Did I discriminate?

dolf250

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I’m really not sure where to put this topic. I really do not mean to offend anybody, but due to another thread all of my memories about working in a bar are flooding me. Being as this board has a fairly diverse group of people with a fairly high percentage of gay men I thought I would throw out one of my experiences and see what comes back. I have been wondering for quite awhile if I what I did was wrong from other peoples perspective.

I bounced for quite some time in a small mining town in a fairly rough bar. One night a customer got pretty loaded early while it was still quiet, so I was going to leave him have his fun until it got crowded and he became a nescience bumping into others. He kept going into the bathrooms. I would follow him in to see if he was sick or snorting coke (the drug of choice in that town.) He wasn’t and he would always leave the bathroom as soon as I entered. This went on for ½ an hour. During that time one guy came up to me and told me this fellow was hitting on him. This is not really normal for a bar like that one, but I figured the guy who was reporting it maybe just did not like this other fellow so I just kept watching him. About ten minutes later another guy came up to me and told me that the fellow had asked him in the bathroom if he wanted a blow job. (I suddenly realized why this guy was spending half his night in the bathrooms.) The guy said that he thought he would tell me because though he just refused he (rightly) figured most other guys who frequented that bar would probably take a round out of the fellow for the suggestion.

I asked him to leave and told him that he was more than welcome to come back the next night. (just giving him the reason that he was too drunk, which he was.) I justified it to myself that it was as much for his safety as anything.

I would not do anything different than I did, but I am interested in the opinions of others who have different life experiences than I. Was it handled properly? Should I have left it? After all how many times each night in a bar do men make unwanted advances toward unreceptive women? And I sure as hell never threw all of them out- only the overly aggressive ones who couldn’t understand NO. And this fellow would take and accept “no” and just move on. Though I never noticed it I was told that there was a fairly high percentage of gay men in that town so is it right that his advances were the catalyst for my asking him to leave even if it was for his own safety and to prevent an inevitable fight?
 

jonb

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Well, there's a HUGE difference between throwing gay guys out and throwing guys who give blowjobs in the bathroom out.
 

husky14620

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Originally posted by dolf250@Apr 15 2005, 05:59 AM

I asked him to leave and told him that he was more than welcome to come back the next night. (just giving him the reason that he was too drunk, which he was.) I justified it to myself that it was as much for his safety as anything.

I would not do anything different than I did, but I am interested in the opinions of others who have different life experiences than I. Was it handled properly? Should I have left it? After all how many times each night in a bar do men make unwanted advances toward unreceptive women? And I sure as hell never threw all of them out- only the overly aggressive ones who couldn’t understand NO. And this fellow would take and accept “no” and just move on. Though I never noticed it I was told that there was a fairly high percentage of gay men in that town so is it right that his advances were the catalyst for my asking him to leave even if it was for his own safety and to prevent an inevitable fight?
[post=300779]Quoted post[/post]​


You shouldn't have thought twice about it. In most jurisdictions, what he was doing what unlawful. Mostly because of the how and where of his solicitation, but in some places, even the solicitation itself. The liquor license of the establishment was jeopardized by his behavior. You had no other choice. Too bad you didn't think of it that way at the time, but you still handled it with more grace and tact than most bouncers would have.

M.
 

BobLeeSwagger

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It was for his own protection, really. In any non-gay bar, that would likely get him beat up. (Not that all the straight guys would want to, but in a crowded bar at least one person probably would, especially after drinking.) There are unofficial places where that kind of solicitation is considered acceptable, and a straight bar isn't one of them. You did fine.
 

madame_zora

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You were well within your rights to have him leave just for being disorderly. If he was hitting un women in an unwanted manner, he'd be out, so by kicking him out for hitting on men you were treating him equal and fair. No problem there at all.
 

dolf250

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Well, thanks to all of you for the replies. I had expected that perhaps there would be a little more disagreement. I thought I would ask, as at one point in my life I would have been what was considered homophobic. I have had one friend that I know was gay and he moved to Toronto quite some time ago; so for any issues I no longer have a sounding board. Given how I thought in the past I find it difficult to just trust my own judgment sometimes. Husky and Aloofman, I was sort of thinking that it was an inappropriate place to hit on men but was not really sure if it was handled well. I would suppose that there were men who hooked up with other men there, but they probably spent some time looking and then chatting with the other to be a little more sure of the outcome.

