Democrats are playing Political Games with the American Voter's HealthCare

[Ericsson1228d]

Lots of percentages, yet no exact number of the people called.
Even if the poll was only done to 100 people, percentages could look just as accurate, with the message delivered could be just as deceiving. Math is still not your friend.

Funny, you didn't make this comment about Rasmussen polls when Industrialsize and others quoted them in another thread. I guess that looking at things critically is only important when you don't like what they say.

 

[deleted213967]

Funny, you didn't make this comment about Rasmussen polls when Industrialsize and others quoted them in another thread. I guess that looking at things critically is only important when you don't like what they say.

"I fully agree" on this point.

Rasmussen is a respectable shop whose own business interest is to never be perceived as biased. As its competitors, Rasmussen uses a standard, broadly-accepted statistical sampling methodology.

Still, when dealing with such complex topics, simplistic, pollster-style, closed-ended questions often yield misleading results.

 

[JTalbain]

"I fully agree" on this point.

Rasmussen is a respectable shop whose own business interest is to never be perceived as biased. As its competitors, Rasmussen uses a standard, broadly-accepted statistical sampling methodology.

Still, when dealing with such complex topics, simplistic, pollster-style, closed-ended questions often yield misleading results.

I similarly do not dispute the credibility of Rasmussen.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Funny, you didn't make this comment about Rasmussen polls when Industrialsize and others quoted them in another thread. I guess that looking at things critically is only important when you don't like what they say.

To be brutally honest, I don't pay attention to most polls at all. They're all flawed, and only represent a small portion of the entire base of people in our country. I rarely use information produced by one poll as a means to dispute anything these days. I would, however, use several sources and find an average between them all. More sources from various angles usually means more accuracy.

However, your post history on this board is genuinely dishonest and loaded with the usual partisan bullshit that even most liberals (like myself) are sick of. As reflected by your latest comment: I am sure the Dems will jam it down our throats anyway, even though the majority doesn't want it.

Hence my response. Until this most recent poll, most people (regardless of party affiliation) wanted some kind of Health Care Reform... even during the so-called town halls. Knowing this, and also knowing that polls will fluctuate every hour if you conducted a new one, to suggest that Dems are now "jamming something down people's throats" is just another one of your lines of disingenuous bullshit. But hey, don't let that stop you from spreading your usual "liberals are evil" garbage.

 

[Ericsson1228d]

To be brutally honest, I don't pay attention to most polls at all. They're all flawed, and only represent a small portion of the entire base of people in our country. I rarely use information produced by one poll as a means to dispute anything these days. I would, however, use several sources and find an average between them all. More sources from various angles usually means more accuracy.

However, your post history on this board is genuinely dishonest and loaded with the usual partisan bullshit that even most liberals (like myself) are sick of. As reflected by your latest comment: I am sure the Dems will jam it down our throats anyway, even though the majority doesn't want it.

Hence my response. Until this most recent poll, most people (regardless of party affiliation) wanted some kind of Health Care Reform... even during the so-called town halls. Knowing this, and also knowing that polls will fluctuate every hour if you conducted a new one, to suggest that Dems are now "jamming something down people's throats" is just another one of your lines of disingenuous bullshit. But hey, don't let that stop you from spreading your usual "liberals are evil" garbage.

Funny, if your real problem was with my statement about the "Dems jamming healthcare reform down our throats", why did you attack the poll?

To respond to my post by a.) backpedaling on your earlier post, where you attempted to discredit Rasmussen , and b.) drawing attention away from your original assertion against Rasmussen by calling me "genuinely dishonest" in my posting history, is simply a transparent attempt to demonize me. So, I guess, even when the opposition makes a good point, the proper debating tactic is to attempt to discredit them on a personal level? Talk about spreading garbage.

 

[SilverTrain]

No purely anecdotal case should be used to buttress either side of the debate. Some high-profile physicians and medical centers specialize in rare conditions and are simply the patient's best hope.

I am sure you'd seek care at the Magic Mormon Clinic in Salt Lake City if your attending physician convinced you that it was your best chance at survival.

By the same token, Glenn Beck himself would fly to Paris if a renowned French surgeon were his only hope to beat his hypothetical cancer.

