Did feminism go to far?

D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah

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Have you thought about the fact that the gender bias pendulum has swung to the other end and hasn't had time to fall to the middle? That's what we should be aiming for. It doesn't happen overnight.

This is exactly how i see it. Previously women had it hardest, now the pendulum has swung in our favour and the men are complaining about how discriminated against they are and how hard it is on them now, just as we did. The thing is we DID something about it rather then just complain.


Also i think majority of the men seemed to have missed my whole intention of this thread. I titled it as i did because i do believe men are on the down step right now. A lot is expected of them, and it is expect with a smile and without complaint. Hence why i didnt entitle the thread 'Did feminism fail?' .

We women are having our cake and eating it to.

But all this talk of women wanting men as their slaves, BS, never will i agree with that.
 

Ethyl

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Yes, actually...
But fat lot of good it will do for me...
Or my sons.
You can't leave it to society to mold your sons' future. That's your job, as you know. If you're teaching them what love is, they'll find the right partners on their own.
On the other hand... what do you suppose CAUSES the pendulum to slow and come back the other way?
What we're discussing right now: the need for change.

But all this talk of women wanting men as their slaves, BS, never will i agree with that.
Trust and respect are at the core of each healthy relationship. The only reason some women treat men badly is because they don't respect them. Whether that's because they have issues with men or the men had issues with them is another subject entirely.

A counselor once told me that a good mate should also be something of a worthy adversary. Some were taken aback by this but I knew exactly what he meant.
 

Mr. Snakey

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There was a time when women didnt even have the right to vote. It took years of hard work to get the 19th Amendment passed in 1919. No i dont think Feminism has gone too far. The word Feminism wouldnt even exist if they were simply treated as equals.
 

midlifebear

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In answer to the original thread question: Did feminism go to far? Hell, no! We still need to get an Equal Rights Amendment passed in the USA. As for the rest of the world, women need to bear guns, machetes, and voodoo hexes to wrest their rights as human beings from male-dominated societies, and they need to do it ASAP!

Quick: Name a male-dominated society that's been peaceful, caring, and respectful of others -- any male-dominated society will do.
 

Act2_Begins_Now

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Have you thought about the fact that the gender bias pendulum has swung to the other end and hasn't had time to fall to the middle? That's what we should be aiming for. It doesn't happen overnight.

I couldn't agree more.

Was the movement necessary? Absolutely. Did it go too far? Absolutely.

Not only do you see women, who will use their sex as a platform to squawk, but you see men who all too comfortable with not taking on the 'equal' role of a man.
 

HaagenDazs

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It's not 1910 anymore. Any man who still thinks a woman's place is in the kitchen and house is an outdated ingrate who quickly needs to die.

You can't ask the question 'Did feminism go to far', without asking 'When will chauvinism STOP going too far'.

Women should have every opportunity and chance as men and every ability to exert their power, influence, etc in the modern world.

Women are capable of doing just about everything men can do and some can do it better.

At the basis of it all there needs to be a yin to the yang to complete the picture, so women do need to maintain their femininity at the end of the day, just as men should maintain their masculinity. But that shouldn't suggest that maintaining femininity would equate to weakness.

Men and women should be equal in all things. Feminine energy is just as strong as masculine energy in this universe. You ask a man to carry a baby in him for nine months and he'd probably want the thing out of him after a month. You ask a man to do half the things women are capable of doing on a natural level and he probably couldn't.

For this reason alone, women need to be treated as equals, respected as equals, and be on an equal playing field with men on all levels. Gone are the days when women were walking vaginas for man's amusement and abuse, and birthers of his children stuck in a home.
 

B_Demention

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It did go a little far, but it had to happen in order to shake up the old, deep-rooted foundations that were solely based around men, and a little tremor of girl-power sure wasn't going to do it so it had to be something big. Massive strides have been made in the 90s and 00s and I think it's cool to see women getting their just deserts and exercising their new power. We men live in a shitty time in that regard since we have to kind of pay the price for our bigoted ancestors, but this is good for the development of the human race as a whole. I'll just wait for the dust to settle before I can safely say "get me a sandwich" to anyone I'm with.
 

ucsb123

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Personally speaking, I believe that things are fairly equal. Women constitute the majority of those earning degrees in the US. Albeit a small majority, but still a majority. We live in a time where a women has the potential to become the president. A time where a women is one of the most powerful people in the world (Condi). So yeah are fairly equal, I'd say.

