Digital Gay Life?

[Smaccoms]

What does that have to do with being ashamed of one's sexuality?

 

[concupisys]

this opinion is solely based on my own personal experience as a gay man living in toronto, canada:

i live an entirely digital gay life.... why? because the gay scene sucks balls; that's why.... it's fun to think that homosexuals are all one big happy family, but they're not.... it's a sea of people who, after a lifetime of insecurity and discrimination, have categorized themselves in to these neat little compartments because anything outside that box disgusts them and they too in fact discriminate among their own kind.... that isn't necessarily 'GAY LIFE' though, and people such as myself who don't want any part of that sea of sub-sects have simply closed themselves off to the BS, labels, and stereotypes of the 'GAY SCENE'....

i do not troll around in seedy gay dives....

i do not want to dance to bad circuit music every weekend on drugs with my shirt off....

i do not want to have to wear a uniform such as leather chaps and harnesses, military surplus store knock-offs, or get a tramp stamp or bear paw tattooed on my skin....

i do not want to hang out in bath houses with tweakers who just want to bareback and snort lines....

i do not want to hang out with a bunch of pretentious bohemian hipsters and pretend i like bad art just because it makes me look cool....

i do not want to be an oversensitive gay rights activist who completely misses the point....

and i do NOT want to join forces with all these people every summer and march in a parade with them....

i know full well that there are a LOT of people who (in full or just in part) agree with me, and live their lives outside this bubble.... what makes the internet so great through all this is that the gay websites where people congregate are simply a way for homosexuals to meet other homosexuals without having to hide who and what they are because everyone there is just like them....

it doesn't overpower the atmosphere with unnecessary flamboyance....

it doesn't try to grope me while i'm sipping a beer at a bar or while i'm using the bathroom....

it doesn't look at me funny or treat me differently because i don't happen to be in 'uniform'....

i get to listen to good music while looking at and reading about the people around me....

and: i can be active about gay life and gay rights on public forums where my activism isn't blocking traffic, alienating people, or utilized for purposes that i don't personally endorse or believe in....

sorry to be blunt, but i think i made my point.... i could be totally bitter about it, but you know? i never did well living in bubbles.... it's entirely too constricting to the worldly and eclectic human being that i have become.... instead of fighting it or living in it only to be disappointed by it time after time, i let it go and do its own thing.... as far as i'm concerned, the gay 'SCENE' is shrinking because lots of other people feel the same way and are doing exactly what i'm doing....

 

[Smaccoms]

Listen, I don't deny the fact that the current gay scene isn't effective. It's not. That's actually part of my point. The point of the community should be to allow us to congregate so that we can build our own identities past our sexuality. Whether you like it or not, our sexuality is a part of our (and everyones) self-identity and always will be. If we can't get to know ourselves as a group, how our we going to be able to get to know ourselves as individuals? Self-identity has individual and social components to it. We cannot ignore one over the other. They all combine to create that overall identity. If you choose to ignore the community in spite, you choose to ignore yourself. It's not going to work, and is only going to create more problems. At the same time, there are problems with the gay community at large as well. This is why we need to become active and fight for change. How else are we ever going to get equal treatment? How else are we ever going completely know ourselves? I for one refuse to allow my sexuality to hold me, or any of us, back. This is how we break down that limitation. Are you with me?

 

[concupisys]

no offense Smaccoms, but if this is how you feel, i would suggest taking your issue with digital gay life off this forum and in to the streets.... it's rather a hypocrisy that you would use a digital medium to complain about this.... why not try leading by example and shutting your computer down?

 

[Smaccoms]

Due to the argument itself. People are now digitalized, not out in the streets. So OBVIOUSLY, this is where it's going to start. Plus, how in the world do you know what I do in my free time outside this forum? You're not very smart are you? No offense.
If you have a specific audience you wish to reach, you speak as directly to them as you can.

 

[concupisys]

hmm.... i can't say that your statements have been as direct and concise as they should be; hence you have confused people and then personally insulted their intelligence because you are not making your points clear or being very accepting of other people's points of view.... if that's the kind of BS i must learn to accept if i'm going to live my gay life outside the digital realm, i don't want any part of it....

 

[dazedandconfused]

But I think there is a misconception that anyone not out wants to be out but is scared to do so. Some people "dont come out" because sexuality is none of anyones dang business! Someone started a thread on an Ohio State board about the gayest cities in America and Ann Arbor was near the top of the list (and of course the ensuing Michigan jokes started). I pointed out this was childish and the gay jokes started towards me started. I feel someones sexuality is of any business to others and my sexual preference had no bearing on what I posted.