Of course. That's exactly the point I've been making.

 

[Ericsson1228d]

I agree with the posters above who point out that isolated anecdotes shouldn't be used to shore up arguments, on either "side of the aisle."

I mean, one could find an isolated case to support almost any argument.

 

[JTalbain]

I agree with the posters above who point out that isolated anecdotes shouldn't be used to shore up arguments, on either "side of the aisle."

I mean, one could find an isolated case to support almost any argument.

Too true.

I think that an important thing to keep in mind is that it is the Republican Party who has repeatedly been accused of stalling. It is also the Republican Party who has been affiliated with dubious organization which have attempted to discredit the President. It is the Republican party which has had members openly stating their stalling tactics have been for political gain.

Finally, it is most important to remember that while all of these antics are going on, roughly 18% of the nation (over 50 million people) are without health insurance, and will remain so until Congress gets its collective head out of its collective ass.

Then I look at the title of the thread and remember that the Democrats are playing games with our healthcare. The logic astounds me.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Funny, if your real problem was with my statement about the "Dems jamming healthcare reform down our throats", why did you attack the poll?

All I stated was that it's ONE POLL. That's not an attack, it's fact.
We still don't know how many people were surveyed in the poll. That also not an attack, but a fact. I never once questioned the authenticity of their numbers. Again, all I ask for was more information. Not just a bunch of percentages. How that adds up to be an "attack" to you is beyond the realm of logic.

To respond to my post by a.) backpedaling on your earlier post, where you attempted to discredit Rasmussen

Requesting more information about a poll, such as how many people were actually surveyed, is not an attempt to discredit a poll.

b.) drawing attention away from your original assertion against Rasmussen by calling me "genuinely dishonest" in my posting history is simply a transparent attempt to demonize me.

You have perfected the act of being a victim... pathetic.
You're the one trying to spin one poll result into some generalized, nationwide answer about Health Care Reform as well as a partisan attack on Democrats. I would of had no reason to call you dishonest if you actually viewed the information that was given, used the least bit of common sense about polls and made a comment about the changing atmosphere with the Health Care Debate that didn't try to isolate one particular political party.

Alas, this is just another one of the many distorted., half-truths that you trumpet around here. Don't get mad that we have the ability to figure it out and then call you on it.

So, I guess, even when the opposition makes a good point, the proper debating tactic is to attempt to discredit them on a personal level?

I have to give it to you...
You spin around in circles more than Dorothy Hamill on ice skates. Too bad it doesn't change the facts.

Talk about spreading garbage.

Yeah, if only you would put a lid on that hole of yours we could only contain it...

 

[deleted213967]

Finally, it is most important to remember that while all of these antics are going on, roughly 18% of the nation (over 50 million people) are without health insurance, and will remain so until Congress gets its collective head out of its collective ass.

This number masks another eyesore of the US health care landscape: that of insured Americans who are not covered or vastly under-covered for the condition(s) that afflict(s) them:

Common tricks:

• Preexisting Condition
• "Prudent Person" Preexisting Condition
• Experimental Treatment
• Failure To Disclose

Although I am not a big fan of Michael Moore's slanted style, I have to admit that 'Sicko', which only dealt with the insured Americans, effectively highlighted the least glorious aspects of our broken health care system.

 

[Ericsson1228d]

Why don't we deal with the near 10% unemployment rate first? If people aren't working, they probably can't afford any kind of health insurance.

I haven't seen how Health care reform will help put a single person back to work.

 

[Pendlum]

Why don't we deal with the near 10% unemployment rate first? If people aren't working, they probably can't afford any kind of health insurance.

I haven't seen how Health care reform will help put a single person back to work.

I would say being sick a lot makes it hard to work. That is why they have sick days, and since you don't get paid for them, even if you don't get canned because of this, you still make less money than others who aren't sick.

And if you do get canned, that certainly makes things worse doesn't it.

Oh and dead people can't work.

 

[Ericsson1228d]

I would say being sick a lot makes it hard to work. That is why they have sick days, and since you don't get paid for them, even if you don't get canned because of this, you still make less money than others who aren't sick.

And if you do get canned, that certainly makes things worse doesn't it.

Oh and dead people can't work.