One could argue that the average pay for women is lower. The reason is due to the degrees obtained by women as well as the hard physical labor that men are often employed in. Women are not nearly as present as men in engineering, computer sciences, or the hard sciences (all of which represent the highest starting pay). Women are more concentrated in English, communications, sociology, (which are the lowest paying). Not too many women blue collar workers (manufacturing, logistics, mechanics). Thus, it makes sense that the average pay is lower.

As far as studies regarding pay within the same field, I personally take those studies with a grain of salt since many of them are contradictory. However, one possible explination is that men have more experience since women on the whole take time off for maternity leave. This puts men at a time advantage, thus more opportunities for advancement in pay.

Has it gone too far? Yes and no. The doctrine of how men are evil thrive in the current university form of feminism. Though this was needed in the 1950s/1960s, this is not the case now. The shock value has diminished due to the rise in equality. However, in the real world interactions are fine on the whole.

That's my two cents.
 

whatireallywant

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The men of my generation needed to be educated about women and rights and...

The women of my generation needed to be educated about women and rights.

In rural areas and in macho professions both sexes still need to experience equality.

My wife's family was and still is dysfunctional on this issue and she is still affected by her upbringing. I wanted and needed my wife to be independent, but I still had to fight my prejudices, and in many, many ways she has succeeded but it is hard to see her brought to her knees by expectations instilled in her as a little girl.

This is very true. I grew up in a rural area and that could be part of the problem I've had all my life. Fortunately, my immediate family was pretty good about this stuff. My parents exposed me to all kinds of toys growing up, not just the stuff expected of girls. And being socially isolated (my parents didn't socialize much, and we rarely had visitors), I had no idea that ALL my interests were traditionally male until I got to school!

Unfortunately, the school, and the community in general, was VERY rigid with gender roles, and I was seen as "having something wrong with me". Also, I was unable to pursue any of my interests that involved a group. The only way I could pursue interests were individual things (couldn't play any games or sports that required 2 or more players), and only at home. What's more, turns out that my extended family is more like the school/community than like my parents - and they're PREACHY about it!

In my teens, I nearly lost myself. I was trying to "fit in", and never quite did. I was no more well liked than I was before, and I was unhappy because I was denying my true interests.

As an adult, I reclaimed my interests, and while I'm still not terribly happy, it's better than it was before. And after moving to the city, I became better liked as well. However, there are some leftover ramifications of my experiences growing up. I lack many skills that most people have, because I just wasn't interested in one set, and was either forbidden or heavily discouraged from learning the other set. I am also extremely shy as a result of being met with as much hostility and bullying growing up. As a result, I have difficulty with jobs, relationships, etc. I was career oriented but lacked the skill to keep jobs. I have now grown to be more survival oriented. It's not so much a lack of ambition now, it's more a reaction to fear. I am still very much more of a "work outside of the home" person than a "stay at home" person, but my concern is that the job needs to be at an appropriate skill level so that I can keep the job and not be fired. Plus I have a lot of anxiety about my ability to keep jobs, and that makes it even more difficult. But that anxiety is the result of previous inability, so it becomes a vicious circle.

In relationships, I am still afraid that I will be met with hostility because of my views, and unfortunately, I often still am. This turned me into an extreme introvert. I do try to get out socially to do activities, but am often afraid to say anything, then I get the comment "You're so quiet!" I HATE that!!! Maybe I don't feel like saying anything at that time! Many conversations are simply things I have nothing to add to, so I just sit and listen. Too many times if I say something, it is met with hostility. Especially with regard to gender issues... Even now. So many times I just prefer to be alone so I don't have to deal with it.
 

Phil Ayesho

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Haagen Dazs and slant...

this is pandering nonsense.
More feminist agitprop parroted as if it were true.

Anyone who believes in the Male Patriarchy theory of feminism is simply unschooled.

Women's options were limited by biology, by childbirth... not by men.