And also, there was a story about a teen boy, in I believe California, convicted about killing a gay kid who repeatedly came on to him. That sounds bad, but if you dug into the details, you would quickly find that supposidly the gay kid kept hitting on the straight kid and when he told the teachers and principal, they continually did nothing. Now, I absolutely do not condone at all killing the kid, but I can understand how the straight kid felt no one was on his side and he needed to take care of it himself.

I had a debate with someone a few years ago when Lance Bass came out. I think, in a way, coming out publicly HURTS the gay rights cause because it screams to a lot of people "oh, I should be treated special because of my sexuality." Whether that is or is not the aim, it does sometimes scream of that. I know gay individuals who feel they should be treated special because of them being gay. If A beats up B and B happens to be gay, it will usually result in a hate crimes scenario (where a lot of times it is not and ignoring the fact that beating someone up IS hate regardless of the reason). But if B beats up A, who is straight, it would be held to a lesser standards.

Some feel, rightly or wrongly, some in the gay community feel they should be treated special because of who they are.

I leave you with a roseanne episode reference. In one episode, roseanne's mother is arrested for drunk driving and is forced to go to AA. When she finally admits she is a drunk, she becomes this helpless victim who expected everyone to fall at her feet taking care of her. She thought she should be treated extra special because of her sexuality. Think about that for a second.

And do not pull the "you do not know what it is to be gay." Well, walk in my shoes. A lot of you do not know what it is to be obese in this world.

 

[concupisys]

i think you have 2 episodes mixed up.... bev came out like 2 seasons after she admitted she was an alcoholic....

 

[dazedandconfused]

didnt mean sexuality, her alcoholism.

 

[concupisys]

gotcha....

 

[travis1985]

The fact that people assume anyone who doesn't come out wants to but is scared, is very frustrating. If you try to explain that you're not scared to, but simply choose not to, they then say that you're self-loathing. It's ironic that some gay activists should expect all gay people to adhere to the same life choices as them.

 

[dazedandconfused]

Listen, I don't deny the fact that the current gay scene isn't effective. It's not. That's actually part of my point. The point of the community should be to allow us to congregate so that we can build our own identities past our sexuality. Whether you like it or not, our sexuality is a part of our (and everyones) self-identity and always will be. If we can't get to know ourselves as a group, how our we going to be able to get to know ourselves as individuals? Self-identity has individual and social components to it. We cannot ignore one over the other. They all combine to create that overall identity. If you choose to ignore the community in spite, you choose to ignore yourself. It's not going to work, and is only going to create more problems. At the same time, there are problems with the gay community at large as well. This is why we need to become active and fight for change. How else are we ever going to get equal treatment? How else are we ever going completely know ourselves? I for one refuse to allow my sexuality to hold me, or any of us, back. This is how we break down that limitation. Are you with me?

I disagree. If you dont want your sexuality to be apart of your identity, dont. I worked in athletics in college. I had sports-related friends and another set of friends that would not be caught dead at a sporting event. Neither really mixed during my time and quite frankly, as rabid as I am about sports, my closest friends did not give two hoots about sports. You choose what you want to identify yourself.

Again, it seems like you feel if you do not wear your sexuality on your sleeve, you are not healthy. That is not the case. I remember the west wing when a story about chief of staff cj cregg was a lesbian because she was a high school legend in basketball. She just passing made a joking reference to the allegations and at the end of the show, a reported off the record asks about it and she does not disclose her sexuality one way or another.

 

[concupisys]

dazedandconfused: i think you're going off on a tangent with all this coming out stuff.... this thread is not about coming out.... it's about the fact that what used to be a bustling and thriving gay community in large cities has dwindled due to the fact that more and more people are passing up the 'scene' locations and events to socialize in the digital realm.... i'm certainly not in the closet, and could really care less if and how you express your sexuality.... with all due respect, i think what you're talking about belongs in a thread of its own.... i'd suggest posting your comments in the 'relationships, discrimination and jealousy' section.... you will probably find that the topics there are more relative to what you're trying to put across....

 

[earllogjam]

Do you think it creates somewhat of a glass ceiling to our current community? Cruising online prevents live interactions, which leads to greater community exploits. The 70's eventually built community ties outside it's sexual exploits, right? They say that's where the strength seen in the same community during the 80's came from in the first place.

I suppose the complaint I was trying to voice was the fact that the gay community in the 70's had this deep-felt connection from what I gather; something our same community today seems to lack. I gather you didn't necessarily need to personally know someone in order to have a social connection with them. There was an automatic understanding between individuals within the community. I don't know, maybe I'm just being crazy.

