Did feminism go to far?

[D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah]

After reading a post in a previous thread saying women need to leave their balls at work and be the woman at home to be treated like a queen. And how most men prefer to be "the man" in the relationship.

I do personally agree that we needed some change, for example wives and mothers are now working so they should expect their men to help around the house with cooking, cleaning etc. Also that a woman should have the choice if she ants to work after having children.

But in the end do women still need to be women (ie: feminine, caring) and men need to be men (provider, worker) etc?

Also did men lose to many rights in the process or was it just evening up the playing field?

Are we better off now then we were before?

 

[whatireallywant]

I think we are MUCH better off now! As a highly nontraditional female, who was nontraditonal from the time I was a toddler on, being stuck in a tradtional role would be extremely stifling and oppressive to me. I would not be able to pursue any of my interests, and would be stuck only doing things I find extremely tedious. This is my true personality. Trying to fit into a traditional female mold would be untrue to myself, and would be devastating to me.

I look for a man who is comfortable enough to accept women as equals, and who accepts feminism as a necessary equal rights movement. This is not just "one of the things I look for", it is the PRIMARY thing I look for. You don't accept this, I will not be staying with you for very long.

In my opinion, it did not go far ENOUGH. There are still sexist biases out there, and that needs to stop. I have been hurt by those things all my life.

 

[Act2_Begins_Now]

this is going to be a great thread. unfortunately i dont have time to provide detail to my response. which is ...

yes it did

tomorrow morning i will be back.

 

[Principessa]

After reading a post in a previous thread saying women need to leave their balls at work and be the woman at home to be treated like a queen. And how most men prefer to be "the man" in the relationship.

I know the post to which you are referring. I was quite disturbed by his vehement response.

I do personally agree that we needed some change, for example wives and mothers are now working so they should expect their men to help around the house with cooking, cleaning etc.[/QUOTE

] Or maybe we could resurrect the time when all middle class households had housekeepers

who were there daily from sun-up to sundown.

Also that a woman should have the choice if she wants to work after having children.

I agree but in order for that to happen we would need major change to occur at the federal level.

But in the end do women still need to be women (ie: feminine, caring) and men need to be men (provider, worker) etc?

In order for a household especially one with children to run efficiently and effectively someone must take on the "feminine" role. In many households the husband stays home and takes care of the kids, meals, laundry etc. This works for a lot of people especially when the woman makes more money or has better benefits.

Also did men lose too many rights in the process or was it just evening up the playing field?

Men lost absolutely NOTHING! It allowed women onto the the playing field. It did not even it up. Prior to the 1970's and the ERA women really couldn't do that much in the workforce because nobody would hire them. :duh:

Are we better off now then we were before?

It depends on how you look at it. If you are a woman like WIRW then yes, you are better off than you were before.

 

[HazelGod]

The difference is between choice and subjugation.

In the decades past, women had very little choice but to be the homemakers, the nurturers, the caregivers. It was expected, even demanded of them...ingrained into their upbringing from their youngest days.

In modern times, this has been greatly changed, I think. Women are now raised with the belief that they control their own destinies...their career paths are as wide open and varied as anyone else's. This is not to say such enlightenment is universal...as with racism, there are still pockets of our society that have refused, kicking and screaming, to be brought into the mindset of the 21st century. Still, the widespread institutional indoctrination of the subservient female has mostly been relegated to the past.

This is not to say that men have abdicated or been stripped of any rights or standing...but we have had to adapt to a female ideal that has a mind and will of her own. Plenty may choose the traditional role of the mother and homemaker, leaving the man to be the provider...but this is by choice, not by lack thereof.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Plenty may choose the traditional role of the mother and homemaker, leaving the man to be the provider...but this is by choice, not by lack thereof.

This is why I think feminism, for the most part, is healthy. If women are truly free to make their own choices about what they want for themselves they won't be forced into having to accept a life they don't want.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

hold on there...