Society was as it was because BOTH Men and Women had to cope with the fact of nearly all women having babies.

The women's suffrage movement did not really change anything because it failed to address this central reality. Women having the vote had almost zero effect on women's roles in society.

Only after the Birth Control Pill was developed, was it even societally possible for women to have the same KIND of lives as men.


And I especially take issue with Haagen's claim that feminine and masculine energy are "equal" and then in the next breath stating that a man could not do what a woman can do naturally.

Women were designed to carry and birth babies... sure it has its drawbacks... but I watched my ex-wife give birth to two sons and she never had so much as an aspirin... and was up and walking 10 minutes after the birth...

Women have mythologized birth because they can get away with it...

But I can tell you that, if men had to carry babies, THEY would be built for it, too.

I know you young guys feel you need to spout this propaganda to get laid... that if you don't parrot the women are "just as good if not better" line, and the "gosh darn our evil male forebears" crap then you will be made to suffer by women....

But please... don't fall for it. Don't start believing it.

For most of human history, society evolved into the form that worked best.

And once the Pill was invented, once the ground rules changed, Women got everything they wanted in ONE generation.

Why? Because women, in aggregate, dictate how men should behave if they want to get laid.

They got what the majority of women wanted BEFORE the Pill... and they got what the majority of women wanted AFTER the Pill.


They only real difference is in what they were asking for.
 

Phil Ayesho

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One could argue that the average pay for women is lower. The reason is due to the degrees obtained by women as well as the hard physical labor that men are often employed in. Women are not nearly as present as men in engineering, computer sciences, or the hard sciences (all of which represent the highest starting pay). Women are more concentrated in English, communications, sociology, (which are the lowest paying). Not too many women blue collar workers (manufacturing, logistics, mechanics). Thus, it makes sense that the average pay is lower.

While all of that factors in, the primary cause of women getting paid less is their statistical instability.

For every woman who says she is career oriented and going the distance... there are two women who say the exact same thing to potential employers... and then leave their jobs at some later date to have children.

Not JUST maternity leave... major interruptions in career paths...
1 third never come back to their career... the other third re-think their career goals and re-enter the workforce with a goal toward maximizing time with their children, rather than maximizing their utility to their employers.


When companies hire women their personnel managers know full well they only have a 30% chance that the woman they hire will match the competitive efforts of her male peers in terms of time and focus.

When male employees have a child... they actually become MORE reliable workers.
When female employees have a child... only SOME of them become more reliable workers.

It sucks that those women who DO work just as hard and just as long have their options narrowed by the women who do not...
But again... Nearly all the young women applying claim they are career oriented... there is no way for the corporation to tell which is which...

So, yes, there IS a slight bias to offering men advancement over women of a certain age ( childbearing age) because you know the corporate investment in a man is more likely to pay off thru longer service.
 

Phil Ayesho

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I couldn't agree more.

Was the movement necessary? Absolutely. Did it go too far? Absolutely.

Not only do you see women, who will use their sex as a platform to squawk, but you see men who all too comfortable with not taking on the 'equal' role of a man.

Agreed.

Far too many men have taken advantage of the fact that they are seen as incompetent by their women ( and their culture) as an excuse to ACT more incompetent and take less responsibility.

That is part of the problem of always telling a man he is doing everything wrong...
He has an excuse to give up and not do at all.

If I am not only accused... but already convicted and condemned... I might as well be guilt of the crime.


Half of what I object to in women's disparagement of men is that it actually results in weaker men.

We become what our mothers tell us we are.
 

HaagenDazs

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Haagen Dazs and slant...

this is pandering nonsense.
More feminist agitprop parroted as if it were true.

Anyone who believes in the Male Patriarchy theory of feminism is simply unschooled.

Women's options were limited by biology, by childbirth... not by men.

Society was as it was because BOTH Men and Women had to cope with the fact of nearly all women having babies.

The women's suffrage movement did not really change anything because it failed to address this central reality. Women having the vote had almost zero effect on women's roles in society.

Only after the Birth Control Pill was developed, was it even societally possible for women to have the same KIND of lives as men.