Zora, you are right, while I would not have thrown out every guy for hitting on a girl I had thrown out the overly aggressive ones (The line “hey baby, want to suck my cock” is not an acceptable opening line and I had tossed a fellow out for it. I found it quite amusing at the time, actually.)

Jonb, Of course you are right that there is a difference between tossing gays and tossing guys who give BJ’s in the bathroom, but I was wondering what I would have done if he was just working his way around the room politely hitting on various men. Though I think that most people when sober would not do so and I know I would have just talked to him first, what if he continued? Would it be justifiable discrimination to toss him? Does such a thing exist?

Anyhow, thanks again for all of your thoughtful replies.
 

dickbulge

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Originally posted by husky14620+Apr 15 2005, 07:29 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(husky14620 &#064; Apr 15 2005, 07:29 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-dolf250@Apr 15 2005, 05:59 AM

I asked him to leave and told him that he was more than welcome to come back the next night. (just giving him the reason that he was too drunk, which he was.)  I justified it to myself that it was as much for his safety as anything.

I would not do anything different than I did, but I am interested in the opinions of others who have different life experiences than I.  Was it handled properly?  Should I have left it?  After all how many times each night in a bar do men make unwanted advances toward unreceptive women?  And I sure as hell never threw all of them out- only the overly aggressive ones who couldn’t understand NO.  And this fellow would take and accept “no” and just move on. Though I never noticed it I was told that there was a fairly high percentage of gay men in that town so is it right that his advances were the catalyst for my asking him to leave even if it was for his own safety and to prevent an inevitable fight?
[post=300779]Quoted post[/post]​


You shouldn&#39;t have thought twice about it. In most jurisdictions, what he was doing what unlawful. Mostly because of the how and where of his solicitation, but in some places, even the solicitation itself. The liquor license of the establishment was jeopardized by his behavior. You had no other choice. Too bad you didn&#39;t think of it that way at the time, but you still handled it with more grace and tact than most bouncers would have.

M.
[post=300968]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]

Unlawful? When did they repeal the 1st amendment? (well Dolf is in Canada but they have a simular right to free speech) Doing the act in public, sure, but just asking? Yes the act its self is still on the books in some places (like Utah but not N.Y. BTW) but no cop is going to arrest some one for "words". As for the liquor license, letting a guy get out of control drunk or not stopping potential fights would jeopardize it but even the tight-asses who control liquor in Utah would have touble demonizing "talk" between customers.

Dolf did the right thing here by stopping potential trouble and he did it in a very sensitive and non-judging way since I suspect the perpetrator may deny he&#39;s gay when sober. In a perfect world Dolf would just consider if asking for sex was wrong in a gender nuetral way and that is the heart of his dilemma. This touches on the delicate cultural differences between male-female, and male-male inter-actions and in that place and time the potential for a fight was obvious. On the other hand, if he was mostly sober and just trying to politely meet some trade, (men who accept sex from guys but don&#39;t reciprocate) it would be less clear, morally, whether to throw him out. Dolf would just have judge the potential for trouble. Every situation is different.
 

B_DoubleMeatWhopper

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Even though I am gay, I don&#39;t appreciate being accosted in a restroom ... especially for oral sex on the premises. I don&#39;t go for that even in a gay bar, let alone a straight bar. Dolf, you did your job, and you dit it just fine. Keep it up.
 

lokican

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I agree that you were doing your job and you did it well. The guy wa smaking another client uncomfortable and you took care of it, so good for you. BTW off topic quesiton but as a bouncer how often do you get physical with some of the "unruly" clients?
 

KinkGuy

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You acted properly by preventing what could have become a very ugly situation. Even though you were dealing with a drunk, I hope you handled it with a certain amount of diplomacy. His actions were certainly wrong, especially considering the venue. In fact, you most likely kept the guy from getting his face beaten in.
 

dolf250

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Dickbulge- You seem to have hit on exactly what I was trying to ask, and I guess I am a little clearer on the answer now.

