Dems reach 60th vote on healthcare debate

[B_VinylBoy]

I am happy happy happy that we have something, that the Harry and Louise ads that helped kill HillaryCare did not work this time around, that in spite of all the lies and disinformation we have something to work with. So much better the Second Time Around :biggrin1:

And isn't it ironic that the things we were warned about in these commercials happened anyhow, even without reform?

Having little to no choice?
Premiums more than doubling?
Fewer people covered?

 

[thadjock]

And isn't it ironic that the things we were warned about in these commercials happened anyhow, even without reform?

Having little to no choice?
Premiums more than doubling?
Fewer people covered?

no, i'll tell u what's ironic:

this so called "reform bill" you champion doesn't change any of those things.

with no public option, we'll have the exact same choices we have now, there's not even a medicare/medicaid buy-in!

there's no provision to control or regulate costs at all,
not on the insurance side or the care provider side. premiums will continue to double. They contend that doctors, insurance cos. and drug cos. are all just going to spontaneously lower their prices??? yeah right.

and you'll still have tons of people not covered because they can't afford to buy the mandated insurance, the subsidy won't cover their premiums so they'll have no option but to pay the penalty, and will remain uninsured.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

no, i'll tell u what's ironic:

this so called "reform bill" you champion doesn't change any of those things.

Who said I was "championing" the bill? Apparently, you haven't comprehended much that I've said. I'm not in 100% support of the Senate Bill. With that said, the main reason why I want it to be voted on and passed is so that we can move to the next step, which is RECONCILIATION. Honestly, do you understand what that means?

with no public option,

It's in the House version, which will also be present during the reconciliation process. Funny how we've all forgotten that.

we'll have the exact same choices we have now, there's not even a medicare/medicaid buy-in!

there's no provision to control or regulate costs at all,
not on the insurance side or the care provider side. premiums will continue to double. They contend that doctors, insurance cos. and drug cos. are all just going to spontaneously lower their prices??? yeah right.

and you'll still have tons of people not covered because they can't afford to buy the mandated insurance, the subsidy won't cover their premiums so they'll have no option but to pay the penalty, and will remain uninsured.

Instead of repeating the obvious and regurgitating the political rhetoric, can you at least look at the full process and figure out that this is not the end of this issue? Will it ever get through to you that some of the things we've seen proposed in the House & Senate Bills may not pass reconciliation? Or are you going to continue screaming about how we're all doomed? Focus, thadjock... you're falling deeper into the fringe with every post.

 

[thadjock]

thadjock... you're falling deeper into the fringe with every post.

ya i understand what reconcilliation is, and ur livin in a dream world

it's not what i see proposed that bothers me, a subtractive process won't improve this bill. it's what i don't see proposed that's the problem, and you can't pull things out of thin air and add them to the bill, without going to the hill.

but don't let me disrupt your hallucinations.

don't worry....be happy....

 

[B_VinylBoy]

ya i understand what reconcilliation is, and ur livin in a dream world

but don't let me disrupt your hallucinations.

And what's the alternative, thadjock?
Join the rest of the screaming Chicken Littles in the fringe who have lost all sense of hope in the government, frothing at the mouth with pointless rhetoric about how everyone in Congress is out to screw you and that we need to start revolting... as if any of these so-called revolutionists would have the balls to actually do something about it beyond bitch at people like us who have more patience? Does this mean we'll be seeing you at the next tea bag convention? Be sure to wave at us when the camera moves by.

People in government are going to do whatever the hell they want anyhow. They've been doing it since the very beginning. Unless you want to become part of the game, you have no choice but to sit back and let the process take its course. If you want to be pessimistic about this, that's your choice. But I'm sick of watching a bunch of whiny twits try to tell me what I should be thinking on this issue. If you don't want to be part of the solution, then step aside, grab a picket sign and yell at the top of your lungs. But don't get in the way of others who want to see this whole measure through before making a final decision.

 

[thadjock]

And what's the alternative, thadjock?
Join the rest of the screaming Chicken Littles in the fringe who have lost all sense of hope in the government, frothing at the mouth with pointless rhetoric about how everyone in Congress is out to screw you and that we need to start revolting...
.

i'm not one of the "fringe" but i can see that it serves your purpose to paint me as one.

u like to argue. u need opponents.

 

[joyboytoy79]

ya i understand what reconcilliation is, and ur livin in a dream world

it's not what i see proposed that bothers me, a subtractive process won't improve this bill. it's what i don't see proposed that's the problem, and you can't pull things out of thin air and add them to the bill, without going to the hill.

but don't let me disrupt your hallucinations.

don't worry....be happy....

Thad,

Reconciliation isn't a subtractive process. It's a conjunctive process. Things are conjoined from the two different bills. We don't keep one bill or the other, we make a new one that has bits and pieces of both of the old ones. I agree it's a messy process and there's no guarantee that what we both want (a public option) will be on the final bill. However, if the senate version doesn't pass, there will be no reconcilliation, there will be no new bill, there will be nothing. The process will cease. There will be no more input. We'll have to restart from scratch. Moving forward will always produce uncertainty, that's a part of change, but hope exists in that uncertainty, and that's why we push onward.