And I especially take issue with Haagen's claim that feminine and masculine energy are "equal" and then in the next breath stating that a man could not do what a woman can do naturally.

Women were designed to carry and birth babies... sure it has its drawbacks... but I watched my ex-wife give birth to two sons and she never had so much as an aspirin... and was up and walking 10 minutes after the birth...

Women have mythologized birth because they can get away with it...

But I can tell you that, if men had to carry babies, THEY would be built for it, too.

I know you young guys feel you need to spout this propaganda to get laid... that if you don't parrot the women are "just as good if not better" line, and the "gosh darn our evil male forebears" crap then you will be made to suffer by women....

But please... don't fall for it. Don't start believing it.

For most of human history, society evolved into the form that worked best.

And once the Pill was invented, once the ground rules changed, Women got everything they wanted in ONE generation.

Why? Because women, in aggregate, dictate how men should behave if they want to get laid.

They got what the majority of women wanted BEFORE the Pill... and they got what the majority of women wanted AFTER the Pill.


They only real difference is in what they were asking for.

You sir are one of the chauvinist beasts I spoke of earlier.

You believe it makes me less of a man or a man afraid for me to say what I said about male patriarchy. I don't say it out of fear of being made "to suffer by women". I say it because I'm smart enough to know what happened historically, wise enough to know it was REALLY fucked up, and enlightened enough to know that the mistakes of the past don't need to continue today.

Just because human history evolved into the form that worked best at that time...DOESN'T MAKE THAT FORM RIGHT. It just means that barbaric humanity was still in stages of development, and didn't understand the proper way of existence, and so engaged in what it's limited mind could understand, no matter how primitive, barbaric, or evil it could be.

What does a pill have to do with anything??? What the fuck makes you think women wanted to be practical SLAVES to their men before the pill. What the hell makes you think that just because women back then couldn't control child birth, they were anymore content to sit in a house, raise children, be a slave to a man, be ruled over, and in some cases abused and treated like cattle/livestock by men. Most times, most women who were in a position to tell their story, whether by film in the 1900's, or by literature in the pre-1900's, expressed a quiet and sad resignation to the roles forced on them by the dominant, barbaric male.

LIKE I SAID, men and women are equal. They need to be promoted as equal. This is not feminist antiprop, it's not anything but the truth. And they should have had the freedoms, rights, and equality they have now since the dawn of time. But man is such a barbaric creature, it's amazing how long it's taking us to achieve true enlightenment.

What you mean I'm promoting feminist agitprop as true. Moron I'm a dude. I have a penis. I play football in college. If anyone isn't a feminist...it me.

It is you who is unschooled. And the only thing worse than a man who is unschooled, is a man who would go around speaking with cold determination his lies.

I'm not promoting anything but truth.

Men and woman are equal, and that's the bottom line.

And yes I said women can do things men can't do in relation to childbirth. Absolutely. LMFAO @ men could carry babies well. WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT SHOULD-A, COULD-A, WOULD-A's. We're talking about REALITY!!! And let's see you sit down with a child inside you for nine months. Could you do it. ABSOLUTELY NOT. And yea...DUH...we know you're not naturally built for it. But does that change the bottom line that you can't? NO IT DOESN'T. You can't. You aren't built for it. And it's something you can't do. And it requires a strength that you can't muster and natural abilities you don't possess. And that's the end.

LMFAO @ women have mythologized childbirth. THEY CREATE A NEW HUMAN BEING INSIDE THEM IN LESS THAN A YEAR'S TIME, CARRY IT, SUPPORT IT, AND RELEASE IT AND IT DEVELOPS INTO A NEW, FULLY FUNCTIONAL HUMAN BEING...THEY EVEN CREATE MEN!!!! *Gasp* THE VERY MEN WHO YOU THINK ARE SO MUCH HIGHER...

...If that isn't worth to be mythologized, then I don't know what is. What would you have mythologized? If the fact that a woman can create a new life, spirit, and being isn't worthy of mythologization to you, then your mythologies, dear sir, are quite worthless to me.


And I was hoping that the fact that there are things men can do than women can't should have been obvious. I didn't think I needed to state that if I was pushing equality...but I guess some things aren't obvious even when they're shining as bright as the sun through a telescope. Or perhaps too much retinal burn has blinded you. Meh...

