Did Jesus really die on the cross?

Big en

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:biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1: I think is better to release the thread right now . By the time easter comes i will become a huge thread . Threads are better when many people give their opinions.


OK but please don't follow it with 'Do you think Mary wore panites to the crucifixion?' Going to hell me :saevilw::salook::firedevil::scool:
 

ruperty

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He NEVER existed. Christianity as well as the other major religions are really based on Sun worship and astrology. The SON of God is really the SUN god. check out this movie that explains this in detail and shows the evolution of religion. It is astounding. Zeitgeist - The Movie, 2007

dude, you haven't read the thread! i posted the link to zeitgeist earlier! kudos on the mention though. it's a great film. i think it's naive to say "he NEVER existed" just as it is to say "he DID exist". we'll never know the truth, so we can not say yay or nay.
 

Freddie53

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AS was stated earlier, there is a serious thread about this topic which can be accessed easily if you want to raad it.

I taught social studies. This is what enough historians believe that it is the version printed in our public school text books.

Historians accept the idea or fact that there was a historical Jesus who lived in the time period of the Bible. Most historians agree that the events as told in the Bible are the same events that Christians actually believed. Parts of the Bible were written decades after the birth and Christian rituals were instituted.

Most history books will state that Christians in general believe the biblical version of what happened. Public school history books make it clear that those events are what Christians believe and not accepted by non-Christians.

In short, Jesus is accepted as a historical figure who did go around Judea and preach to followers. The biblical story is about faith and whether a person wants to believe the story or not. Obviously traditional Christians believe the story. Most non Christians don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus.

We can discuss this if people wish as long as the LPSG is up and running.

We will always end up with "belief and faith" or "it is a hoax" when it comes to the idea of a virgin birth and a person coming back to life after being dead three days.


I don't see historians or scientists coming up with new information on the subject. I could of course be wrong.
 

Jimbo

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dude, you haven't read the thread! i posted the link to zeitgeist earlier! kudos on the mention though. it's a great film. i think it's naive to say "he NEVER existed" just as it is to say "he DID exist". we'll never know the truth, so we can not say yay or nay.

Yes i admit to not reading the entire thread, sorry. However, here is ANOTHER work that traces the Origins or Christianity based on actual historical documentation that was researched over two decades. It is a book called "The Historical Origin or Christianity" here is a link to that: Amazon.com: The Historical Origin of Christianity: Books: Walter Williams

I used to be Catholic (handed down from my parents) then became Pentacostal, then I read this book and related information and "got it" so i now connect directly to the "source" (God, Universe, etc.) without the interference and distractions of religious "dogma".
 

B_ScaredLittleBoy

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Father Christmas is a matter of faith and whether a person wants to believe the story or not.

Are you saying if I believe in Father Christmas (or if you believe in God) he will exist?

With my limited knowledge of history, I know every civilisation has had some kind of creation story, religion and associated gods. The vast, vast majority of those are held to be imagined. Statistically there must have been thousands or millions of gods through the ages. Is it likely that out of all those, this 'God' one is real? Computer says no!

As much as you believe in God or I believe in Father Christmas (<3) if they don't exist, thinking happy thoughts won't make them exist. I wish you religious peeps would find something else to invest your time and minds in. You don't need religion, religion needs you! For da monies.
 

BigDuder

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What the hell does that have anything to do with it? I disbelieved the bible and the church I was forced to attend before I started listening to Manson.... clever, close but no cigar man.


hey, im on your side. i just thought it was funny to see your post followed by that signature. to be serious though, manson is horrible musically.
 

B_tallbig

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Father Christmas is a matter of faith and whether a person wants to believe the story or not.

Are you saying if I believe in Father Christmas (or if you believe in God) he will exist?

With my limited knowledge of history, I know every civilisation has had some kind of creation story, religion and associated gods. The vast, vast majority of those are held to be imagined. Statistically there must have been thousands or millions of gods through the ages. Is it likely that out of all those, this 'God' one is real? Computer says no!

As much as you believe in God or I believe in Father Christmas (<3) if they don't exist, thinking happy thoughts won't make them exist. I wish you religious peeps would find something else to invest your time and minds in. You don't need religion, religion needs you! For da monies.

I understand your point and i agree 100%

It is more complicated because we can deny things than exist and of course we can believe in things that doesnt exit.
 

drumstyck

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OmGZ i liek totally saw this video on teh YouTube, it cOmpletEly opeNed mY eyeZ to the vasst rite-winG conzpiRacy taht all u brainwahsed Xtians fell for lolololz!!!1!!1!!one!!11!!!1!!