I think the erosion of the gay community has more to do with gays assimilating and being accepted into mainstream culture. There is no real need to have an insular gay community anymore because you can live as a gay man and be accepted in more communities in the world. You don't have to relocate to a large urban center to live freely with a gay life anymore.

In some ways an on line community is more efficient and far reaching than anything in the physical world. The sex however sucks on line. lol. That is one thing that just can't be virtual and be good.

 

[Smaccoms]

I disagree. If you dont want your sexuality to be apart of your identity, dont. I worked in athletics in college. I had sports-related friends and another set of friends that would not be caught dead at a sporting event. Neither really mixed during my time and quite frankly, as rabid as I am about sports, my closest friends did not give two hoots about sports. You choose what you want to identify yourself.

Again, it seems like you feel if you do not wear your sexuality on your sleeve, you are not healthy. That is not the case. I remember the west wing when a story about chief of staff cj cregg was a lesbian because she was a high school legend in basketball. She just passing made a joking reference to the allegations and at the end of the show, a reported off the record asks about it and she does not disclose her sexuality one way or another.

You treat sexuality like a hobby in this post, like sports or collecting. Everyone has a sexual identity whether you like it or not. The expression of one's sexual identity can take an infinite amount of forms, but it is there nonetheless. One could argue sexual expression can take place even if the subject remains in the closet. It depends on the form of that individual's sexual expression.
The conscious identity of the human being is just as much social as it is personal. Without the social and personal aspects to one's identity, it is incomplete. This is why a lack of sexual expression to me means one sexual identity lacks even a foundation; it is incomplete at the most basic of levels.
I could say paragraphs more on this subject, but concupisys is right. It is off topic. I would like to discuss the topic with you further however in a more appropriate thread.
Personally, I think the gay community certainly needs to be re-evaluated and altered in specific aspects of it. It no longer meets the needs of many gay men. Since sexual identity has personal AND social aspects (just like human identity overall), the open community is vital to those men who do identify as gay. The community exists to serve the needs of it's members, who require a medium to express and build their own sexual identities and expressions. If this community does not serve the needs of it's members, the problem needs to be addressed. Think of it like our government; if it doesn't serve the needs of the people, it must be fixed or replaced completely.

 

[Smaccoms]

I think the erosion of the gay community has more to do with gays assimilating and being accepted into mainstream culture. There is no real need to have an insular gay community anymore because you can live as a gay man and be accepted in more communities in the world. You don't have to relocate to a large urban center to live freely with a gay life anymore.

In some ways an on line community is more efficient and far reaching than anything in the physical world. The sex however sucks on line. lol. That is one thing that just can't be virtual and be good.

In my personal opinion, that assimilation thus far is an illusion. We are not properly represented in many of the venues in which gender roles and identities are decided upon. Identifying as a gay man today, for example, still suggests a lack of a masculine identity. Society at large prevents a combination of the two (gay and masculine) because to be gay still means you are not as much a man. That what has been assimilated into our society and it's that identity which many gay men have adopted (imo).
I refuse such nonsense, however. It doesn't matter to me if society at large insists my sexual expression compromises my masculine identity. Among my friends and I, we know that not to be true. My self-identity therefore doesn't actually exist at the societal level (of America). It not yet accepted sch a concept.
That's what I believe anyway. What of you?

 

[travis1985]

I hate to look like a douchebag to people who won't like to hear this, but it's possible that you don't know everything at 22.

 

[Smaccoms]

I hate to look like a douchebag to people who won't like to hear this, but it's possible that you don't know everything at 22.

This contributes nothing to the conversation at hand. The very purpose of these discussions to explore what we already know and expand on it. Express our current beliefs and philosophies with others. This comment only acts to disrupt and even stop that activity. This I do not appreciate

 

[travis1985]

This contributes nothing to the conversation at hand. The very purpose of these discussions to explore what we already know and expand on it. Express our current beliefs and philosophies with others. This comment only acts to disrupt and even stop that activity. This I do not appreciate

Please. You've been making no visible effort to expand on your philosophies by being open to the input of others.

 

[Smaccoms]

Please. You've been making no visible effort to expand on your philosophies by being open to the input of others.

I attempt to respond by describing what I believe and why. If the opposition fails to counter-respond, the exchange ends. I tend to respond to the points I disagree with, giving long descriptions as to how and why I disagree. Since I am so opinionated on some of these topics, my responses can be very strong. Other times, they can simply be descriptive. However, unless I feel greatly insulted, I do try to keep things civil. Without a counter-response, I cannot make an effort to expand on anything anywhere. The one exception to this rule is if the foundation of my knowledge on a specific topic is incomplete. If I feel my foundation is extensive enough, I respond as an tutor. If I do not, I respond more along the lines of a pupil. Do you feel that description is accurate?