The Male Patriarchal society is EXACTLY why women suffered roles of subservience. Because men thought they were greater than women. They thought since there were the dominant gender, that they should rule over women. They thought women were their slaves. To create their babies and receive their orgasms. Just a walking vagina, house cleaner, and baby maker. We can even look at the movies from before 1940. Read books from a century ago and before even. And we can CLEARLY see that women were oppressed in a subservient role TO men, BY men, and were denied right BY men, and knocked down a peg BY MEN. If that isn't Male Patriarchy...then I don't know what is.

All this however is irrelevant at the end of the day. What is the bottom line is this:

Men and women need to be equal.

Men should be able to sit at home, raise the kids, take care of the house, just as woman should.

And women should be able to go get power jobs, run for office, lead, take control of, and have power just as well as men should.

THIS IS NOT THE AGE OF LUCY AND RICKY RICARDO. This is the age of Oprah Winfrey. And hell, even in the age of Lucy and Ricky, Lucille Ball was the real powerhouse of that relationships. RKO anybody??? Last time I checked, at the height of her career she was sitting at the head of the table of her company, business, and television show...even while she was FORCED by male patriarchal society to act like a bumbling idiot whining crying housewife, who good for nothing but being a cum-receptacle to Ricky, having his babies, and cleaning his house while he came home and talked down to her and put her in her role. But realistically, we know who wore the pants in that relationship. And historically many women have acted as a cornerstone for men, even while being forced to maintain the outward illusion of their role.

This is not the age where a woman is subservient to a man. This is not the age where a woman is a slave to a man and has no rights. Humankind, very slowly, is becoming an enlightened species. And letting go of the barbaric ideals like racism, sexism, classism and all those other bullshit ism's people like you would like to see in power.

It's a done deal. Feminism hasn't gone to far. It went just as far as needed to go in order to put women where they need to be: ON THE SAME LEVEL AS A MAN.

As I said, you can't have a full circle, if the yin is larger than the yang. The circle is out of balance then. This is a universe of balance, control, and harmony.

If you can't see balance, and harmony, there's something wrong with you.

I'm not promoting feminist anything. I'm promoting enlightenment.

This isn't the 40's dude. Let it go.
 

Ethyl

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Half of what I object to in women's disparagement of men is that it actually results in weaker men.
Is that why you advocate breaking up marriages to find a partner?
We become what our mothers tell us we are.
No, we become what we decide to be. If you became what your mother said you'd be, that's your fault. There is a statute of limitations on how long you can go around blaming your parents for how your life turns out.

I liked the part in the sixties when they ditched their bras and decided they should be just as promiscuous as men. That was about it for me.:tongue:

See, you get it. I knew you would. :tongue:
 

whatireallywant

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You sir are one of the chauvinist beasts I spoke of earlier.

You believe it makes me less of a man or a man afraid for me to say what I said about male patriarchy. I don't say it out of fear of being made "to suffer by women". I say it because I'm smart enough to know what happened historically, wise enough to know it was REALLY fucked up, and enlightened enough to know that the mistakes of the past don't need to continue today.

Just because human history evolved into the form that worked best at that time...DOESN'T MAKE THAT FORM RIGHT. It just means that barbaric humanity was still in stages of development, and didn't understand the proper way of existence, and so engaged in what it's limited mind could understand, no matter how primitive, barbaric, or evil it could be.

What does a pill have to do with anything??? What the fuck makes you think women wanted to be practical SLAVES to their men before the pill. What the hell makes you think that just because women back then couldn't control child birth, they were anymore content to sit in a house, raise children, be a slave to a man, be ruled over, and in some cases abused and treated like cattle/livestock by men. Most times, most women who were in a position to tell their story, whether by film in the 1900's, or by literature in the pre-1900's, expressed a quiet and sad resignation to the roles forced on them by the dominant, barbaric male.

LIKE I SAID, men and women are equal. They need to be promoted as equal. This is not feminist antiprop, it's not anything but the truth. And they should have had the freedoms, rights, and equality they have now since the dawn of time. But man is such a barbaric creature, it's amazing how long it's taking us to achieve true enlightenment.