reading "The Da Vinci Code" does not make you a theological scholar. Repeating all the crap you see online does not make an authority. Yes, i realize that the pro-religion people are just citing & repeating the things they've been taught basically since birth, so its just one view against another. No one is gonna be reading a thread on this site & suddenly go "wait, now it all makes sense! jesus was awesome, yay god!" nor is anyone gonna go "wow, i never thought of it that way, i wasted my entire life by devoting it to be a good catholic" or whatever


with that out of the way, i was born into a fairly religious family. my dad did not care at all, but my grandparents on that side were hugely religious. my grandparents on mom's side were hugely religious, my mom is as well. im kinda split...i believe there's some sort of god, but i dont necessarily believe in the roman catholic church i was raised in. church as a concept usually doesnt sit well with me (nor does temple or mosque or any sort of organized money-raiser)...i dont buy the fact that God will get pissed if you dont sit in a certain building for a certain amount of time every week.
how does that affect my views on jesus? i believe he existed. there was a guy walking around the desert, spreading some radical ideas about peace & love & being good to eachother, developing a following of like-minded people, and pissing off the authorities...eventually the authorities said "we gotta end this" and they killed him...did he die on the cross? i dunno, i wasnt there. none of us were. eyewitnesses can tell two totally different stories about a car accident they witnessed 10 minutes ago. so stop being so fucking adamant in your positions that you wont even listen to an opposing viewpoint.
 

Boobalaa

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One of my favorite pastimes is reading about Biblical history and controversy..Besides the Dan brown books, "Holy Blood-Holy Grail" is great and the sequel, "The Messianic Prophecies" by the same authors starts out alright and then gets alittle wild about halfway thru mirroring "The protocols of the elders of Zion" ideas..
Here's a cool site link about the Holy Grail stuff
 

tripod

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it's not something religious people want to hear, but the story of jesus' birth and his crucifixion MAY BE based on ancient Egyptian stories of their sun god. (keeping it simple here) 'Jesus' is actually the Sun, 'the cross' is a constellation - by 'he died on the cross and rose after 3 days' the sun stopped rising for 3 days underneath the cross constellation and then began to rise further (as we know the sun does every year). There's a similar story behind the whole nativity story. almost every religion in the world is based on astrological events, as was the Egyptian Horus. though, this is just theory, just as the bible is.

VERY interesting point. You will see elements of Jesus Christ in many religions, since most of them have a messianic component to their "myth".

I am particularly interested in Zoroastrianism's influence on Christianity and Judaism. The exile in Babylon transformed Judaism... giving it a more complete conception of the afterlife and the concepts of resurrection and reward or punishment in a last judgement (obviously the Egyptians have a comparable system of judgement in the afterlife, but the Jews were actually in Babylon when writing the bible)

Zoroastrianism predicted the coming of a "messiah" (Saoshant), who would be born of a virgin, and who would lead humanity in the final battle against Evil. Jewish Messianism incorporated these conceptions with their pre-existing expectations of a Davidic King who would redeem the Jewish nation from foreign oppression.

The story of the Magi, resembles an earlier story of the Magi who looked for a star foretelling the birth of a Savior, in this case Mithras. The Magi were allegedly not kings, but Zoroastrian astrologers, and the birthday of Mithras on December 25th was deliberately borrowed by the Church to be that of their Christ, whose actual date of birth is undocumented and unknown. Mithras was also said to be born out of a rock, which bears an uncanny resemblance to the resurrection of Jesus as well. His three days spent in the "grave" may have well been borrowed from the Zoroastrian belief that the soul remains in the body for three days before departing.

Jesus was also a messiah in the strict mold of the Zoroastrian belief, he was a world savior rather than a national messiah for the Jews. Jesus did not affect a triumph over evil, rather, that would be reserved for a "second coming".

Jesus' temptation in the desert may have been borrowed, since Zarathustra
experienced a VERY similar event. The principal demon (Ahriman) promised Zarathustra earthly power if he would forsake the worship of the One Supreme God.

Jesus is in my opinion, a composite of many ancient religion's messianic prophecies. That doesn't mean that he didn't exist or isn't the son of God... those are mysteries that force the power of faith on all of us pathetic monkeys whose rational minds are not powerful enough to guide us on the "right path" during our stay on this rock.
 

ledroit

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duder, the testimonium flavium is a well known forgery and a stupid one.

The other reference probably isn't.

But would you argue the epics of homer or gilgamesh were forgeries simply because they were transmitted orally over long periods?
 

B_Think_Kink

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hey, im on your side. i just thought it was funny to see your post followed by that signature. to be serious though, manson is horrible musically.
Don't take it seriously, I'm on your side... but fuck you ;) :p .
I find his music very attractive because I believe his cause to be true. Shock music, it's twisted I know... but the lyrics are fucking clever. I've never been so astounded by how one person is able to piss off the PC and religious world sooooo easily. There is nothing more awesome to me.... and I like the freakish type.
 

BigDuder

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duder, the testimonium flavium is a well known forgery and a stupid one.

The other reference probably isn't.

But would you argue the epics of homer or gilgamesh were forgeries simply because they were transmitted orally over long periods?


no, but i don't accept them as detailing actual historical events either.
 

BigDuder

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Don't take it seriously, I'm on your side... but fuck you ;) :p .
I find his music very attractive because I believe his cause to be true. Shock music, it's twisted I know... but the lyrics are fucking clever. I've never been so astounded by how one person is able to piss off the PC and religious world sooooo easily. There is nothing more awesome to me.... and I like the freakish type.


i think we got off on the wrong foot, so let's try again. hi, i'm bigduder.