's inner circle is locked up, and he will be when he leaves the Presidency in a few months.

She was NOT flawed. There probably has never been a bureaucrat better prepared to be President than her. That people need politics to be a team sport or a reality TV show so they're entertained is the flaw in democracy. Some people are too stupid to vote. Their thoughts are not the equivalent of others' thoughts.

There is a prevailing thought that she's flawed. That's because there was an industry devoted to spreading propaganda against her. You swallowed it. Trump is your president because you can casually say, "But she was flawed."
 

b.c.

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I disagree. I think Bernie would have won. If only for the fact that people were excited for him.

Excitement and enthusiasm matters so much in politics and can hide a lot of flaws in an ideology or politician.
I was excited about many of his ideas too. But after the primaries were over, and the winner declared, the pragmatic in me took over.

As I've written about a dozen times now, had Bernie won the nomination (and yes, Hillary WON it... it wasn't "stolen"), I'd have been A ZILLION PERCENT behind Bernie - especially KNOWING what would (and in fact HAS) become of our country with Trump in the W.H. Wouldn't have been non of this wishy washy, hold my nose and vote stuff.

Nor any of this second guessing and recriminations of him had he LOST. I find the fact that there actually are liberals who think the evils of Hillary and Trump are about what and what to be mind boggling... to say the LEAST.

But hey... that's done. How 'bout we at least give the current crop of hopefuls a chance to have their SAY before we start dissecting THEM??

That's actually untrue. You're saying she required perfection to be an acceptable candidate. She ran against Obama in 2008, and a treasonous reptile in 2016.
Obama had no experience. The reptile is a reptile. But Hillary was flawed.
jesus fucking christ
She wasn't flawed. Know who has an unsecured server? Jared. Ivanka. Trump's phone. Every Secretary of State since Colin Powell. Colin Powell recommended to Hillary that she use a private server. John Kerry. As WHAT ABOUT HER EMAILS LOCK HER UP was happening, John Kerry was using a private server.
Benghazi was litigated 9x by Congress.
She was investigated for more than 35 years (and her husband)
She was blamed for bearing antipathy to the woman who fucked her husband.
There was literally a cottage industry built to disparage her. Films. Books. Investigations. Private investigators. PR flacks. Bannon's alt right troll farms.
She never did anything wrong, was investigated by generations of attorneys and administrations, and they still chant "Lock her up." As much of Trump's inner circle is locked up, and he will be when he leaves the Presidency in a few months.

She was NOT flawed. There probably has never been a bureaucrat better prepared to be President than her. That people need politics to be a team sport or a reality TV show so they're entertained is the flaw in democracy. Some people are too stupid to vote. Their thoughts are not the equivalent of others' thoughts.

There is a prevailing thought that she's flawed. That's because there was an industry devoted to spreading propaganda against her. You swallowed it. Trump is your president because you can casually say, "But she was flawed."


EXACTLY! THANK you. And the fact that so MANY liberals have bought into this concept while conservatives give Trump FREE PASS, is further proof of how SOME liberals are still bringing knives to a fkng GUNFIGHT.



 
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JulieInNaplesFL

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I think Trump will at least make it through January - but you may be right.

Your confuzzzzzzzzed in your old age. Beto Bozo ate dirt, excuse me, Magic Dirt to rejuvenate himself after he got beat by Cruz. Bozo even took some home to his wife and kids.
You can't make this shit up look it up Bozo tells you himself. The guy is nuts.