What you mean I'm promoting feminist agitprop as true. Moron I'm a dude. I have a penis. I play football in college. If anyone isn't a feminist...it me.

It is you who is unschooled. And the only thing worse than a man who is unschooled, is a man who would go around speaking with cold determination his lies.

I'm not promoting anything but truth.

Men and woman are equal, and that's the bottom line.

And yes I said women can do things men can't do in relation to childbirth. Absolutely. LMFAO @ men could carry babies well. WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT SHOULD-A, COULD-A, WOULD-A's. We're talking about REALITY!!! And let's see you sit down with a child inside you for nine months. Could you do it. ABSOLUTELY NOT. And yea...DUH...we know you're not naturally built for it. But does that change the bottom line that you can't? NO IT DOESN'T. You can't. You aren't built for it. And it's something you can't do. And it requires a strength that you can't muster and natural abilities you don't possess. And that's the end.

LMFAO @ women have mythologized childbirth. THEY CREATE A NEW HUMAN BEING INSIDE THEM IN LESS THAN A YEAR'S TIME, CARRY IT, SUPPORT IT, AND RELEASE IT AND IT DEVELOPS INTO A NEW, FULLY FUNCTIONAL HUMAN BEING...THEY EVEN CREATE MEN!!!! *Gasp* THE VERY MEN WHO YOU THINK ARE SO MUCH HIGHER...

...If that isn't worth to be mythologized, then I don't know what is. What would you have mythologized? If the fact that a woman can create a new life, spirit, and being isn't worthy of mythologization to you, then your mythologies, dear sir, are quite worthless to me.

And I was hoping that the fact that there are things men can do than women can't should have been obvious. I didn't think I needed to state that if I was pushing equality...but I guess some things aren't obvious even when they're shining as bright as the sun through a telescope. Or perhaps too much retinal burn has blinded you. Meh...

The Male Patriarchal society is EXACTLY why women suffered roles of subservience. Because men thought they were greater than women. They thought since there were the dominant gender, that they should rule over women. They thought women were their slaves. To create their babies and receive their orgasms. Just a walking vagina, house cleaner, and baby maker. We can even look at the movies from before 1940. Read books from a century ago and before even. And we can CLEARLY see that women were oppressed in a subservient role TO men, BY men, and were denied right BY men, and knocked down a peg BY MEN. If that isn't Male Patriarchy...then I don't know what is.

All this however is irrelevant at the end of the day. What is the bottom line is this:

Men and women need to be equal.

Men should be able to sit at home, raise the kids, take care of the house, just as woman should.

And women should be able to go get power jobs, run for office, lead, take control of, and have power just as well as men should.

THIS IS NOT THE AGE OF LUCY AND RICKY RICARDO. This is the age of Oprah Winfrey. And hell, even in the age of Lucy and Ricky, Lucille Ball was the real powerhouse of that relationships. RKO anybody??? Last time I checked, at the height of her career she was sitting at the head of the table of her company, business, and television show...even while she was FORCED by male patriarchal society to act like a bumbling idiot whining crying housewife, who good for nothing but being a cum-receptacle to Ricky, having his babies, and cleaning his house while he came home and talked down to her and put her in her role. But realistically, we know who wore the pants in that relationship. And historically many women have acted as a cornerstone for men, even while being forced to maintain the outward illusion of their role.

This is not the age where a woman is subservient to a man. This is not the age where a woman is a slave to a man and has no rights. Humankind, very slowly, is becoming an enlightened species. And letting go of the barbaric ideals like racism, sexism, classism and all those other bullshit ism's people like you would like to see in power.

It's a done deal. Feminism hasn't gone to far. It went just as far as needed to go in order to put women where they need to be: ON THE SAME LEVEL AS A MAN.

As I said, you can't have a full circle, if the yin is larger than the yang. The circle is out of balance then. This is a universe of balance, control, and harmony.

If you can't see balance, and harmony, there's something wrong with you.

I'm not promoting feminist anything. I'm promoting enlightenment.

This isn't the 40's dude. Let it go.

I think I'm in love.