Oh, I didn't realize the unemployment crisis was because of sickness.

And many businesses pay their salaried employees for X number of sick days per year.

 

[Pendlum]

Oh, I didn't realize the unemployment crisis was because of sickness.

And many businesses pay their salaried employees for X number of sick days per year.

I never said it was. You however said you don't know how it would help a SINGLE person work. So I pointed out a group it would help.

Fair enough, not all do, and it does run out. But I was mostly thinking of the chronically sick because they can't get what they need.

 

[JTalbain]

And plenty of people that are employed do not have health insurance through their employers. Those that don't have to get it directly, which is usually about 3 times as expensive, more than many can afford, especially since so many Americans maintain large amounts of debt and live from paycheck to paycheck.

Prices are very high in American medicine. This is because insurance companies pay for them. However, this necessitates either being rich or having insurance to pay for American medicine. They need reforms like the ones they have discussed, which allow people to pay for it.

 

[Industrialsize]

And plenty of people that are employed do not have health insurance through their employers. Those that don't have to get it directly, which is usually about 3 times as expensive, more than many can afford, especially since so many Americans maintain large amounts of debt and live from paycheck to paycheck.

Prices are very high in American medicine. This is because insurance companies pay for them. However, this necessitates either being rich or having insurance to pay for American medicine. They need reforms like the ones they have discussed, which allow people to pay for it.

I am self employed. I get group rate insurance through the local Chamber of Commerce. My health insurance costs me 840 dollars a month. I take 6 medications a day for various conditions and their copays add up to 100 dollars a month. I see a therapist once a week and pay a 25 dollar copay for the privledge. That brings my base cost for my insurance to 1040 dollars a month. I was recently hospitalized for 3 days because I slipped in my kitchen and banged my head hard enough that I had a brain bleed. That co-pay will be 1000 dollars. 2 follow up visits with the neurologist with a 25 dollar copay for each. I am trying to sell my business and move but have realized it will be impossible because i would have to buy health insurance on the open market and with my several pre-existing conditions I am basically un-insurable. I don't think my situation is uncommon.

 

[JTalbain]

I am self employed. I get group rate insurance through the local Chamber of Commerce. My health insurance costs me 840 dollars a month. I take 6 medications a day for various conditions and their copays add up to 100 dollars a month. I see a therapist once a week and pay a 25 dollar copay for the privledge. That brings my base cost for my insurance to 1040 dollars a month. I was recently hospitalized for 3 days because I slipped in my kitchen and banged my head hard enough that I had a brain bleed. That co-pay will be 1000 dollars. 2 follow up visits with the neurologist with a 25 dollar copay for each. I am trying to sell my business and move but have realized it will be impossible because i would have to buy health insurance on the open market and with my several pre-existing conditions I am basically un-insurable. I don't think my situation is uncommon.

Wow, your medical bills with insurance are more than I even make.

 

[Industrialsize]

Wow, your medical bills with insurance are more than I even make.

I am sure I am one of many in similar circumstances. That's why I start to sputter when people say we don't need Health care reform in this country.

 

[HazelGod]

Why don't we deal with the near 10% unemployment rate first? If people aren't working, they probably can't afford any kind of health insurance.

I haven't seen how Health care reform will help put a single person back to work.

Ah, there's our old pal the false dichotomy.

Why would you have people believe these two problems can't be tackled simultaneously?

 

[Industrialsize]

Public Support For Health Reform Increases in September, Reversing Summer Declines as Congress Takes Up Legislation

Survey Finds Support For New Proposals For Fees And Taxes on Insurance Companies to Help Pay For Overhaul

MENLO PARK, CA -- Public support for health reform ended its summer slide, reversed course and moved modestly upwards in September, according to the latest Kaiser Health Tracking Poll.

Fifty-seven percent of Americans now believe that tackling health care reform is more important than ever -- up from 53 percent in August. The proportion of Americans who think their families would be better off if health reform passes is up six percentage points (42% versus 36% in August), and the percentage who think that the country would be better off is up eight points (to 53% from 45% in August).

Public Support For Health Reform Increases in September, Reversing Summer Declines as Congress Takes Up Legislation - Kaiser Family Foundation