A lot of straight men have had experiences with men. They are still straight. I can sort of see his point. It's very easy for people to say 'how do you know if you're x if you haven't tried y' becoming 'if you have, maybe you just didn't try hard enough.' People who think like that tend to focus on men who are attracted to men who occasionally are with women as 'proof' that it can be changed (while ignoring straight men and women who experiment as 'proof' they can change)
Did you "choose" to be gay?
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A lot of straight men have had experiences with men. They are still straight. I can sort of see his point. It's very easy for people to say 'how do you know if you're x if you haven't tried y' becoming 'if you have, maybe you just didn't try hard enough.' People who think like that tend to focus on men who are attracted to men who occasionally are with women as 'proof' that it can be changed (while ignoring straight men and women who experiment as 'proof' they can change)
Smaccoms
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It's not about proving anything.to anyone. Is your sexuality not real until everyone around you confirms it to be? I don't understand...besides, it's not like there's some unwritten rule saying that your sexuality isn't real if you're not strictly straight or gay.
Nobody is claiming bisexuality doesn't exist. We are saying that it's not possible to change your sexual orientation.
Yes, that's my point. A lot of gay men have had experiences with women. They are still gay.
His point is that if you've had experiences with women you can't be gay and have no right to call yourself gay.
sizehungry
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Though i identify as bi , i actually did decide that i loved the sensation of being fucked by men . Particularly hung men . My first "real " experience , was brutal , and painful , but i loved the mix of sensations so much , that within days , i was knocking on his door , asking for more . He was happy to oblige , and my introduction to rough sex continued for quite some time . I love what he used to do to me , and i like it that way now . Choice ,? mine , mine and mine .
Anton, I agree with most all you say about how totally hypocritical most anti-gay people are, especially the political and religious leaders. So don’t take what I am about to say as a putdown in anyway. The more we understand what is going on the better we can deal with it.
First, if we are going to see an end to anti-gay (or LGBTI) attitudes we need to have individuals with these attitudes change in their thinking. Coercion doesn’t seem to work (re your post 279).
As case in point, just consider what attempted coercion has done to the gay population. It just makes us more determined to change “the system”. I don’t have any great problem with anti-gay activist being removed from power or corrected in public view but I am not sure if that significantly benefits individual feelings.
There has been considerable research into changing people attitudes in areas like this and it all comes down to an individual having a personal “emotional” experience. There may be some value in books and “educational” sessions, but gay antagonist won’t be impacted until they encounter a personal life altering condition that causes them to see gay in a different way. Perhaps it comes in the acceptance of a gay child or friend. Who can say.
As a result, it is reasonable to understand that changes will come gradually as individual people change.
Also, at post 292 you note:
It's interesting that I've never heard/read of any anti-gay churches explaining how they reconcile "God doesn't make junk" with "being gay* is a sin".
The fact is that most Christian churches, especially anti-gay churches, don’t adhere to the idea that “God doesn’t make junk”. This is a pop culture saying, just like “god helps those who help themselves.” It is not part of scripture.
Underlying most Christian theology is the concept of “total depravity”. Basically it means that people will screw up just about anything they touch. Hence people need divine direction or being saved from themselves.
The problem is that anti-gay churches (and many other groups) decide they want to speak for God so they set about defining what they see as depravity.
It is almost humorous to note that the real depravity is their self-assumed authority to speak on Gods behalf. After all (as you note in post 279) it’s this kind of behavior that humanity needs to be saved from.
"They don't really eliminate their sense of superiority and feeling of power over gay people on those more "sophisticated" forms of homophobia."
Thumbs up on your thinking!
Barberseville
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I really don't believe you can choose who provides you sexual attraction. It's something carnal, chemical, raw and unfiltered; the opposite of a rational choice. There are some people who simply get me hard without trying. They turn my head and turn me on without any conscious decision making. You don't get to choose your sexual preference any more than you do your allergies
When I was your age, we didn't know much about all this. I knew I was different, but wanted to be "normal", so I got married. Big mistake. If I had the choice I sure wouldn't have put myself through what I've been through. If choices were possible, I'd probably choose to be bi, but that's never been an option for me. You're lucky you were born at a time when most everyone understands how we became what we are. Enjoy being honest with yourself and others.
Smaccoms
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Don't be silly, there's far more to sexuality, especially sexual relationships, than pure animal instinct. If we layer consent on top of this discussion, a clearer picture emerges. No one can deny that proactive choices are important within sexual relationships. As such, I say they are just as integral to sexual orientation as well.