I have no problem with women doing whatever they like... I would not relegate women to the home or the kitchen...

My response was not vehement... it was honest.

I LIVED thru the entire feminist movement... and I was actually in support of equal rights.


But, unfortunately, the feminist movement did not merely agitate for equality for women... they agitated for superiority.

It was not enought to be equals to men, they took the tack of disparaging men... of demonizing men and of attacking everything male.

The political correctness with which our world is now afflicted is the result of the feminist movement.

It was bad enough that a man had to negotiate a minefield everytime he spoke to his wife...
But now our entire culture has to WATCH WHAT WE SAY AND HOW WE SAY IT...
People lose their jobs for having "incorrect" opinions or feelings...


I love and prefer women who are equals... I treat them as equals and I actually think of them as equals...


I only wish they returned the favor.

 

[D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah]

Men lost absolutely NOTHING! It allowed women onto the the playing field. It did not even it up. Prior to the 1970's and the ERA women really couldn't do that much in the workforce because nobody would hire them. :duh:

It might seem strange coming from a woman but the thing that really irritates me is when women take on mens work roles and expect the same pay when they cant do the same physical work.

For example a friend of mine took on the job as fork lift driver and store-person. She is a very thin woman with previous medical injuries, and there was no way sh was going to be able to do what the job required yet because of equal rights she got the job and the men had to carry the bulk of the work for her.

In cases like this i feel sorry for men.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Just check out the use of the word "subjugation"...
coming from an American woman that is laughable...

There are women who are subjugated in this world... but American women complaining about subjugation... you should be too embarrassed to even say such a thing... cause, really, the rest of the world's women think you're spoiled rotten.


For most of human history the shape of a culture has revolved around one central fact.... women were GOING to have babies. And they had to be taken care of.

There was no truly effective method of birth control... so unless a woman wanted to be a spinster or a nun... if she wanted a life with love in it, sooner or later she was gonna end up pregnant.

Several times.

It was not MEN but biology that had women in shackles.

Babies are work...they take energy... and thru most of history women did not sit around the house... any woman not rich worked every bit as hard as their men, just to keep the kids fed.

So, I am sorry, girls, but the infamous "man's world" was invented to take care of women and children... it used to be a status symbol if your wife didn't "have" to work.

The suburbs were invented because women demanded safer environments to raise their children.
Only affluent American women can look at "leisure" as a form of subjugation.


And hey- Remember the Titanic? How many men died that night so that their women could live?
How many "subjugated" people survive their overlords when its sink or swim?

Women weren't subjugated...



And one little invention changed everything.

The pill emancipated women from the dictates of biology, and from the consequences of sexual activity.

that was 1960 for those too young to remember.


And immediately things began to change... Colleges were going Co-ed by 1965... Women were entering the workforce , and staying in the workforce in huge numbers by 1975.

Too bad everyohne's mother had spent so much energy raising a generation of men to believe that THEY were supposed to support the family...

It took a full generation before a new crop of men could be raised who understood the new order...

And the fallout...
Greater equality for women... but the huge increase in available labor DEVALUED labor.
Whereas it used to be possible for a single wage earner to support an entire family of 6, now a family of 4 pretty much requires two paychecks.


And men? we still can't choose to "stay home with the kids"... cause women, by and large, still demand that we be wage earners.


So... sorry... I don't want anyone here to think I have anything against women.
I love women. But I feel that the movement took a wrong turn and devalued everything male.

Its not your faults... you were raised to think you are always right and men always wrong. You were raised to believe you are better than we are.

I think women were done a dis-service by the groups that spearheaded the feminist movement.

You live in a world full of angry and demoralized men... who you largely and without realizing it, look down upon... and wonder why love is so hard to find.




oh, and No, men lost absolutely nothing.

Just your respect and admiration... Just the right to being treated as an equal in their own marriage. Just the right to be seen as something good and competent...
Just the right to, once in a while, be right.

No...Nothing at all...