Don't give up hope yet. The Senate bill SUCKS, but if it passes, there's hope for the good parts of the House bill(i.e. the Public Option) to make it into the final process. If it doesn't pass, we can kiss all hope of a public option goodbye.

 

[thadjock]

Thad,

Reconciliation isn't a subtractive process. It's a conjunctive process. Things are conjoined from the two different bills. We don't keep one bill or the other, we make a new one that has bits and pieces of both of the old ones.
you can't end up with a bill that's greater than the sum of it's parts. the only thing u can do in reconcilliation is leave parts out. how is that not subtractive?

but thanks for your schoolhouse-rock condescension

Don't give up hope yet. The Senate bill SUCKS, but if it passes, there's hope for the good parts of the House bill(i.e. the Public Option) to make it into the final process. If it doesn't pass, we can kiss all hope of a public option goodbye.

u really think any final bill with a public option is going to cross the finish line? that's already been flagged as a non starter.

that along with federal money for abortions are D.O.A

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

As long as we are all willing to ante up about $10-15000 per family or individual, we can have single payer public health care.

Thats what healthcare costs in America. There are no shortcuts. There are no huge savings out there short of death panels.

Thats likely what it costs in Europe. You add up all the taxes in Europe and I bet you have about about $10-15K more than America. If you want that, fine. Realize that our standard of living will plunge as it has in Europe.

The neo rads here think that a public option will mean someone else will pay for their healthcare. That won't happen. You will have to pay for it yourself. If you are making $40k now you will be making $30K after we get a public option. The math cannot be denied.

 

[Industrialsize]

As long as we are all willing to ante up about $10-15000 per family or individual, we can have single payer public health care.

Thats what healthcare costs in America. There are no shortcuts. There are no huge savings out there short of death panels.

Thats likely what it costs in Europe. You add up all the taxes in Europe and I bet you have about about $10-15K more than America. If you want that, fine. Realize that our standard of living will plunge as it has in Europe.

The neo rads here think that a public option will mean someone else will pay for their healthcare. That won't happen. You will have to pay for it yourself. If you are making $40k now you will be making $30K after we get a public option. The math cannot be denied.

Everything in this post can be denied.

 

[joyboytoy79]

u really think any final bill with a public option is going to cross the finish line? that's already been flagged as a non starter.

that along with federal money for abortions are D.O.A

Nice of you to interpret my tone as condescending. It wasn't meant to be.

My point was that I don't know what's going to happen if the bill passes, but I do know what will happen if it doesn't. Reconciliation is NOT subtractive. Neither is it additive. I never said it was. You, yourself, said you hoped for a Public Option. The House Bill, which has already passed, HAS A PUBLIC OPTION!!! That bill will go nowhere if the Senate version doesn't pass. If the Senate Bill doesn't pass, the hope for a public option dies. It's really that simple. If it does pass, there is still hope for the public option, because it's IN THE HOUSE BILL (Now, i'm being condescending.)!!!

Do I think a bill with a public option will make it through reconciliation? I really don't know. Stranger things have happened. I don't have a crystal ball. I KNOW if the Senate bill doesn't pass, the public option is lost. That's the simple reality.

 

[thadjock]

Do I think a bill with a public option will make it through reconciliation? I really don't know. Stranger things have happened. I don't have a crystal ball. I KNOW if the Senate bill doesn't pass, the public option is lost. That's the simple reality.

i don't have a crystal ball either, i don't need one:

see this-------------->>> writing on wall

 

[B_VinylBoy]

i'm not one of the "fringe" but i can see that it serves your purpose to paint me as one.

Well, you're certainly typing like one right now in this thread. Shall we review some of your doozies?

u like to argue. u need opponents.

You like arguing too because you respond. Pot, kettle...

Despite all of the heated words between us, there are some things we do agree on. We just disagree on how our government should proceed from here. We also disagree on Obama's performance thus far but that's a futile argument that I will simply not engage in anymore. I'd rather have reasonable discussions with people. Unfortunately, when the person on the other side forms an argument of utter despair using various blog headlines and distorted talking points, insinuating that anyone who doesn't see things through the same pessimistic kaleidoscope is somehow uninformed or naive, it makes it very hard for me to remain civil.

 

[Big Al]

Interesting developments on this issue: Senator Stupak: My party’s trying to bribe me to vote for ObamaCare

 

[B_Marius567]

why are you happy for heath care reform when it kicks in 5 years?

I hope it make smokers to stop smoking sense I do not want pay for there sick and nasty hobby when they get sick from it!!!!

 

[faceking]

latest leak is married folk pay $2K more than unmarried couples... throws a wrench in the ol' same sex marriage... unfortunately, that's a minute part of the population.

as this disaster is all done behind close doors... the media, economists, GOP, et al will FINALLY get to dissect this cacophony during the campaign season JUST as the taxes hit, and the healthcare is still 3 years away.

5 Dems dropping out, more to come. a recall on Nelson, if it were logical, etc...

Wow did the DNC fuck up the advantage so quick... unfortunately at the cost of Americans.

We don't want nationalized healthcare, and we know the boogeyman of global warming is a fraud... you shoulda settled for national parks, or welfare for existing illegals, or gay marriage, whoops your boy Barry don't like it... Barry don't like that transparency thing none either...