It's just that no one wants to admit it because then they'd feel guilty for their natural preference...which is totally absurd. Most sexual attraction is learned anyway. You don't know which sexual activities do and don't feel good when you're a virgin! You must actually have sex a few times before you've garnered enough experience to seriously enjoy any of it.
So I guess sexuality is pure animal instinct the first couple of times you fuck. But that's only as a youngster. I say that if it's only ever pure animal instinct, then your sexuality never actually matured. You're still just an inexperienced & foolish little child.
"One day you will find a nice woman who will ungay you"
Conversion therapist or neutral gender sophisticated radical pansexual?
Conversion therapist or neutral gender sophisticated radical pansexual?
I struggled with it for a long time, and if there is another guy involved, i can easily get down with a lady, but when it comes down to it, the only thing that really gets me off is sucking dick and licking ass. Had I been able to cut it with a lady and be happy, life would have been easier for me and I would probably have a good relationship with my family... So i didn't choose it, and i wouldn't wish it on anyone.
malakos
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It's either Huffington, Buzzfeed or Autostraddle. I think all "progressive" newspapers now have similar "queer voices" sections where non-gay people write obscenely homophobic articles using those queer theory jargon
Our experiences have been very different but I do think we are both gay. In your case, you decided to marry early because, as you say, you wanted to be "normal". Personally, I felt gay from a very early age; I was always attracted to men, not women. It felt entirely natural to me, not a conscious 'choice' but part of my nature. I knew that I was different and actually it felt good. It wasn't all that difficult. I was lucky to have a group of gay friends at school (still gay, still friends) and came out in my late teens. In my mid 20s I let myself be seduced by a woman I liked and we had a monogamous relationship for a couple of years. This relationship was very much a choice and an experiment on my part. I wanted to see what it was like. I enjoyed the sex even if I was crap at it. But I had no thoughts of wanting to conform, of 'ungaying' myself or of self-conversion in any form. That was the last thing on my mind. I still fancied men and sometimes we'd talk about fancying the same men - no big deal. I don't at all regret the relationship but it was a sort of relief to get back to being gay when it was over. I've not had sex with another woman since and probably never will. I still feel essentially gay. Now some people will say it's impossible by definition to be gay and have had any kind of sexual contact with a female, that makes you 'at best' bi, but I think that's absolutist nonsense and denies real life experiences of many gay men. Just as you were married once but count yourself 100% gay now, I see myself as very much gay as well. I just chose to expand my sexual boundaries a bit and nothing bad happened - it wasn't the end of the world. I do think there is a fear of stepping outside one's 'natural' sexual identity, with it a denial of choice, a sense of betraying the tribe, mistrust of motives etc when this happens, and you see 100% 'straight' and 'gay' identities fiercely policed on both sides on this site. But it's frankly annoying when people who know nothing about your motivations start dictating to you what your sexuality can and can't be because your background and experiences don't exactly match their own.
Smaccoms
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Conversion therapist obviously. I would never tell another person what their personal life's journey through their own sexuality will look like or what it will be. That's awfully pretentious and conceited.
However, I would say that expanding your sexual attractions beyond homosexuality is strictly speaking a possibility...which I suppose you could term "ungay" if you like. I mean, this is all about what you want as you live your life, and how you go about getting it.
It's all about you for you. It's all about me for me.
Just because you're gay now doesn't mean you have to stay gay forever. But you can stay gay if you want to. It really doesn't matter; the choice is entirely up to you. The point is, change should be neither forbidden nor forced.
Change is constant...contentment is captured. Take a chill pill and let other people live their lives.
I wanted to change, and so I did. There's nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't mean I want to force others to do it with me. I can't force anyone into doing anything. I can only show them what worked for me and why.
Just because you're gay now doesn't mean you have to stay gay forever. But you can stay gay if you want to. It really doesn't matter; the choice is entirely up to you.
I'm sorry, but you are totally incorrect. I'm in my 60's and have tried not to be gay my entire adult life, including getting married. It's not possible my friend.
I'm sorry, but you are totally incorrect. I'm in my 60's and have tried not to be gay my entire adult life, including getting married. It's not possible my friend.
Smaccoms
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For pete sake, are you seriously assuming your experience of it to be universal? Like I said, pretentious and conceited. I get it, you are gay, that's awesome. I'm really happy for you. But then to go on and say, well all other non-straight men must be 100% gay too...just because I'm 100% gay! Not only is that very poor logic, it's also just not true.
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