 

[Phil Ayesho]

By the way...
just to be clear to the womenfolk where I stand... I have long been of the opinion that Margaret Sanger should be given an international monument.


Margaret Sanger was the woman who spearheaded the REAL emancipation of women... agitating for abortion rights, for access to information about reproduction and birth control... and it was she who put together the funding for the development of the birth control pill.

She understood that the only thing holding women back was the yoke of reproduction... and more than any other individual she gave women the power over their own reproductive capacity.

This one event, the birth control pill, is the single largest and most important change in human society in 7 thousand years.

Sanger was a visionary.
She had some stupid ideas, too.. but she was right about reproductive choice being the key to women living fuller and more equal lives.

BTW- she created Planned Parenthood, too.

 

[D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah]

And one little invention changed everything.

The pill emancipated women from the dictates of biology, and from the consequences of sexual activity.

True the pill did bring on major changes, but also remeber in many societies and religions it is forbidden for women to use any form of contraception or isnt fathomable to consider abortion. Women have sex and deal with the consequences. A life of motherhood and housework.

Sure here in the western world is isnt quiet as bad. But consider how many times women are told men will support htem and then months into the preganancy they are left to their own devices and forced into a life as a single mother[/quote]

oh, and No, men lost absolutely nothing.

Just your respect and admiration... Just the right to being treated as an equal in their own marriage. Just the right to be seen as something good and competent...
Just the right to, once in a while, be right.

No...Nothing at all...

So it is alright for a woman to work a 38 hour working week, come home cook your dinner, clean your house and look after your kids whilst you sit and regain your respect and admiration. You dont think it is fair that you should be asked to help maintain your own home and family?

 

[Quite Irate]

The difference is between choice and subjugation.

In the decades past, women had very little choice but to be the homemakers, the nurturers, the caregivers. It was expected, even demanded of them...ingrained into their upbringing from their youngest days.

In modern times, this has been greatly changed, I think. Women are now raised with the belief that they control their own destinies...their career paths are as wide open and varied as anyone else's. This is not to say such enlightenment is universal...as with racism, there are still pockets of our society that have refused, kicking and screaming, to be brought into the mindset of the 21st century. Still, the widespread institutional indoctrination of the subservient female has mostly been relegated to the past.

This is not to say that men have abdicated or been stripped of any rights or standing...but we have had to adapt to a female ideal that has a mind and will of her own. Plenty may choose the traditional role of the mother and homemaker, leaving the man to be the provider...but this is by choice, not by lack thereof.

You see, that's not true. The first part. Individuals make their own freedom, as far as I'm concerned. When the idiotic debate of men versus women comes up, both sides can name a zillion successful/intellectual/artistic/etcetera individuals who are both male and female. But when it comes to feminism, suddenly women are handicapped to the point of incapacitation by traditional gender roles. I say, "nuh-uh." Like I said, individuals ultimately sink or float, accomplish what they want to accomplish in life, or work the night shift for 20 years. The same goes for racism. You cannot achieve equality between the sexes when they cannot be directly matched up. Apples and oranges. It's not a zero sum game. Females have desirable and undesirable traits that men don't have, vice versa. Lifestyles are adapted to these traits. Plus, due to the nature of men, who are typically the executive-decision-maker types, women are put on a pedestal in job hiring. The idea of leveling the playing field is absurd. Ever notice the cute, sporty girl in high school who got A's in all her classes but never seemed to turn in much homework? "Like lol" grades, I call them (I just made that up right now).
And... my thought processes are slipping away. It's far too late (early) to be debating the tenets of feminism. I was going to make a point, but I can't remember what it was. Out.