DMW and Kinkguy- I finally see that the restroom is not the place for that and if you were to have a guy in the ladies restroom soliciting for sex I would have tossed him as well. To answer the question, I did it with as much diplomacy as I could. I told him that he had consumed too much (which was true) and that though I was asking him to leave that night he was more than welcome back the next night. I told all of the people who I had asked to leave for being too drunk that they were welcome back. That is what happens at bars; people drink, people get drunk. So long as a person does not argue or throw a punch when I request that they leave for the night I have no problem with them coming in night after night and drinking themselves silly (O.K. I feel sorry for them as they are obviously alcoholics, but they are welcome to do it.)

Lokican- The bar in the city was sort of upscale and I had VERY few fights there. As I mentioned the other was a fairly rough bar, but fortunately being a fairly small town we had only a handful of fights involving weapons. At that bar I would work usually 3 nights each week and ended up in 1-6 physical altercations. Out of those most of the people who I had to physically remove I did so by sort of “choking them out.” Depending on how easy the guy went out you could usually wrap an arm around their necks, grab an arm and pull them backward. If they were actively fighting with another doorman you could usually get behind them and often you would have to restrain them with a little more force. If there were a couple of doormen around you could usually just each grab an arm and drag them out. And finally the occasional person was brought out with a doorman on each limb as he continued kicking and screaming.

After a couple of years there I think that I only actually “hit” a customer once and I missed the door with a couple who kept fighting. Though it probably seems like some of these would be unnecessary they were not. My nickname was “smiley.” This came from my never loosing my smile. I would ask someone to leave for whatever reason and would keep smiling as they told to to go *%#** myself, they were not leaving. I would ask again then would lightly try to guide them toward the door (usually put a hand behind their back and guide them foreword.) I would always give them a minute to collect their stuff, make arrangements with their friends and usually finish their drink on the way out. Only if they still refused (or more likely shoved me or tried for a punch) would I become a little more assertive. Most of the bouncers at that bar were far more physical than I. I have been shy my whole life and it was truly an odd experience.
 

jonb

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Originally posted by DoubleMeatWhopper@Apr 16 2005, 11:36 AM
Even though I am gay, I don&#39;t appreciate being accosted in a restroom ... especially for oral sex on the premises. I don&#39;t go for that even in a gay bar, let alone a straight bar. Dolf, you did your job, and you dit it just fine. Keep it up.
[post=301155]Quoted post[/post]​
Well, if nothing else, it&#39;s the bathroom. Unless someone has a scat fetish, that&#39;s not sexy.
 

madame_zora

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Way cool for a self-proclaimed redneck&#33; I&#39;m going to like having you around, Dolf, but you may lose some of your redneck stripes if you keep that up. And asking for feedback to gain insight? That&#39;s sure to be a violation of some sort.
 

dolf250

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Well, thanks- By the way, I love your new avatar.

What you see is the result of attending weekly meetings of rednecks anonymous for nearly a decade.

“Hi, my name is Danny and I’m a recovering redneck…”
 

MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK

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You did nothing wrong there, Dolf. The man was soliciting oral sex to anyone who entered the restroom, and that falls under indecent behavior, and possibly prostitution. however, if this bozo returns, I&#39;d keep a mindful eye on him.

By the way, MZ&#39;s got a point; you keep this up, and you may very well be less known as a redneck here.
 

madame_zora

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Originally posted by dolf250@Apr 20 2005, 08:30 AM
Well, thanks- By the way, I love your new avatar.

What you see is the result of attending weekly meetings of rednecks anonymous for nearly a decade.

“Hi, my name is Danny and I’m a recovering redneck…”
[post=302454]Quoted post[/post]​



Awesome&#33; Now if only those meetings would catch on in Washington. You really cracked me up with this one, Dolf.
 

MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK

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You kidding there, MZ? :wow: You&#39;d empty out The White House, Congress, and almost half of the senate committee in one meeting&#33; There&#39;d be so much red in there you&#39;d think everyone either had high bp, or needed sunblock&#33;&#33; :D