 

[Quite Irate]

Addon: I've long argued (in all my years, you know) that political feminism is to be distrusted and is largely responsible for a number of unpleasant changes in the western world. I'm all for personal feminism, personal freedom, and all that jazz, but the political branch labeled "feminism" is one of the most vile, manipulative political entities that I can think of. Radicals hijacked the women's rights movement in its infancy, and it has remained in control of angry, fanatical women ever since, and for the very same reason radical conservatism remains so powerful in the U.S. today. These radicals (most of whom are the angry fat lesbian type - cue Andrea Dworkin) have done such a number on the concept of feminism that I can only sit back and marvel. Every single statement is obfuscated, twisted, skewed in some manner to hide their true intent and simultaneously appeal to women (and men) who don't know any better, and/or want to be misled. It's a shame.

Women's rights =/= Feminism

 

[D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah]

Addon: I've long argued (in all my years, you know) that political feminism is to be distrusted and is largely responsible for a number of unpleasant changes in the western world. I'm all for personal feminism, personal freedom, and all that jazz, but the political branch labeled "feminism" is one of the most vile, manipulative political entities that I can think of. Radicals hijacked the women's rights movement in its infancy, and it has remained in control of angry, fanatical women ever since, and for the very same reason radical conservatism remains so powerful in the U.S. today. These radicals (most of whom are the angry fat lesbian type - cue Andrea Dworkin) have done such a number on the concept of feminism that I can only sit back and marvel. Every single statement is obfuscated, twisted, skewed in some manner to hide their true intent and simultaneously appeal to women (and men) who don't know any better, and/or want to be misled. It's a shame.

Women's rights =/= Feminism

Very true. I think the feminist movement started out with good intentions, to equal up the playing field giving women choices, the right to work and so forth, but somewhere along the lines it became a power struggle. The so called Nazi feminists were out to get as much as they could and dominate men. And whilst with the little things such as personal hygiene and not shaving underarms and legs you'll find majority of women still do it anyway.I can say in the circle of people i know i have no "extremist' feminist friends who expect unreasonable things from their men nor do they exploit their so called equal rights as women. Men however seem to have thrown their hands up in the air and instead of claiming some of their rights back just complain about how unfairly the are treated now.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Just to clarify... I am telling you the kinds of things that men discuss among themselves... mens' complaints about the injustices in their relationships...
Not just my experience... but the things that ALL men nod along to when one of us starts griping about it...

So, please, don't shoot the messenger...

As to men leaving women pregnant and alone...
Again... number one. pick a better man to father your children.. go all weak kneed for a rebel? then don't be surprised when he rebels.
Y'know that quiet guy you wouldn't give the time of day? He probably would have stuck with you for the duration...

Oh... and don't tell me about how often women are Left holding the bag... Have you any idea how often women 'decide' to get knocked up without discussing it with the guy first? How often women take it on themselves to unilaterally commit some unsuspecting guy to 18 years of child support?

Women are just as often guilty of tricking men as are men of tricking women.

But, you do see, don't you, that that stereotype is just more evidence of how men have been cast as the villians in our society?

Maybe its the people you meet... but for every woman I have met who's man abandoned her pregnant... I know of 10 who stood by her and were involved fathers..




As to helping out...
Sure its fair to expect men to help when both parties earn a living... Not just help, do fully half...

But women don't want men to do the housework... they want men to be servants who do housework to the woman's specifications.

The trouble comes back to the always wrong part...
Whenever I did the dishes... it was always wrong... I cleaned up a mess wrong, changed a baby wrong... no matter how hard I tried... it was never good enough...

Does your husband stand over your shoulder when you cook trying to tell you that's not how to hold a pan?
Women do this quite a lot.

The women don't just want help... they want to exert control over that help.

And I also hear from a lot of men that women simply don't count the things than MEN traditionally do as part of the division of labor. Mowing the lawn don't count... shoveling snow don't count, maintaining the family car.., household repairs... none of that counts as "helping".

You want men to help out more? LET GO OF CONTROL...

Let him wash the damn dishes HIS way and stop trying to get him to make the bed YOUR way.


For men its really simple... you want control? Take responsibility with it.



And by 'treated as an equal" in his own marriage... I mean treated as if everything he does or says isn't some kind of affront, or just plain wrong.

I mean being able to feel like he can say something without his woman parsing every word LOOKING for some kind of thought crime.


Minefield... walking on eggshells... I am not kidding... you gals really really make communicating with you a chore.

For most men... it becomes easier to be in trouble for not saying anything... than for you to be misinterpreting everything we do say.



My God-daughter is now 32... she was having dinner with us the other day and telling us how she is already on the outs with all the women in her new suburban neighborhood.

They stopped inviting her when she made the observation that all they do when they get together is talk about what shits their husbands are.



I wish it weren't so... but ask around... its endemic.

American women are, by and large, mean to their men.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Addon: I've long argued (in all my years, you know) that political feminism is to be distrusted and is largely responsible for a number of unpleasant changes in the western world.

Damn intelligent commentary...

Why oh why are you in Bhutan...

Come to the US and teach.

We need this kind of clarity

 

[Quite Irate]

Very true. I think the feminist movement started out with good intentions, to equal up the playing field giving women choices, the right to work and so forth, but somewhere along the lines it became a power struggle. The so called Nazi feminists were out to get as much as they could and dominate men. And whilst with the little things such as personal hygiene and not shaving underarms and legs you'll find majority of women still do it anyway.I can say in the circle of people i know i have no "extremist' feminist friends who expect unreasonable things from their men nor do they exploit their so called equal rights as women. Men however seem to have thrown their hands up in the air and instead of claiming some of their rights back just complain about how unfairly the are treated now.

Major legacy of the Feminist Movement:

Old women may now wear pants.


It's true, I swear. Re: men complaining - some do more, but they're harassed into oblivion for it. PC bullshit works against everyone at some point in one's life.

 

[Quite Irate]

Damn intelligent commentary...

Why oh why are you in Bhutan...

Come to the US and teach.

We need this kind of clarity

I'm retired.

And I'm in Bhutan only in my mind. The rest of the time I'm in France.

 

[D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah]

It's true, I swear. Re: men complaining - some do more, but they're harassed into oblivion for it. PC bullshit works against everyone at some point in one's life.

There is a right way and a wrong way to go about everything. We women for the majority) aren't that unreasonable that we expect to much from men. If a man stands up crying about how hard he works and then has to come hoome and mow the lawn then he deserves to be bitched at, should she do it just to keep him happy and feeling like the man?

However if he comes home from work and say's i'll cook dinner if you mow the lawn.. Sounds fair right?

 

[xLx]

there may not be institutional or widespread explicit gender bias anymore, but you can come up with plenty of anecdotal and empirical evidence to support a claim that latent chauvinism is still a problem in many professions.

the glass ceiling may not be the most appropriate metaphor, but there's still something of a glass sieve (ok i'll have to work on that....) - women have to connive and conspire to advance themselves in business, for instance, in a way men don't. we're still a long way from a pure meritocracy. take academia as well......if you're a student, or ever have been, you'll be grimly aware of just how few of the books, journals and papers you've been told to read have been authored by women (unless you're doing 'feminist studies' or midwifery or something cliched like that). the female grad students i've talked to have virtually all said they're struggling to find grants, placements etc, while the males seem to find it relatively easier. the tide has turned significantly in recent years of course, but there's still considerable resistance from the 'old school'......you know.....creaky old guys who went to Cambridge back in the days when women weren't allowed in the city limits, and ceremonial gowns had penis-holes in the back, that sort of thing.

and what about politics? can anyone in the uk identify a single female frontbencher who doesn't come across as wholesale incompetent? i appreciate new labour's enthusiasm for promoting gender neutrality, i just wish they'd picked the right women.......honestly, it's a bit like watching 'Clueless' with cheaper handbags!

anyway, the solution i suppose is a simple one: wait for a lot of snotty old men to die and be replaced by people with more modern ideas............



.......or perhaps try to accelerate the process artificially? anyone?